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NEWS: Bush Declares War on Porn

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posted on Sep, 25 2005 @ 12:14 AM
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Uhm. Porn is legal. So is sex. If not for silly religious types, prostitution would be legal as well (i've never understood why paying people to have sex on camera isn't considered prostitution, but it's good it isn't).

The puritans still have too much influence.

Food is good.
Clothing is good.
Shelter is good.
Sex is good.




posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 07:03 AM
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see, porn can be directly linked to crime.

"About 15 people were arrested for looting, including some at an adult video store." Lake Charles Police Chief Donald Dixon.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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According to the US supreme court pornography = "images without any artistic merrit, that can cause sexual thoughts"

.....mhhhh that sounds to me like .....every commercial on TV.... when are they going to ban those... ?



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Whenever I see/hear the phrase "Bush declares(d) war on... " I can't help but laugh, just thinking of how screwed we are, because the people of this country actually elected this guy.

Yea, the war on drugs works really well, and even drugs consist of a material item that can be controlled to some extent (but still doesn't work). Porn is on the internet...as well as almost anything illegal that you could imagine, available to be shipped to your front door. Good luck trying to stop it, and also, who cares?

Spend the money on poverty, disaster relief (lower class/minorities excluded of course), maybe researching a new means for energy other than our soon to be depleted petroleum supply...spend it on anything besides another "war" which CAN'T BE WON.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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I hear they're filming a Full House reunion show titled "Full House: Twins Filled" that is being promoted as one of those "very special" episodes that try and teach us the evils of something, in this case porn. The Olsen twins will reprise their role and are now all grown up and, you guessed it, porn stars.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by Crakeur]



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Shoktek
Porn is on the internet...as well as almost anything illegal that you could imagine, available to be shipped to your front door. Good luck trying to stop it, and also, who cares?


The people who care are religious nutjobs who are more concerned with what other people are doing in their livingrooms and bedrooms than they are with 'collateral damage' in Iraq, or whatever the conjured threat du jour is. These are the dominoarians who see the collapse of society lurking around every activity the puritans said was immoral.

Alcohol? Society's collapsing! Batten down the hatches and pass Prohibition. Oh we made things worse, we'll repeal it.

Terrorists? Society's collapsing! Batten down the hatches and kill everyone in the middle east. You say we attacked people who had nothing to do with 9/11? I'm not listening. La la la bomb 'em back to the stone age.

Drugs? Society's collapsing! Batten down the hatches and pass drug Prohibition. Oh we made things worse you say? La la la I'm not listening, more drug laws!

Prostitution? Society's collapsing! Batten down the hatches and criminalize it. Oh, we made things worse you say? La la la I'm not listening, more prostitution laws!

Gay parriage? Society's collapsing! Batten down the hatches and criminalize it!

Porn? Society's collapsing!

Well, you get the idea. All a 'leader' has to do is claim the sky is falling and the sheap will fall in line without question.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Yep, it's just that almost all of these issues are just PERSONAL ISSUES. They really have no effect or relation to our society...that is, until we MAKE THEM a sociological issue by trying to control them. Which only makes the problem worse.

The only reason you would overdose from heroin is from buying it off the street, which is very unpredictable. This is due to prohibition. If drugs were legal, people would pay less money to buy them, society would pay no money to enforce their prohibition, people could actually go get their fix without worrying about getting a bad dose, or having an impure product.

These are all just personal issues, that we are trying to turn into issues in our society. The only reason for this is because our society is run by people who need to control other people's decisions. Drugs, porn, sex, etc...issues that aren't real issues at all, and should be let alone. Focus on real problems, such as an administration filled with liars, sending our kids off to war for no reason. These things are all a problem in our society right now because we MADE THEM A PROBLEM. But they are all personal issues.

Whatever happened to the idea of having a "free" society? Yea, maybe that would have worked a little bit better..

[edit on 26-9-2005 by Shoktek]



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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All these Wars, on drugs, on terror, on porn. It reminds me of the "Land Shark " skit on SNL .

They're just smoke screens for ripping off the public. Money from your pocket to theirs .

Wake up!



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by Shoktek
The only reason you would overdose from heroin is from buying it off the street, which is very unpredictable. This is due to prohibition. If drugs were legal, people would pay less money to buy them, society would pay no money to enforce their prohibition, people could actually go get their fix without worrying about getting a bad dose, or having an impure product.


Try working at a club and coming back with the idea drugs [or even alcohol is good.]

You ever seen someone OD?

Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?

Drugs should not be legal, yes what you do to your body is all well and good but not when what you do to your body harms innocent people.

Although I am sure chasing the dragon, while a 3month year old baby is fine for its health? Yep let's all make drugs legal.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

You ever seen someone OD?


No, but it happens because they dose too much due to product strength variability on the street. If drugs were regulated and legal, they would be the same standard of quality as prescriptions, allowing exact dosages to be known, and clean products.



Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?


Yes, and it's no worse than someone who's had too much to drink at the bar...it's all about responsibility with anything you do



Drugs should not be legal, yes what you do to your body is all well and good but not when what you do to your body harms innocent people.


Drunk drivers kill way more people than any drug user...alcohol and tobacco kill more people each year than illegal drugs have killed ever since our recording



Although I am sure chasing the dragon, while a 3month year old baby is fine for its health? Yep let's all make drugs legal.


Smoking and alcohol aren't any worse? Here's an interesting fact...mothers in the US and europe used to give their newborn babies morphine to calm them down and put them to sleep...it was quite common. Didn't do any harm, as long as correct dosages were used.

Almost any illegal/recreational drug is well documented and proven to be safer than alcohol and tobacco...alcohol is legal, and people drive drunk and kill others. Drug use is a social issue because we made it one. If alcohol and tobacco are perfectly fine to buy over the counter, the others should be as well...if someone can't use alcohol or any drug responsibly, they will pay the consequences in time..and it will be their own fault if they don't get help. But they shouldn't be thrown in jail for using them. It's also pretty pathetic that drug dealers are put in jail longer than most rapists and murderers in this country.

If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have any of the problems associated with them anymore. The problems are caused by the prohibition. Same thing happened with alcohol. Same thing will happen with anything else that the govt. will try to regulate and control.



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Try working at a club and coming back with the idea drugs [or even alcohol is good.]

You ever seen someone OD?

Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?

Drugs should not be legal,


You're assuming that laws against drugs improve society. History demonstrates otherwise.

You'll notcie that heroine and '___' are currently extremely illegal, and have been for quite some time. How is it then that you have observed people OD, or have bad trips, or acting up unde the influence in public? After all, these things don't happen if the activity in question is illegal, right?

With drug prohibition, we not only have widespread drug usage, but we also have 50% of the prison population filled with people who's only crime was consumption or posession. We also have widespread criminal gang activity and public corruption fueled by high illicit drug profits. We have guerilla wars being fought as well. Actual people are dying and losing liberty in an attempt to enforce the police state necessary to criminalize what is fundamentally not harmful to the innocent.

If you don't believe this, study the history of alcohol prohibition and the rise in violent crime that immediately followed, and the subsequent diminishing of it after prohibition was repealed. Then explain why other drugs are different.

If there are drugs that turn you into a homicidal maniac, then sure, criminalize those, but why everything else?

If the purpose of law is to increase safety, repealing drug laws is the clear course of action.

However, other laws such as child neglect/abuse, driving under the influence, etc., should of course continue to be enforced against drug users, just as they are in general.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
You're assuming that laws against drugs improve society. History demonstrates otherwise.


Really?


Originally posted by spamandham
You'll notcie that heroine and '___' are currently extremely illegal, and have been for quite some time. How is it then that you have observed people OD, or have bad trips, or acting up unde the influence in public? After all, these things don't happen if the activity in question is illegal, right?


I work part time as a Dj in one of the U.Ks largest clubs, I've seen people O.D. on almost every drug that is out there. It is fairly common place to find Es, speed, weed and '___' being taken in clubs.


Originally posted by spamandham
With drug prohibition, we not only have widespread drug usage, but we also have 50% of the prison population filled with people who's only crime was consumption or posession. We also have widespread criminal gang activity and public corruption fueled by high illicit drug profits. We have guerilla wars being fought as well. Actual people are dying and losing liberty in an attempt to enforce the police state necessary to criminalize what is fundamentally not harmful to the innocent.


And? If you make heroin, coc aine, etc, legal it'll still come from this places. These drug lords will be able to sell more drugs to a larger population and the internal conflict for territory will just contine to expand.

China/Britain wars? [Opium].


Originally posted by spamandham
If you don't believe this, study the history of alcohol prohibition and the rise in violent crime that immediately followed, and the subsequent diminishing of it after prohibition was repealed. Then explain why other drugs are different.


Well actually there is a lot of difference between heroin and crack, there is a lot of difference between weed and es and a lot of difference between all of them including alcohol.


Originally posted by spamandham
If there are drugs that turn you into a homicidal maniac, then sure, criminalize those, but why everything else?


But every study finds different evidence at the moment. Is it really worth the risk making something legal that in turn could do a lot more harm in the long run? Look at smoking tobacco...


Originally posted by spamandham
If the purpose of law is to increase safety, repealing drug laws is the clear course of action.

However, other laws such as child neglect/abuse, driving under the influence, etc., should of course continue to be enforced against drug users, just as they are in general.


But if smoking heroin, crack, etc, are legal you can't then also say 'It's illegal to do it in front of children' and also how would the police go about proving they did it?

Do you really wish to see more drugs on the streets? Do you wish to run the risk of my children being hurt because their parents can legally and easily get access to drugs? And do you want drugs which we fully do not understand yet on our streets?

Sorry but get a job at a large club, 1000+ people, come back and tell me groups of people on drugs [not alcohol since less than 60% of clubbers drink it] are good, nice people only out for a night of fun.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by Odium

You ever seen someone OD?


Originally posted by Shoktek
No, but it happens because they dose too much due to product strength variability on the street. If drugs were regulated and legal, they would be the same standard of quality as prescriptions, allowing exact dosages to be known, and clean products.


Really?

So what about the fact the more drugs you take and the more often it builds up an internal resistance so you have to increase the dosage like with prescription medicine? Guess what...people still OD on sleeping tablets, anti-depresents, etc, which are all legal.

You also get different strength heroin naturally by the opium production so it is very hard to regulate. In fact it is possible to OD on heroin and '___' the first time you try them, even if clean drugs just because your body has no ability to hold up to it.

Like the other guy, I suggest you work at a large club for a while see someone OD and I doubt you'll want to make these drugs legal. In fact, I've seen more problems from people off of their face on drugs than I have people drinking alcohol in the last 18months. [Since the Police cracked down on alcohol related violence. It has dropped the club I work at to just over half of people drinking and consuming alcohol.]


Originally posted by Odium
Ever seen how people act on drugs? Ever see someone on '___' have a bad-trip?


Originally posted by Shoktek
Yes, and it's no worse than someone who's had too much to drink at the bar...it's all about responsibility with anything you do


There is a lot of difference between someone taking '___' and someone drinking alcohol.

I have yet to see [in the last 18months] someone drunk convinced that people were trying to kill them. Yet I have seen someone on '___' attempt to stab a bouncer because he believed such a thing...


Originally posted by Odium
Drugs should not be legal, yes what you do to your body is all well and good but not when what you do to your body harms innocent people.



Originally posted by Shoktek
Drunk drivers kill way more people than any drug user...alcohol and tobacco kill more people each year than illegal drugs have killed ever since our recording.


That might just be because less people are taking those drugs?

Do you not see if you open it up for all to try more abuse will come into play? In fact making it legal will help the drug dealers who home-grow and home-make a lot of their drugs. "Honestly, we got it from a shop."


Originally posted by Odium
Although I am sure chasing the dragon, while a 3month year old baby is fine for its health? Yep let's all make drugs legal.

Originally posted by Shoktek
Smoking and alcohol aren't any worse? Here's an interesting fact...mothers in the US and europe used to give their newborn babies morphine to calm them down and put them to sleep...it was quite common. Didn't do any harm, as long as correct dosages were used.


Where are the statistics showing it did them no harm?

Oh wait during that period we won't have them to proove your point. However, I have seen cases of people on heroin injecting their children to relax them. Let us make it even more widespread.


Originally posted by Shoktek
Almost any illegal/recreational drug is well documented and proven to be safer than alcohol and tobacco...alcohol is legal, and people drive drunk and kill others. Drug use is a social issue because we made it one. If alcohol and tobacco are perfectly fine to buy over the counter, the others should be as well...if someone can't use alcohol or any drug responsibly, they will pay the consequences in time..and it will be their own fault if they don't get help. But they shouldn't be thrown in jail for using them. It's also pretty pathetic that drug dealers are put in jail longer than most rapists and murderers in this country.


Really? It's rare that a drug dealer is placed in prison in the U.K. now or even users. We tend to use Community service due to the 70% non-reoffender rate it has for drug users. [The English Legal System by J. Martin]


Originally posted by Shoktek
If drugs were legal, we wouldn't have any of the problems associated with them anymore. The problems are caused by the prohibition. Same thing happened with alcohol. Same thing will happen with anything else that the govt. will try to regulate and control.


Because we have no problem with legal drugs?

Over the counter sleeping tablets?
We never had problems with Flunitrazepam?
Or anti-depresents?
OR alcohol?
Or tobacco?

What world are you living in?



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 03:22 AM
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I think qouting Bill Hicks once more is in it's place here:


Supreme Court says pornography is anything without artistic merit that causes sexual thoughts, that's their definition, essentially. No artistic merit, causes sexual thoughts. Hmm... Sounds like...every commercial on television, doesn't it?


very powerfull point made imho...



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 05:31 AM
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So what's objective art? Did the supreme court define art? I never saw any and I been an artist for almost 40 years? Everything can be considered art, it just depends on the eye of the beholder.

Now for a joke:
How can you tell who's an American at a nude beach in Europe?
He's the one with a camera or binoculars.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
You also get different strength heroin naturally by the opium production so it is very hard to regulate. In fact it is possible to OD on heroin and '___' the first time you try them, even if clean drugs just because your body has no ability to hold up to it.


No...you don't. All the opiate drugs such as morphine, oxycodone, etc. are all synthesized from opium, and are all readily available at the pharmacy in exact strengths. If other drugs were legal it would be exactly the same.

It's impossible to OD on '___' too...maybe you mean somebody having a bad trip, but it's not the same as overdosing, which can't happen with acid.


Originally posted by Odium
There is a lot of difference between someone taking '___' and someone drinking alcohol.

I have yet to see [in the last 18months] someone drunk convinced that people were trying to kill them. Yet I have seen someone on '___' attempt to stab a bouncer because he believed such a thing...


That was most likely a mentally unstable person in the first place who shouldn't have taken it, or just a freak bad trip...and I have seen much worse things happen that were alcohol induced.


Originally posted by Odium
That might just be because less people are taking those drugs?

Do you not see if you open it up for all to try more abuse will come into play? In fact making it legal will help the drug dealers who home-grow and home-make a lot of their drugs. "Honestly, we got it from a shop."


Noo....if drugs were LEGAL, there would be NO MORE DEALERS. The drug control would be taken over by pharmaceutical companies, thus making them pure, reliable, less expensive, and would remove the drug black market from our country, which causes lots of problems...the problems are caused by the prohibition, not the drug. Once drugs are legalized, they are no longer in the control of criminals, and the market is gone.


Originally posted by Odium
Oh wait during that period we won't have them to proove your point. However, I have seen cases of people on heroin injecting their children to relax them. Let us make it even more widespread.


Oh wait, alcohol and tobacco have actually been documented to hurt fetuses, unlike heroin. I bet if a mother started sniffing gasoline it wouldn't be good either. Nor would sky diving. But then again, she's not being forced to do these things, and yet she's free to do them if she chose to. How is an illegal drug any different...no logic in this argument.


Originally posted by Odium
Really? It's rare that a drug dealer is placed in prison in the U.K. now or even users. We tend to use Community service due to the 70% non-reoffender rate it has for drug users.


Yea...I'm not talking about the UK because I know they have less strict laws than the US, and I'm not as educated on the situation over there. Here in the US we have a big problem with spending more and more money on a hopeless war.


Originally posted by Shoktek
Over the counter sleeping tablets?
We never had problems with Flunitrazepam?
Or anti-depresents?
OR alcohol?
Or tobacco?

What world are you living in?


Once again, these are PERSONAL problems. Geez, learn to recognize a difference between a problem on the level of individuals, and a problem in the society. All of the SOCIAL PROBLEMS associated with drug use are caused by the prohibition. If an individual has a problem with drugs, it's their own problem. And if they want those drugs, they are going to get them no matter what, if they are legal or illegal. But if they were legal, they wouldn't have to go through shady people to get drugs, they wouldn't risk getting unpure product, they wouldn't have to pay as much, and we the people wouldn't have to pay as much in tax to keep all the drug dealers in jail, and keep the narcotics teams on the streets. Everyone in this situation would have it better than we do now...and if an individual user or users develops bad habits, then that is their own problem. No one else's, not society's. Drug problems should just be treated like any medical issue, and not a crime. And once again, people are free to drink, and alcohol kills more people every year than illegal drugs ever have. You can't dispute simple facts.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by spamandham
You're assuming that laws against drugs improve society. History demonstrates otherwise.


Really?


Yes.


Originally posted by Odium
I work part time as a Dj in one of the U.Ks largest clubs, I've seen people O.D. on almost every drug that is out there. It is fairly common place to find Es, speed, weed and '___' being taken in clubs.


Yes, but it's illegal, so clearly people don't do it, right?


Originally posted by Odium
And? If you make heroin, coc aine, etc, legal it'll still come from this places. These drug lords will be able to sell more drugs to a larger population and the internal conflict for territory will just contine to expand.


It will be grown locally for the most part, or exported just like any other crop. The drug lords will be no more, just as crime sindicates nearly disappeared after the repeal of prohibition. Unfortunately, drug prohibition started kicking into high gear shortly afterward, so they just switched products.


Originally posted by Odium
Well actually there is a lot of difference between heroin and crack, there is a lot of difference between weed and es and a lot of difference between all of them including alcohol.


No kidding. There's also a difference between steak and chicken. You explained that drugs are not all identical, a point no-one would contend, but did not explain why the repeal of drug prohibition for these drugs would not result in the same patterns of reduced crime we witnessed after the repeal of alcohol prohibition.


Originally posted by Odium
But every study finds different evidence at the moment. Is it really worth the risk making something legal that in turn could do a lot more harm in the long run? Look at smoking tobacco...


Yes, it's worth it. It makes no sense to criminalize something just because of the possibility of unknown long term consequences. By that line of thinking, all activities/products that we don't already know the long term consequences of should be criminalized.


Originally posted by Odium
But if smoking heroin, crack, etc, are legal you can't then also say 'It's illegal to do it in front of children' and also how would the police go about proving they did it?


Of course you can make it illegal to do it in front of children. You could also make it illegal in public. There are already precedents for adult-only activities.


Originally posted by Odium
Do you really wish to see more drugs on the streets?


No, but I would rather see standardized dosages, clean needles, clean manufacturing processes, etc., sold behind the counter rather than on the street. It's more difficult for children to buy alcohol than it is for them to buy crack because crack is sold on the streets by unscrupulous dealers, whereas alcohol is sold in an establishment with a lot to lose if they get caught selling to minors.

Decriminalization would remove the negative role models (drug dealers in their fancy cars) from poor areas, which act as a serious dissincentive to take school seriously.


Originally posted by Odium
Do you wish to run the risk of my children being hurt because their parents can legally and easily get access to drugs?


They can already get easy access, and the people who want to use drugs mostly do it regardless of whether its legal or not.


Originally posted by Odium
And do you want drugs which we fully do not understand yet on our streets?


No, but that's the situation we face right now anyway. At least if there were manufacturers to be held responsible, the worst stuff would not be sold legitimately. Once people get used to buying from legitimate sources, they shy away from uncontrolled sources. When's the last time you drank moonshine?


Originally posted by Odium
Sorry but get a job at a large club, 1000+ people, come back and tell me groups of people on drugs [not alcohol since less than 60% of clubbers drink it] are good, nice people only out for a night of fun.


Drugs are currently highly illegal, yet you yourself recognize that these laws are systematically ignored. How would it be worse if they were not illegal? Why were drugs not considered a major problem until fairly recently? What has changed that compells drug criminalization, when societies thrived for thousands of years without it?



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
You also get different strength heroin naturally by the opium production so it is very hard to regulate. In fact it is possible to OD on heroin and '___' the first time you try them, even if clean drugs just because your body has no ability to hold up to it.


Originally posted by Shoktek
No...you don't. All the opiate drugs such as morphine, oxycodone, etc. are all synthesized from opium, and are all readily available at the pharmacy in exact strengths. If other drugs were legal it would be exactly the same.

It's impossible to OD on '___' too...maybe you mean somebody having a bad trip, but it's not the same as overdosing, which can't happen with acid.


Odd...if you check the back of prescription drugs, many of them label problems with the dosage and that they measure to the nearest dosage they can but are never exact... as well as the addictive problems.

Also 'Over Dose' in my part of the U.K. tends to mean you suffer from any of the ill effects of drugs. A lot of people even use it when talking about 'weed induced paranoia'.


Originally posted by Odium
There is a lot of difference between someone taking '___' and someone drinking alcohol.

I have yet to see [in the last 18months] someone drunk convinced that people were trying to kill them. Yet I have seen someone on '___' attempt to stab a bouncer because he believed such a thing...


Originally posted by Shoktek
That was most likely a mentally unstable person in the first place who shouldn't have taken it, or just a freak bad trip...and I have seen much worse things happen that were alcohol induced.


I've seen bad things on alcohol as well, however just because that is legal doesn't mean otehr drugs should be.

Why should we run the risk of people who are mentally ill [and don't know it] being able to get a hold of drugs even easier and in turn hurt other people? This is the problem...drugs don't just 'hurt' yourself but other people.

See this the main problem with making drugs legal. I would have no problem if drugs only harmed the people who take them but they do not. They do harm pregnant mothers and young children as well as innocent people. Why should they be punished so someone else can smoke weed?


Originally posted by Odium
That might just be because less people are taking those drugs?

Do you not see if you open it up for all to try more abuse will come into play? In fact making it legal will help the drug dealers who home-grow and home-make a lot of their drugs. "Honestly, we got it from a shop."


Originally posted by Shoktek
Noo....if drugs were LEGAL, there would be NO MORE DEALERS. The drug control would be taken over by pharmaceutical companies, thus making them pure, reliable, less expensive, and would remove the drug black market from our country, which causes lots of problems...the problems are caused by the prohibition, not the drug. Once drugs are legalized, they are no longer in the control of criminals, and the market is gone.


So there is no Black Market for prescription drugs?

I guess then Ritalin‚ Adderall and Dexedrine have not became drugs which are abused and openly available? Guess what...by criminals. They sell them on the streets, like they do illegal drugs now. So your idea that it would remove the illegal drug trade is well...a joke in my view.

Prescription drugs black market booms


Originally posted by Odium
Oh wait during that period we won't have them to proove your point. However, I have seen cases of people on heroin injecting their children to relax them. Let us make it even more widespread.


Originally posted by Shoktek
Oh wait, alcohol and tobacco have actually been documented to hurt fetuses, unlike heroin. I bet if a mother started sniffing gasoline it wouldn't be good either. Nor would sky diving. But then again, she's not being forced to do these things, and yet she's free to do them if she chose to. How is an illegal drug any different...no logic in this argument.



Heroin Risk Actually if you would take some time to check, almost every illegal drug has had studies done on them. In fact more studies done on them than legal drugs and none are overly positive with the findings.


Originally posted by Odium
Really? It's rare that a drug dealer is placed in prison in the U.K. now or even users. We tend to use Community service due to the 70% non-reoffender rate it has for drug users.


Originally posted by Shoktek
Yea...I'm not talking about the UK because I know they have less strict laws than the US, and I'm not as educated on the situation over there. Here in the US we have a big problem with spending more and more money on a hopeless war.


You target the war by the problem.

Legalising anything doesn't remove the illegal market for it.

Does having legal firearms remove the black market? No.
Does it with prescription drugs? No.
Alcohol? No...


Originally posted by Odium
Over the counter sleeping tablets?
We never had problems with Flunitrazepam?
Or anti-depresents?
OR alcohol?
Or tobacco?

What world are you living in?


Originally posted by Shoktek
Once again, these are PERSONAL problems. Geez, learn to recognize a difference between a problem on the level of individuals, and a problem in the society. All of the SOCIAL PROBLEMS associated with drug use are caused by the prohibition. If an individual has a problem with drugs, it's their own problem. And if they want those drugs, they are going to get them no matter what, if they are legal or illegal. But if they were legal, they wouldn't have to go through shady people to get drugs, they wouldn't risk getting unpure product, they wouldn't have to pay as much, and we the people wouldn't have to pay as much in tax to keep all the drug dealers in jail, and keep the narcotics teams on the streets. Everyone in this situation would have it better than we do now...and if an individual user or users develops bad habits, then that is their own problem. No one else's, not society's. Drug problems should just be treated like any medical issue, and not a crime. And once again, people are free to drink, and alcohol kills more people every year than illegal drugs ever have. You can't dispute simple facts.


Flunitrazepam isn't a social problem? Here was me thinking date rape was a social problem, in fact a large enough social problem to have caused international outrage...

Also of course alcohol kills more people than heroin does because more people drink it.

It's like compairing these numbers; 1:100,000 people die from alcohol and the same number die from heroin abuse. 500,000 drink alcohol and only 200,000 take heroin. So 5 people die drinking alcohol and 2 die taking heroin. This is the problem, your statistics are bias because more people do one than the other and you can't compare them.

It's the old arguement of; 5.4 deaths per-100,000 from heroin and 611 per-100,000 from smoking. However more people smoke and thus more people will die from it. If the same percentage of people who took heroin smoked we would probably see a much smaller gap between the two. You also assume I am pro-smoking and fine with it being legal when I am not.

You also do not know the extent it would cost in the long run. You do not know the problems it could cause for wider society [people] and in turn harm them forcing them to spend more time off of work, increased medical bills and thus medical insurance as well as all the rest.

Also drug abuse is a problem for society. Drug addiction can resulted in things such as loss of employment, homes, etc, and in turn boost many things such as crime and poverty. It's a nasty cycle once you begin to get addicted especially to drugs like heroin which would still be expensive. After all, who will they buy the opium from? You can only farm so much and they already buy opium for drugs from 'Drug Lords' in Asia and South America.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Also 'Over Dose' in my part of the U.K. tends to mean you suffer from any of the ill effects of drugs. A lot of people even use it when talking about 'weed induced paranoia'.


A true "overdose" is when a drug reaches toxic levels in the body, causing internal organs to start shutting down, and death in many cases...this does not occur from pot, lsd, mushrooms, things like that.


Originally posted by Odium
Why should we run the risk of people who are mentally ill [and don't know it] being able to get a hold of drugs even easier and in turn hurt other people? This is the problem...drugs don't just 'hurt' yourself but other people.

See this the main problem with making drugs legal. I would have no problem if drugs only harmed the people who take them but they do not. They do harm pregnant mothers and young children as well as innocent people. Why should they be punished so someone else can smoke weed?


So do alcohol and tobacco...the drugs are going to be used no matter what, if they are legal or illegal, how hard is it to figure out? People will always find the drugs, but it will be safer, less expensive, and less troublesome if they can just get them at a damn pharmacy and not have to travel into the ghetto.


Originally posted by Odium
So there is no Black Market for prescription drugs?

I guess then Ritalin‚ Adderall and Dexedrine have not became drugs which are abused and openly available? Guess what...by criminals. They sell them on the streets, like they do illegal drugs now. So your idea that it would remove the illegal drug trade is well...a joke in my view.


Uhh...yea, because those are prescription drugs. They are still controlled. Anyone can't just go to the store and buy a prescription drug to get high or whatever. So they buy them off the streets. Many drugs that get people high are prescribed, but they are still controlled drugs. You have no point with this argument, as there will always be a black market for government controlled items...if prescription drugs were unscheduled and made legal, anyone could buy them just as an OTC drug. How many times have you heard of drug dealers selling robitussin on the street? People get high from it though, and it is bought in any store. What are we going to do, make that illegal too, and keep it away from those who have a cough? You are making no sense at all with this argument...all drugs will be on the black market until they are legal. Prescription drugs are still illegal drugs.



Originally posted by Odium
Actually if you would take some time to check, almost every illegal drug has had studies done on them. In fact more studies done on them than legal drugs and none are overly positive with the findings.


Of course they have been studied...heroin was originally introduced by Bayer along with aspirin as a pain killer. And most of the studies I have read on the negative effects of illegal drugs are inconclusive. THC for example is very beneficial for people with glaucoma, cancer patients who have no appetite, pain killing, and even shrinking the size of tumors. '___' was used succesfully around the 1950s I believe to treat alcoholism and other drug addictions, and had a very high success rating. Psilocybin from illegal mushrooms is excellent at stopping cluster headaches, a very painful ailment which cannot be stopped any other way. But no one can get access to any of these drugs, or their potential benefits, because they are illegal. Nicotine is the most addictive drug around...more addictive than heroin. That has been documented as well. Caffeine isn't much better either. If you drink a couple cups of coffee every morning to help wake you up, you are a drug addict. But does it really matter?


Originally posted by Odium
You target the war by the problem.

Legalising anything doesn't remove the illegal market for it.

Does having legal firearms remove the black market? No.
Does it with prescription drugs? No.
Alcohol? No...


Making something legal does remove the illegal market, because it is no longer illegal.
Firearms are legal but still CONTROLLED, so there is going to be a black market for those who can't legally buy firearms, or for dangerous firearms which can't be purchased legally.

Prescription drugs, once again, are not legal, this argument has no logic.

Alcohol? Tell me what kind of "illegal market" exists for alcohol. The fact is, once prohibition stopped, the illegal market disappeared, which is what will happen for any controlled substance.


Originally posted by Odium
Flunitrazepam isn't a social problem? Here was me thinking date rape was a social problem, in fact a large enough social problem to have caused international outrage...

Also of course alcohol kills more people than heroin does because more people drink it.

It's like compairing these numbers; 1:100,000 people die from alcohol and the same number die from heroin abuse. 500,000 drink alcohol and only 200,000 take heroin. So 5 people die drinking alcohol and 2 die taking heroin. This is the problem, your statistics are bias because more people do one than the other and you can't compare them.

It's the old arguement of; 5.4 deaths per-100,000 from heroin and 611 per-100,000 from smoking. However more people smoke and thus more people will die from it. If the same percentage of people who took heroin smoked we would probably see a much smaller gap between the two. You also assume I am pro-smoking and fine with it being legal when I am not.

You also do not know the extent it would cost in the long run. You do not know the problems it could cause for wider society [people] and in turn harm them forcing them to spend more time off of work, increased medical bills and thus medical insurance as well as all the rest.

Also drug abuse is a problem for society. Drug addiction can resulted in things such as loss of employment, homes, etc, and in turn boost many things such as crime and poverty. It's a nasty cycle once you begin to get addicted especially to drugs like heroin which would still be expensive. After all, who will they buy the opium from? You can only farm so much and they already buy opium for drugs from 'Drug Lords' in Asia and South America.


Date rape is caused by alcohol, no other drug. GHB is combined with alcohol as a date rape drug, but the fact is, without alcohol, it would not work as a date rape drug. Alcohol is the only concern with that matter.

Of course there will be less people dead/hurt when less people use the drug. But everyone COULD use the drug if they wanted to. What makes you think that legalizing drugs would all of a sudden turn everyone into an addict? Look at alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. These are all physically addicting drugs that are legal. Some people use them responsibly, some people do not. The effects are due to a person, not the drug. If I decided I wanted to use heroin or crack, I could walk into a part of town and find some in about 15 minutes. There are so many people out there trying to sell it, we might as well take it out of the hands of criminals and put it in a pharmacy. If drugs are legal and regulated by the government, we get MORE CONTROL than having them illegal.

Back in my high school days, and I guess still today, it was MUCH harder to get a hold of alcohol being under 21 than it was to find a bag of pot. That's because when a drug becomes legal, it is controlled and regulated, taken off the street.

And by the way, heroin is made from opium, just like morphine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, codeine, etc...prescription drugs are all made from the same opium plant as heroin, and they all give you essentially the same high feeling. The reason people turn to heroin is because of the fact that oxycodone and the like are only legal with a prescription, thus mainly controlled by the pharmacies, and very hard to find on the street. So the people who become addicted to prescription painkillers, who got a legal prescription for pain...have to turn to buying heroin from the street once their prescription runs out. A very unclean, unreliable substance, which is bought from criminals...as opposed to just buying an exact dose from the local pharmacy.

You have lost this debate, as we have lost the "war on drugs", stop reiterating the same failing points you bring up each time, they can all be countered with logic.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
See this the main problem with making drugs legal. I would have no problem if drugs only harmed the people who take them but they do not.


The vast majority of drug users harm no-one else. Criminalizing drugs does not prevent the cases when someone innocent gets harmed by someone on drugs.

Enforcement of the laws against harming others would improve if the legal system were not busy fighting a drug war. Law enforcement could concentrate on those who cause problems to others if they were not busy concentrating on the vast majority that do not. Law enforcement is on the brink of collapse due to the drug war.

Real crimes against people and property are systematically ignored because its harder to get a conviction than it is to get a conviction on drug usage/posession.


Originally posted by Odium
So there is no Black Market for prescription drugs?


Of course there is. Prescription drugs are still controlled. People who want to abuse them can't get them legally, and so they resort to getting them illegally. If you could just walk up to a pharmacist and buy whatever you want without a prescription, would those black markets still exist?

You recognize the existence of the black markets, and the ease with which people can buy whatever substances they want, yet can't seem to see that this is proof that the drug laws are not accomplishing the stated objectives of keeping drugs off the streets.

Here's what the laws do:
- create massive profits for unskilled criminal work (dealing), which seduces the poor into the business rather than into study for legitimate work

- result in mass jailings of otherwise non-dangerous and productive individuals. This is a direct burdon to support them in jail, but also leaves children without parents. A moderate drug using parent is still better than parent at all.

- create massive profits for criminal organizations drawing more people into the "management" roles as well, which fund drug lords oversees

- turns ordinary people into criminals for harming no-one. Once you lose respect for the law in one regard, you are more likely to disregard it in other regards

- increases the cost of drugs which increases peripheral crimes related to getting drug money

- distracts law enforcement from other crimes against people/property

- empowers street gangs which terrorize poor neighborhoods

- the high profits create incentiove for police and judicial corruption. Corrupt police are worse than no poilice at all.




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