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The 757 Hitting the Pentagon

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posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 11:18 AM
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Choose the most likely canidate that could have caused the damage at the Pentagon

Boeing 707


Boeing 720


Boeing 727


Boeing 737
external image

Global Hawk
external image

Navy S-3 Viking



Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 6/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]




posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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A few questions in no particular order:

1. Why would they need to fly a Global Hawk into the Pentagon and risk such obvious incongruence with the official story, when they already had the technology to remote commandeer the original 757, and had (assuming the theory is true) already successfully done so with the two 767s that hit the towers?


2. If it was an engine that created this hole on the third ring...

external image

...then where did the engine actually punch through the facade when there is only this hole?

external image

Did the engine get sucked through this hole? Did the nose create the hole in the third ring? Is the nose of a 757 heavy enough and hardened enough to punch through all those walls and still make it through the last one with a fiery blast (judging by the soot damage), or is the nose only made of light-weight carbon-fibre or aluminium? Could this hole have been created by overpressure from the fuel explosion?


3. Exactly how long was the time span from when they knew that "America was under attack" until the 3rd plane hit the Pentagon? Does anyone have the timeline? I know Zaphod has talked often about the actual time required to scramble jets, but just how long exactly did they have for the Pentagon plane? Did they have enough time to scramble jets to protect the global command center of the US military.


4. Does a 757 become effectively invisible when you switch the transponder off, or does it simply stop transmitting the identification information? Once the transponder is off, does that mean the only way to find the plane is by spotting it with the naked eye? If so, then why does the US government spend billions and billions of dollars attempting to make the B2 bomber radar-invisible?


5. If NORAD radar only points 'offshore', then does that mean that if a US bomber pilot suddenly lost his marbles and went rogue suicidal within the borders of the US, that he could wreak havoc bombing all over the United States and no one would be able to find nor stop him because there's no radar "pointing in"? Could the radar from the airport near the Pentagon have possibly been used to track the incoming 757?


Thanks for your time.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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missile theory 101

RUMSFELD(once again): Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filled with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center.

okay, he DIDN'T say 'missile' in place of 'plane', he said, "using an American Airlines flight (snip), AND the missile".

why did he start mumbling all of a sudden, LOLOLOL?!



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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Oh, and one more question:

6. Is it just me, or does the Global Hawk look like the alien from Aliens the movie?




In space, no one can hear you scream...
In U.S. air-space, no one can see you on radar...





posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:15 PM
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Very apt comparison, wecomeinpeace! I was kinda thinking it looked like Orca the killer whale, but the Alien fits,too.
I can answer a couple of your questions. I don't have the exact timetables in front of me, but any of about a dozen 9-11 sites could provide you with the exact timeline. Just do a google for the time of the 9/11 flight impacts. There is some controversy as to whether or not they could have scrambled fighters to prevent the second WTC tower from being hit, but if I understand correctly, it is fairy agreed upon, even by backers of the official story, that they could have scrambled fighters to get Flight 77, if they had known what was happening. Or so the story goes.
As to your question about planes becoming invisible to the naked eye unless the transponder is on, I just had a co-worker of mine call her husband, who is a pilot, to ask about that---I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know off the top of my head, but I didn't. I guess it has been several years since that was the case. Today, all commercial aircraft can be tracked by radar according to my co-worker's husband---in fact, it is the law that they be equipped with tracking equipment. So that makes the disappearance from radar all the more mysterious. The only time a commercial aircraft in the US is not on radar is when it is on the ground. I thought that possibly shutting off the transponder would do it, but evidently that hasn't been the case for quite some time---or so I'm told by one who ought to know. So, it gets even curioser.
Just when I think I might be able to go ahead and believe that a 757 did, indeed, hit the Pentagon, something seems to come up that shakes my belief in the official story.
---Ryan



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

3. Exactly how long was the time span from when they knew that "America was under attack" until the 3rd plane hit the Pentagon? Does anyone have the timeline? I know Zaphod has talked often about the actual time required to scramble jets, but just how long exactly did they have for the Pentagon plane? Did they have enough time to scramble jets to protect the global command center of the US military.


4. Does a 757 become effectively invisible when you switch the transponder off, or does it simply stop transmitting the identification information? Once the transponder is off, does that mean the only way to find the plane is by spotting it with the naked eye? If so, then why does the US government spend billions and billions of dollars attempting to make the B2 bomber radar-invisible?


5. If NORAD radar only points 'offshore', then does that mean that if a US bomber pilot suddenly lost his marbles and went rogue suicidal within the borders of the US, that he could wreak havoc bombing all over the United States and no one would be able to find nor stop him because there's no radar "pointing in"? Could the radar from the airport near the Pentagon have possibly been used to track the incoming 757?




Pardon me if a total lack of sleep makes me harder to understand, but I'll give a shot at these for now.

Point 3- According to the official timeline, at 8:13am the last transmission is heard by ATC from American 11. This wouldn't automatically set off the alert process to NORAD however, as it could be equipment/mechanical malfunction, or he could be down.

The initial impact is officially shown at 8:46am at the first WTC tower. At this point it is initially assumed that it was a lost pilot or an accident. The first realization of the possibility of an attack was at 9am when the Pentagon moved their alert status ot Alpha. It ws confirmed at 9:02 when United 175 impacted the side of the second tower.

NORAD was notified about Flight 77 at 9:24am, and scrambled fighters from Langley to attempt to intercept it, The two F-16s were airborne at 9:30, which even for Alert Fighters is a VERY quick response time, however the flight impacted at 9:37. If the FAA had notified NORAD sooner, instead of waiting 30 minutes, then there's at least a decent chance that the fighters from Langley may have been able to intercept it.

Point 4. The plane simply stops transmitting it's identification to the radar sets. However if it is over 18,000 feet it's effectively invisible. The ATC radar Primary Sets can track a radar return from the plane itself, however due to the high volume of traffic it is only effective up to 18,000. It will even track birds under the right conditions. The Secondary Set, which is used by ATC Centers only picks up the transponder signal. It is used from 18,000 higher, where it won't have the large amounts of clutter that the Primary would have from the skin returns.

You have to remember that most of the radars in the US are ATC, which uses Primary and Secondary types. Military radars are all of the Primary type, which will track higher, and uses specialized software to weed out cluttler. Since it's specialized, it can be used to eliminate slower moving targets that might be birds, or small planes, etc. You can't do that with ATC radar, since the point of it is to track ALL planes in the area. If you tried to use a Primary System to track everything at all altitudes, your ATC people would simply be totally overwhelmed.

Point 5. The radar at Dulles DID track Flight 77 on the way in. Along with several other sets. There was intermittent contact with several of the flights before impact. It IS possible to track the planes, however on 9/11 nobody expected anything like this to happen, simply because until then it never HAD happened.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by RyanC
Very apt comparison, wecomeinpeace! I was kinda thinking it looked like Orca the killer whale, but the Alien fits,too.
I can answer a couple of your questions. I don't have the exact timetables in front of me, but any of about a dozen 9-11 sites could provide you with the exact timeline. Just do a google for the time of the 9/11 flight impacts. There is some controversy as to whether or not they could have scrambled fighters to prevent the second WTC tower from being hit, but if I understand correctly, it is fairy agreed upon, even by backers of the official story, that they could have scrambled fighters to get Flight 77, if they had known what was happening. Or so the story goes.
As to your question about planes becoming invisible to the naked eye unless the transponder is on, I just had a co-worker of mine call her husband, who is a pilot, to ask about that---I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't know off the top of my head, but I didn't. I guess it has been several years since that was the case. Today, all commercial aircraft can be tracked by radar according to my co-worker's husband---in fact, it is the law that they be equipped with tracking equipment. So that makes the disappearance from radar all the more mysterious. The only time a commercial aircraft in the US is not on radar is when it is on the ground. I thought that possibly shutting off the transponder would do it, but evidently that hasn't been the case for quite some time---or so I'm told by one who ought to know. So, it gets even curioser.
Just when I think I might be able to go ahead and believe that a 757 did, indeed, hit the Pentagon, something seems to come up that shakes my belief in the official story.
---Ryan


Yeah they can be tracked on radar. If you want to use a Primary System and completely overwhelm the guy trying to read the screen, because he's seeing everything in the air around him.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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why were there no arabs on board, zaphod?

(i disagree with most of your above points, but this one FACT blows the whole official lie out of the water, so i won't bother point by point bulldada.)



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

3. Exactly how long was the time span from when they knew that "America was under attack" until the 3rd plane hit the Pentagon? Does anyone have the timeline? I know Zaphod has talked often about the actual time required to scramble jets, but just how long exactly did they have for the Pentagon plane? Did they have enough time to scramble jets to protect the global command center of the US military.


4. Does a 757 become effectively invisible when you switch the transponder off, or does it simply stop transmitting the identification information? Once the transponder is off, does that mean the only way to find the plane is by spotting it with the naked eye? If so, then why does the US government spend billions and billions of dollars attempting to make the B2 bomber radar-invisible?


5. If NORAD radar only points 'offshore', then does that mean that if a US bomber pilot suddenly lost his marbles and went rogue suicidal within the borders of the US, that he could wreak havoc bombing all over the United States and no one would be able to find nor stop him because there's no radar "pointing in"? Could the radar from the airport near the Pentagon have possibly been used to track the incoming 757?




Pardon me if a total lack of sleep makes me harder to understand, but I'll give a shot at these for now.

Point 3- According to the official timeline, at 8:13am the last transmission is heard by ATC from American 11. This wouldn't automatically set off the alert process to NORAD however, as it could be equipment/mechanical malfunction, or he could be down.

The initial impact is officially shown at 8:46am at the first WTC tower. At this point it is initially assumed that it was a lost pilot or an accident. The first realization of the possibility of an attack was at 9am when the Pentagon moved their alert status ot Alpha. It ws confirmed at 9:02 when United 175 impacted the side of the second tower.

NORAD was notified about Flight 77 at 9:24am, and scrambled fighters from Langley to attempt to intercept it, The two F-16s were airborne at 9:30, which even for Alert Fighters is a VERY quick response time, however the flight impacted at 9:37. If the FAA had notified NORAD sooner, instead of waiting 30 minutes, then there's at least a decent chance that the fighters from Langley may have been able to intercept it.

Point 4. The plane simply stops transmitting it's identification to the radar sets. However if it is over 18,000 feet it's effectively invisible. The ATC radar Primary Sets can track a radar return from the plane itself, however due to the high volume of traffic it is only effective up to 18,000. It will even track birds under the right conditions. The Secondary Set, which is used by ATC Centers only picks up the transponder signal. It is used from 18,000 higher, where it won't have the large amounts of clutter that the Primary would have from the skin returns.

You have to remember that most of the radars in the US are ATC, which uses Primary and Secondary types. Military radars are all of the Primary type, which will track higher, and uses specialized software to weed out cluttler. Since it's specialized, it can be used to eliminate slower moving targets that might be birds, or small planes, etc. You can't do that with ATC radar, since the point of it is to track ALL planes in the area. If you tried to use a Primary System to track everything at all altitudes, your ATC people would simply be totally overwhelmed.

Point 5. The radar at Dulles DID track Flight 77 on the way in. Along with several other sets. There was intermittent contact with several of the flights before impact. It IS possible to track the planes, however on 9/11 nobody expected anything like this to happen, simply because until then it never HAD happened.


To add to your fifth point, Yeager Airport in Charleston, WV along with Air Traffic Control in Indianapolis also tracked flight 77 once the plane left D.C. airspace. Flight 11 was hijacked at about a quarter until 8 in the morning, so that would be almost a two hour window between the first hijacking and the time whatever it way that struck the Pentagon.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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Sure it was two hours, but that was from the HIJACKING. It would have taken time for them to figure out it wasn't a mechanical problem, or a crash, and then notify NORAD, etc. So there's probably an hour right there.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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That still strikes me as plenty of time confirm that there's a problem and mount some time of response. We're really being asked to believe that on the day of the worst hijacking incidents in the history of the country, there was also a complete operational breakdown of more or less everything in terms of our air defenses---again, probably the biggest operational breakdown in history. In order to beleive the official story, then, as peddled by Team Bush, you must believe that:
a. we had the biggest systematic intelligence failure in history in not knowing in advance about these attacks
b.we had the biggest breakdown of air defense in the history of the county
c.we were subjected to the worst terrorist attack in the history of the country
Add to this that no skyscraper in the history of the world had ever collapsed due to fire, and we get three of them in one day with WTC 1,2, and 7.
Now, I don't mean to imply, Zaphod, that you believe the official story. You might, but I get the distinct impression that you think it was an inside job, but that a plane did hit the Pentagon. I might be wrong about that and I sure don't mean to speak for you, that's just the impression I get. If that is your view, then I do not mean to direct that little list up there to you---I only put it together to show just how many historical firsts one must accept in order to believe the official government line.
---Ryan



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Have you ever read about what had to happen before fighters were scrambled to intercept a hijacked plane? It was a joke.

The individual controller would attempt to contact the plane, and other planes nearby to see if they could see him. Then he'd take it to his supervisor, and HE would try to contact the plane, then the airline operations center, and have them try to text the plane over their datalink. If THAT failed, they notifed the FAA command center, who would try to track the plane, and eventually make the decision to notify NORAD. Once NORAD was notified, the on duty commander had to look at all the information from the FAA, make the decision to scramble fighters, decide which base to scramble them from, get the word to the base over the radio, the pilots had to get into the planes, start engines, take off, and FIND the plane to intercept it.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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Zaphod is absolutely right, you only have to watch programs on mid-air collisions and such like even to notice how frighteningly long it takes for anyone to notice things and act on them. There is(was) so many procedures to go through it is scary stuff. I know and have known people who are involved in flying and air traffic control and if most people realised the 'truth' so to speak then they would probably never fly again.
And the information isn't concealed by any means, in fact it is there if you watch air traffic disaster programs and do some reading.
People seem to expect all this information to be handed to them on a plate or something these days, but that just isn't possible if nothing else. You have to do some researcgh and interpretation of your own, and not rely on a few 'key' figures' opinions.
I've done flying myself before my finances became more restricted, though only light aircraft, and it's unbelievable really when you experience it from the 'inside'.

It's a bit like when you see that dream car on telly and always pine for it, but when you get to see it close up and drive it it's crappy and flawed.

And as someone said, why would anything other than the airliner fly into the Pentagon? Even if it was some conspiracy it makes no sense to use something that has the potential to be identified by thousands of people when it is much easier to just fly what people are 'supposed' to see. (If you buy that theory).
Some of these schemes that people seem to believe are beyond belief, sheesh anyone has to admit there is a possibility of foul play but ideas like that are pure fantasy. Common sense should prevail if nothing else when considering these options.

[edit on 6-10-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by billybob
why were there no arabs on board, zaphod?

(i disagree with most of your above points, but this one FACT blows the whole official lie out of the water, so i won't bother point by point bulldada.)


is this statement true?

if so, a rebuttal would be nice



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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I can find manifests either way. Some that don't show any arab names, some that do. *shrug* No idea which is true.

Here's one thing that I read, that personally seems kinda silly, but wouldn't surprise me if true.

Re: passenger lists

"I have heard that these names were purposely removed because having them mixed with the victims would have caused great emotional distress for the victims' friends and families. Almost as if the innocent dead were being further damaged by having the perpetrators' names listed along with theirs."

American Airlines flight 77 manifest: 58 passengers were aboard, but only has 57 listed, below. The missing passenger is Hani Saleh Hanjour, the terrorist suspected of flying the plane into the Pentagon because he was the only pilot among the five suspected hijackers aboard.

"His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket."

Khalid al-Mihdhar, suspected hijacker

Nawaf al-Hazmi, suspected hijacker

Salem Al Hazmi, suspected hijacker

Dr. [Paul Ambrose]?, 32, physician.

[Yeneneh Betru]?, 35, Burbank, Calif., director of medical affairs,

[MJ Booth]?

[Bernard Brown]?, 11, student, Leckie Elementary School (National Geographic Society educational trip)...

[Norma Khan]?, 45, Reston, Va., nonprofit organization manager

[Karen A. Kincaid]?, 40, Washington, D.C., lawyer,

[Dong Lee]?, 48, Leesburg, Va., engineer, Boeing Co.

[Dora Menchaca]?, 45, Santa Monica, Calif.,

Majed Moqued, suspected hijacker

[Christopher Newton]?, 38, Arlington, Va.,

Barbara K. Olson, 45,

www.marsearthconnection.com...



[edit on 10/6/2005 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 10/6/2005 by Zaphod58]



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Point 3- According to the official timeline, at 8:13am the last transmission is heard by ATC from American 11. This wouldn't automatically set off the alert process to NORAD however, as it could be equipment/mechanical malfunction, or he could be down.

The initial impact is officially shown at 8:46am at the first WTC tower. At this point it is initially assumed that it was a lost pilot or an accident. The first realization of the possibility of an attack was at 9am when the Pentagon moved their alert status ot Alpha. It ws confirmed at 9:02 when United 175 impacted the side of the second tower.

NORAD was notified about Flight 77 at 9:24am, and scrambled fighters from Langley to attempt to intercept it, The two F-16s were airborne at 9:30, which even for Alert Fighters is a VERY quick response time, however the flight impacted at 9:37. If the FAA had notified NORAD sooner, instead of waiting 30 minutes, then there's at least a decent chance that the fighters from Langley may have been able to intercept it.

So if four planes suddenly drop off radar and go missing at the same time, it takes 1 hour and 10 minutes before NORAD is notified to scramble jets, even if 30 minutes earlier, one of those planes crashed into a major building? Is that correct?


Point 4. The plane simply stops transmitting it's identification to the radar sets. However if it is over 18,000 feet it's effectively invisible. The ATC radar Primary Sets can track a radar return from the plane itself, however due to the high volume of traffic it is only effective up to 18,000. It will even track birds under the right conditions. The Secondary Set, which is used by ATC Centers only picks up the transponder signal. It is used from 18,000 higher, where it won't have the large amounts of clutter that the Primary would have from the skin returns.

You have to remember that most of the radars in the US are ATC, which uses Primary and Secondary types. Military radars are all of the Primary type, which will track higher, and uses specialized software to weed out cluttler. Since it's specialized, it can be used to eliminate slower moving targets that might be birds, or small planes, etc. You can't do that with ATC radar, since the point of it is to track ALL planes in the area. If you tried to use a Primary System to track everything at all altitudes, your ATC people would simply be totally overwhelmed.

Sorry, Zaph, can you explain this again a little more clearly? I'm a little confused by your wording. Either you've got primary and secondary mixed up, or I have.


Point 5. The radar at Dulles DID track Flight 77 on the way in. Along with several other sets. There was intermittent contact with several of the flights before impact. It IS possible to track the planes, however on 9/11 nobody expected anything like this to happen, simply because until then it never HAD happened.


But I thought that the US air force and military in general had been trained to deal with hijacked planes for years. I thought that's what the NORAD interception protocol was designed for. Didn't the US govt. run training and contingency studies against exactly such an eventuality back in the 70's? Even on the ground, don't the SEALs train for extraction of terrorist hostages from planes? Did the US government and military, the greatest cause of terrorist anger in the modern world, honestly have no clue that planes could ever be hijacked within the US and flown into buildings like the White House, Capitol Hill, etc? If not, then why did they have security at airports in the first place?

It seems for every question answered, ten more are created...



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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They didn't drop off at the same time, but the logjam with the system was always with the FAA. NORAD can't tie all the FAA radars, and OTH-B radars, and the other military radars together to create one big picture. They have to rely on the FAA to monitor the civilian side of things, and notify them about the need to intercept an aircraft.

Ok, Primary, Secondary, and Military Radar Systems.

Primary- Tracks IFF and skin paint from ground to 18,000 feet. Not used above 18,000 because the large number of targets it would have to track would overwhelm the operators and the system.

Secondary- Tracks IFF ONLY from 18,000 feet and above. If you turn off your transponder, you are invisible to Secondary systems.

Military- Operates a Primary system that tracks skin paints and IFF, however has the software to rule out certain targets and ignore them. Since you aren't as concerned about certain flight parameters, they can be ruled out as valid targets by the software in a military set. The parameters can be changed at will using the computer. The FAA sets don't have this ability because they ARE concerned about all aspects of flight with the planes they are tracking.

Here's an interesting bit about Hani Hanjour I just found in the Washington Post.

Hani Hanjour
Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam. In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough. He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia, but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket.
www.washingtonpost.com...

Notice that his failed attempt to become a pilot was in 1996. Later, in 1999 he DID receive his commercial pilots license, meaning he could easily have flown the 757 into the Pentagon.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
They didn't drop off at the same time, but the logjam with the system was always with the FAA. NORAD can't tie all the FAA radars, and OTH-B radars, and the other military radars together to create one big picture. They have to rely on the FAA to monitor the civilian side of things, and notify them about the need to intercept an aircraft.

Ok, we're narrowing it down here. Thanks for your patience, I've never investigated this aspect of the events in-depth. So, something happened at the FAA that they didn't notify NORAD that four planes had gona AWOL. So exactly when did the FAA decide to notify NORAD? What is the standard procedure and time-frame for notification? Is there procedural documentation available? If not, are there any precedents to measure this by? Did the FAA truly not realize that something was up until 9am, 14 minutes after a 767 had crashed into WTC1?


Military- Operates a Primary system that tracks skin paints and IFF, however has the software to rule out certain targets and ignore them. Since you aren't as concerned about certain flight parameters, they can be ruled out as valid targets by the software in a military set. The parameters can be changed at will using the computer. The FAA sets don't have this ability because they ARE concerned about all aspects of flight with the planes they are tracking.

So as I understand it, planes above 18,000 feet can't be tracked if they have their transponders turned off. So as I said, does this mean a rogue suicide pilot could bomb all over the continental US and no one could find him as long as he stayed above 18,000 feet and had the transponder turned off?

And if I've interpreted the above 18,000 feet invisible plane threshold correctly, then the next question is at what stage would the pilot of Flight 77 have had to descend below 18,000 feet to strike the Pentagon? Could he do this in the last 5 minutes, or would there have to be a gradual descent? If he was flying on autopilot, could he conceivably program it to stay above 18,000 feet until the last minute? Or would the software not allow this?



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 05:33 PM
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As far as the FAA goes, they have a list of steps about as long as your arm that they follow before notifying NORAD. The first assumption is a mechanical malfunction. If there are other planes in the area they will have them try to look for the missing plane. If they can't find him, then they ask them to look for smoke on the ground, or other evidence of a catastrophic event. After THAT, they notifiy the immediate supervisor, who will contact the airline and notify them that they are missing an airplane, and asking them to send a message over the datalink that goes straight to the cockpit. They will try for several attempts before responding BACK to the FAA supervisor that they couildn't contact the missing plane. At that point the supervisor goes to the FAA control center, and notifes them of everything that happened up to that point, any suspicions they have, and any other information. THAT is when the FAA notifies NORAD to scramble fighters. You can be looking at an hour of in some cases more before NORAD is notified. I haven't really investigated into the documentation, but I'm sure I can get my hands on something for you. Give me a few days.

For at least a short time a bomber crew that went nuts probably WOULD get away with it, at least until an AWACS got airborne, if there wasn't one up there already.

As far as descending, he could have stayed up above 18,000 until the last 8-10 minutes of the flight, which roughly corresponds to what I remember hearing. Dulles ATC was able to see him descending a few minutes before he made the turn and then went into the building. Autopilot will descend at any rate of descent that you input into it, however if you exceed certain perameters, such as IIRC a 45 degree wing bank, the autopilot will automatically disengage.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
As far as the FAA goes, they have a list of steps about as long as your arm that they follow before notifying NORAD. The first assumption is a mechanical malfunction.


I remember reading somewhere that Flight 77 stopped responding at 8:50am (someone correct me if this is wrong), 22 minutes after Flight 11 was confirmed hijacked at 8:28. That means that Flight 77 flew through American air-space for 47 minutes without anything happening, without anyone notifying NORAD, and without anybody being able to find it, even after Flight 11 had been hijacked AND crashed into WTC1 at 8:46am.
Wow. I've never looked into the hijacking/NORAD timeline in detail before. Does anybody seriously still believe this?! Does anyone have any documentation or media reports of precedents that show the FAA is usually this slow to notify NORAD??


For at least a short time a bomber crew that went nuts probably WOULD get away with it, at least until an AWACS got airborne, if there wasn't one up there already.


Why only a "short time"? Do you mean that in such a situation, NORAD would have planes up in a few minutes, but after a passenger plane has crashed into a building in New York, that the response to just 3 other missing/hijacked planes would take upwards of 45 minutes, and even then not make it in time and not even be able to find the planes? That seems a little far-fetched.


As far as descending, he could have stayed up above 18,000 until the last 8-10 minutes of the flight, which roughly corresponds to what I remember hearing.

So according to the 18,000 feet radar invisibility rule, that means Flight 77 would have been visible on radar for 10 minutes, plus the time taken to do that big loop in order to hit the pre-strengthened side of the Pentagon. That's about 12-14 minutes. So Flight 77 reappeared in the visible radar world at 9:24 at the latest, which is when the jets were scrambled. So the jets that were scrambled and up at 9:30, did they head straight for Flight 77? How far away were they from the Pentagon? Did they have enough time to reach it? Did the FAA/NORAD have any indication that Flight 77 was headed for Washington before this time?


Dulles ATC was able to see him descending a few minutes before he made the turn and then went into the building. Autopilot will descend at any rate of descent that you input into it, however if you exceed certain perameters, such as IIRC a 45 degree wing bank, the autopilot will automatically disengage.

So what were the flying skills of this dude? I read somewhere he tried to rent a single-engine plane but was refused because he couldn't fly it. What were the flight specifics of the turn that he made over the Pentagon? Would they exceed the software limits of the autopilot, causing it to switch off and requiring this guy to perform the turn and descent himself? Or could the plane have been turned like that and flown inches off the ground into the Pentagon wall completely on autopilot?



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