Terrorists Use Children as Shields; Child Dies in Firefight

Originally posted by Jakomo


WHY do soldiers give candy to children? What kind of silly little PR photo op BS is that anyway?

Do you like your children taking candy from strangers? Even if they are strangers in uniform? If they are soldiers occupying your country is that better? Worse?

You don't win peoples' hearts and minds by giving candy to their kids. You win it by talking to them on the same level and making compromises and SHOWING them you care about them even if they totally disagree with you sometimes.


jako

Thing is, every little nicen thing you do adds up and frankly it helps.
Also, if you make friends with the next generation you then ensure the future is better.

Bikereddie:

But, as i have already stated, it brings some kind of happiness to them.
What is so wrong with that?

When the innocent gesture can be misconstrued easily by someone else, putting both those involved at risk, then it's not proper. Again, how was your son to know that someone was watching and thinking "This little girl must be made an example of"? Somebody should have told him.

Devilwasp:

Thing is, every little nicen thing you do adds up and frankly it helps.
Also, if you make friends with the next generation you then ensure the future is better.

What are they, puppies? You "make friends" with them by giving them tasty little treats and biscuits?

It's simplistic. How many times do you figure that while a Humvee is parked alonside the road giving out candies to children, it is rocket-attacked because it is idle and the soldiers are not 100% on their guard?


I See You:

My best friend serves in Iraq (camp speicher) and had to shoot through a woman and her child because they were being used as human sheilds. The scumbag was ready to fire an rpg at him and his brothers.

Well then he's a murderer, isn't he?

If this was the USA, and a cop is in a firefight with, say, a psychopathic killer, and the guy grabs a mother and baby as a human shield, and the cop STILL blows all of them away, he is going to go on trial for murder, most likely.

So how's this different? You're the cops. The mother and baby are innocent whether they live in Alabama or Baghdad.

So had your friend done this anywhere else, he would be tried for murder. Rightly so. The guy had an RPG, he wasn't fingering the trigger of a nuclear bomb. Was there some kind of hostage negotiation? Was there time?

What was this guy's most heinous crime that it ws so important to kill him that the lives of a mother and child were WORTH the price? What gives your friend the right to make that decision? Nothing does.

Don't think that the utter disregard for their safety shown by U.S. forces goes unnoticed by your average Iraqi, either. You talk about your "brothers", but these are their "mothers" and "sisters" and "sons".

Killing is killing. Try to justify it all you want, because if you're there,and you're involved, you will relive it over and over in your hed for the rest of your life in many ways. People know, deep down inside, when something they do is wrong.

Blowing away a woman and her baby to kill the enemy is one of those things that would and should stick with someone to the grave.

jako

by Jakomo: If this was the USA, and a cop is in a firefight with, say, a psychopathic killer, and the guy grabs a mother and baby as a human shield, and the cop STILL blows all of them away, he is going to go on trial for murder, most likely.

So how's this different? You're the cops. The mother and baby are innocent whether they live in Alabama or Baghdad.

This is like comparing apples to oranges. When was the last time you saw or heard of a gunfight in Anytown, USA, or Canada for that matter, where the so-called psychopath was using Rocket-Propelled-Grenades or IEDs? This is war and all too often there is no time to think. Taking time to think often equates to you're dead.

By your own statement it would seem that if confronted with this type of situation you would choose to think/die? I would hope not.

It is sad that anyone should ever be placed in a situation where they have to make this type of life or death decision but, during times of war, it is an everpresent reality that is faced by many on a daily basis.

So many seem quick to pass judgement. How can you truly say what you would do until you are, or have been, presented with making this type of life or death decision. Think quick . . . 3-2-1 . . . you're dead!

[edit on 9/25/2005 by 12m8keall2c]

Well then he's a murderer, isn't he?


No, He's alive and would have been dead along with his brothers. It was a firefight and a large one at that(similar to BlackHawk Down) and did what was needed to stay alive. So you would have sacrificed your life and those of your unit because somebody decided to use a woman and child as protection? Your full of it. Easy to say such things as you sit behind your pc all comfy but in the real world of life and death you would have done the same and if you say not then you lie.

This man in Fallujah, was trying to carry is sick mother out of the City.

The US troops shot both of them dead.

link to image. Warning may be upsetting to people who have a shred of humanity left.

www.iraq-war.ru...

Was he using her as a human SHIELD??????? HUH Devilwasp ?

Did the US troops have to "shoot them inorder to survive?" It seems to me in Iraq, the US considers every person a threat, including children.


12m8keall2c asked me what i would do in their shoes , if i had to kill innocent civilians in order to live.

I Said the answer is simple

I Would rather die than kill innocent civilians. because i am not a coward.

It's because i don't live my life inorder to prolong it, i live my life trying to prolong the lives of the innocent people. I exist FOR them, not for myself, and so i would never kill them inorder to make my life longer.

That's what it means to be a soldier. Atleast in the most idealist terms. It means when you sign on the dotted line, your life is almost worthless by itself, it means you exist for others, ussually for your own people, but it can be extended to innocent people.

I bet most US troops where never told that, when they signed on the dotted line, it's no wonder we are seeing these cowardly acts.

I see you

Is his life not as important as the woman or childs

Which life is worth more, the life of that innocent baby, or the life of the US soldier. I tell you a single hair on the head of that baby, is worth more than all the US soldiers in Iraq. Especially because, they have no right to be in iraq.


Devilwasp

1 a terrorist used a human shield but the baby survived

That's is what the US military SAID (and the first was a child not baby by the way), that's not necceseraly the truth, it seems to me their just covering up a war crime, and trying to sell "they eat belgian children" propoganda about the iraqi resistance.

They don't have an image to support their claims, however the iraqi resistance does.

this time another picked one up and was going to use it as a hostage.

Was he now? Then why didn't he hold it up where the US soldier to see it and say, don't shoot i have a baby hostage?

Why did he run with it, as if all he wanted to do was save it's life?


Surrender???? As if your not known for shooting at people waving white flags ( i have a video of it if you like), and shooting wounded old men (like the one in that mosque in fallujah, i hope you remember), besides to the man with the baby, he just witnessed a US soldier open fire on another child, it doesn't seem like anyone was given much of a chance at surrender. All around him where falling even a child, could he ever dream that surrender would lead to survival, i highly doubt it.


As for what you said about "terrorists hiding in mosques"

here is an example:

www.iraq-war.ru..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

It seems like everything THAT THE US DOES, you claim the resistance does, like using human shields.

No you showed isrealis, dont even TRY to say that Co-Alition forces use human shield

I'm affraid my dear your mistaken. Re read what i said, it's on page two. I said that US soldiers where using children as human shields, and that it is also an Israeli tactic. An allie of the US.

www.iraq-war.ru..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

portland.indymedia.org...

US Forces Using Iraqi Children as Human Shields
author: IM
Resistance field commander saw American troops use women and children as human shields atop their tanks.
A field commander in the Iraqi Resistance disclosed to a correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam in al-Fallujah what he called the "tragedy of the street fighting" by which he meant the way that the invading American troops were using Iraqi women and children as human shields.

The commander said that the tragedy began last Tuesday. Before that he had never seen it before, where the Americans were using women and children to shield their tanks. The commander commented: "this state is living through a type of savagery that history has never known before."

The Resistance field commander said "we could hear the cries of the children and the women's calls for help from atop a column of tanks that was driving along ath-Tharthar street last Tuesday. Some of our fighters closed their eyes in pain and wept at the sight."

And before you jump to arguing for or against it, please do me a favour and read the arguements that have already been made so we can bring some new ideas into the pool. It pays to read the whole thread before you post in it.


And by the way. I swear the use of DevilSwamp was an honest mistake. I'm good at remembering everything but names! Souljah will testify to that. LOL... devil swamp, you have to admit it's humorous.



[edit on 25-9-2005 by Syrian Sister]

The name "Red Swamp" was running in my head again and again.

But then my mind says "no no it's DEVIL swamp"

LOL !!!!

i guess i still go the wasp bit wrong.


As for giving candy to kids taking a photo, and then killing them the next day.

It's not out of niceness, it's just a photo opportunity.

As i've demonstrated, not all of iraqies children are give them the chance. What was it now, you throw candy, they throw stones in return. Just like palestinian kids.

I'm affraid it's in the blood of the arabs, we are not the germans and the japanese, you can't win us over with little tricks.

[edit on 25-9-2005 by Syrian Sister]

.
.
Just above this thread when I scrolled:

The Soft Drink Industry: Putting Money Before Children's Health


So what's the diffrence between the 2 kinds of terrorists? The amount of blood? Money? What?

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
As for giving candy to kids taking a photo, and then killing them the next day.
It's not out of niceness, it's just a photo opportunity.

Not sure if that was a remark about the story i posted.

I will clarify one point that seems to spring up time and time again.
My son never took his gesture as a photo opportunity. He certainly did not go back and kill her the next day.

He did what he did, because it is in his nature. Just because he is a soldier, does not make him any less human or lacking in any kindness towards people he sees as more unfortunate than himself.

And you can forget any replies with the word 'hypocrite' stamped all over them.

I described my son, and how he is, and how he dealt with the situation.

by Syrian Sister:
12m8keall2c asked me what i would do in their shoes , if i had to kill innocent civilians in order to live.

NO, actually I asked you what you would do if presented with a life or death situation allowing for very minimal [milliseconds] response time. If you've ever been in that type of situation you would know that basic human self preservation instincts tend to takeover and you react moreso out of instinct for survival than from rational thought. If time allowed for rational thought most killings period would not take place but, unfortuantely that's not the case.

by Syrian Sister:
It's because i don't live trying to prolong it, i live my life trying to prolong the lives of the innocent people. I exist FOR them, not for myself, and so i would never kill them inorder to make my life longer.

That's what it means to be a soldier. Atleast in the most idealist terms. It means when you sign on the dotted line, your life is almost worthless by itself, it means you exist for others, ussually for your own people, but it can be extended to innocent people.

Sounds to me that you're presenting yourself as a candidate for martyrdom.

If that's the case then are you saying, when those you support tell you it's for the greater cause and that the cause is to protect the lives of innocent people whom your target is attempting to harm, you would strap on explosive charges and proceed to the directed area/building/public gathering?


In all honesty Sis, I do share your views that all life is sacred and that all killing is just that . . . killing, no matter what the supposed cause is. However we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a very messed up world where often times those doing the actual dirty deed, the killing, on either side, are only pawns in the game. You can apply this to virtually every war that was ever waged. The ones in the field are simply following orders, no matter how convoluted those orders may be, and based on what they are fed they may even feel justified that what they are doing is right [either side mind you].

In times of war, such as these, there will always be those that seem to lose their way, their values, their morals and standards. Many, due to the extreme conditions that exist during such times, lose touch with their grounding and may perform what they would otherwise consider heinous and irreprehensible acts.

Peace2All

on another note:

by SS:
Originally

The name "Red Swamp" was running in my head again and again.

But then my mind says "no no it's DEVIL swamp"

LOL !!!!

i guess i still go the wasp bit wrong.


As for giving candy to kids taking a photo, and then killing them the next day.

It's not out of niceness, it's just a photo opportunity.

As i've demonstrated, not all of iraqies children are give them the chance. What was it now, you throw candy, they throw stones in return. Just like palestinian kids.

I'm affraid it's in the blood of the arabs, we are not the germans and the japanese, you can't win us over with little tricks.

Now that is totally uncalled for and asinine!!!

[edit on 9/25/2005 by 12m8keall2c]

yeah, this sickens me when terrorists do this, reminds me of vietnam and giving kids grenades and having them run up and hug a GI, they knew they woukdnt shoot a kid, same kind of cowardice with the arabs.

You keep saying that when i talk about the US troops using children as human shields i'm off topic.

But Isn't the topic "terrorists use children as human shields?"

I do belive, i am right on topic.

And your photo of two Iraqi youths next to a humvee is absolute proof of your claims!? NOT!

On your side, you have NO PROOF AT ALL, TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS!

YOu have the testimony of the US military and troops.

I have the testimony of the iraqi resistance, AND A PHOTOGRAPH.

THat means, there is more evidence to support the idea that the resistance are telling the truth, than there is evidence that the US troops are telling the truth.

Now who's answering a question with a question!?

You.
Started.
IT.

And by the way, you did it again, just then!

As for what you said about foreign fighters and what not, it's ammusing to me, because you say "alot of the resistance are foreign fighters".

WELL ALL OF THE AMERICANS ARE FOREIGN FIGHTERS!!!

They didn't grow up in iraq eating dates did they?

And even your own sources say, that at most 10% of the resistance are made up of non iraqi arabs.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Report attacks 'myth' of foreign fighters

Brian Whitaker and Ewen MacAskill
Friday September 23, 2005
The Guardian

The US and the Iraqi government have overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, "feeding the myth" that they are the backbone of the insurgency, an American thinktank says in a new report.

Foreign militants - mainly from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia - account for less than 10% of the estimated 30,000 insurgents, according to the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

--------------------

NO, actually I asked you what you would do if presented with a life or death situation allowing for very minimal [milliseconds] response time.... basic human self preservation instincts tend to takeover and you react moreso out of instinct for survival than from rational thought.

EVEN if it was less than a millisecond, i wouldn't shoot someone whome i would stand in the path of a bullet for. Instinct or no instinct, human beings are NOTanimals, our heart dictate our actions, even in the most dangerous of moments, and i know for a fact that it's not in my heart to kill an innocent person. For a human being, the heart overides an instinct. Just look at the parents who fight till death for their children, even some animals do this.

Sounds to me that you're presenting yourself as a candidate for martyrdom. ...strap a bomb etc.

Look up the word martyr.

There is a different between taking a bullet for someone, and commiting suicide.

There is a difference between getting killed while fighting for something, and commiting suicide.

There is a difference between choosing not to kill over survival, and commiting suicide.

I hope you can realise that.

In all honesty Sis, I do share your views that all life is sacred and that all killing is just that . . . killing, no matter what the supposed cause i

Actualy, that is not my view. I'm not a pacifist, i belive that if a country has declared war on your country and occupied you, it is your duty to resist, and kill or wound the occupier such that they can no longer fight.



[edit on 25-9-2005 by Syrian Sister]

As if the US didn't shoot vietnamese kids lol.

Read what i wrote in page 2.

The US military just claimed that vietnamese kids had grenades, to cover up the warcrime of shooting them.

Most likely, judging from their history, and the lies they told about iraq.

[edit on 25-9-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Its apparent to me that syrian is graping for anything to support her radical views, which are IMO quite sickening. and FYI, Iraq is filled with factions fighting for different reasons, there is no unified 'iraqi resistance', thats a notion of fantasy since none of these people can agree on anything other than they would like to kill someone..Are the arabs radical?yes. Are we wiling to solve the problem? therein lies where the problem is, the Japanese were far more radical than the arabs, yet today we are allies and have common interests.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
As if the US didn't shoot vietnamese kids lol.

Read what i wrote in page 2.

The US military just claimed that vietnamese kids had grenades, to cover up the warcrime of shooting them.

Most likely, judging from their history, and the lies they told about iraq.

[edit on 25-9-2005 by Syrian Sister]

yeah, and the vets i personally know who told about what they did are liars too i suppose? I suppose pulling out fingernails and shoving bamboo in them isnt a warcrime? neither is beating them to death? there were alot of things that went on in vietnam, but not all the kids being shot was to 'cover up warcrimes'.

lol it's freaking hilarious, SS you point so many fingers yet you point none at your heart. You groan and moan about people not having PROOF, yet your proof is a photo that could be slapped with a caption and it'd fit the situation.

Do you not see the IRONY of it? True Hilarity, almost Hillary Duffness!


btw don't think it be the heart, It is instinct and the adrenal medulla, I could be at total ass and be like look it up. mmm can you taste the epinephrine?


However that being said, I think its fun to watch you spew forth pro-wha'evah you wanna claim proganda against the conservative propaganda, it makes me chuckle


and as for the human shields, lol let's see he could easily be sniped not like he's pulling a Sadam and having a buncha look alikes crowded around him but CARRY ON.

You keep saying that when i talk about the US troops using children as human shields i'm off topic.
But Isn't the topic "terrorists use children as human shields?"
I do belive, i am right on topic.

No, when you bring up Israel, Palestinian, and My-Lai is when I feel you are posting off topic.

Look up the word martyr.

There is a different between taking a bullet for someone, and commiting suicide.

There is a difference between getting killed while fighting for something, and commiting suicide.

There is a difference between choosing not to kill over survival, and commiting suicide.

I hope you can realise that.

Yes, but that is the approach used to recruit members for many of the different factions supporting the resistance . . . by doing so you will achieve martyrdom and your family will be blessed by your actions.

EVEN if it was less than a millisecond, i wouldn't shoot someone whome i would stand in the path of a bullet for. Instinct or no instinct, human beings are NOTanimals, our heart dictate our actions, even in the most dangerous of moments, and i know for a fact that it's not in my heart to kill an innocent person. For a human being, the heart overides an instinct. Just look at the parents who fight till death for their children, even some animals do this.

Okay?! Would you place a loved one in front of you whilst defending your cause. or would you stand alone and fight for said cause?

On your side, you have NO PROOF AT ALL, TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS!

YOu have the testimony of the US military and troops.

I have the testimony of the iraqi resistance, AND A PHOTOGRAPH.

THat means, there is more evidence to support the idea that the resistance are telling the truth, than there is evidence that the US troops are telling the truth.

Okay?! I agree there is more reality in your fantasy world. Your word holds more truth than mine. Your interpretation of the situation at hand holds more creedence than mine. How narrow minded and self perpetuating!

quote: Now who's answering a question with a question!?
You.
Started.
IT.

Childish.

Actualy, that is not my view. I'm not a pacifist, i belive that if a country has declared war on your country and occupied you, it is your duty to resist, and kill or wound the occupier such that they can no longer fight.

Then why are you in Australia and not in your homeland of Syria continuing the cause? They're always looking for a few good men, women, and children.

Rikimaru

Iraq is filled with factions fighting for different reasons, there is no unified 'iraqi resistance',

Your mistaken. The resistance is fighting for one reason and one reason alone, to free iraq from US occupation.

This is the unifier. Everything else is secondary.

It unites communists to socialists, baathists to theocrats. It unites sunni, and shia, and christian and athiest.

Don't ever doubt how much iraqies love their country, and how much that love brings them together.

Sure the people in the resistance all have different ideas of where they want to see their country go after the war is over, but that can all be disgused after it's over, and iraqies have REAL freedom, to decide what they want. And not the PSUEDO-Orwellian kind that the US is offering.

yeah, and the vets i personally know who told about what they did are liars too i suppose?

More than likely, how can i belive you about vietnamn when i've witnessed all the lies you've made about iraq,and even if they where telling the truth, you killed dozens of vietnamese children, alot of which never had any weapons on them let alone a grenade.
Have you forgotten My-lai?

but not all the kids being shot was to 'cover up warcrimes'.

That's not what i said. I said perhaps you made up the story that the kids had grenades, in order to cover up warcrimes.

--------------------------

lysergic

You groan and moan about people not having PROOF, yet your proof is a photo that could be slapped with a caption and it'd fit the situation.

I gave more proof than you ever did, atleast my caption HAD an attached photo.

btw don't think it be the heart, It is instinct and the adrenal medulla,

It's unfortunate that you belive that, and i doubt very much you can "look it up" however i do challenge you to.
I've read stories where people have jumped into freezing water, risking their own lives to save a perfect stranger.

This is the difference between being human, and being an animal. Now it could be that your soldiers chose to be animals and follow the instict to survive, but it could also be that they chose to follow their heart, but their heart told them that it is ok to kill iraqi civilians, something which is far worse.

I belive it's the latter.

However,.. it makes me chuckle

Well as long as your having fun sweety

let's see he could easily be sniped

You can make your own mind about why he was more worried about RPG's than snipers, but the fact is, he looks as though he feels safe from RPG fire.
Guess no one reported snipers in the area, but men reported men with RPG-7's. I've seen US soldiers get sniped before in iraqi resistance video, some of which had their heads stiking out of a bradley, though in one case, there was a child a metre away from the soldier, and the resistance sniper would simple NOT TAKE THE SHOT!!! I guess that is beceause he knows if he misses, the gunho US troops, who by your own admition, fire at anything that moves inorder to survive, would then fire indiscriminatly trying to hit the unseen target. putting the child in danger.

It's however beside the point, the US soldier feels safe enough to stay in that one position, out in the open, because of those two human shields he is imploying.


----------------------------------

12m8keall2c

Yes, but that is the approach used to recruit members for many of the different factions supporting the resistance . . . by doing so you will achieve martyrdom and your family will be blessed by your actions.

That's TOTAL BS spread by the enemy. Don't belive everything you hear. Your talking to the closest thing this website has to the resistance, why don't you ask me.
HHAHAha your family will be blessed by your actions? WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAP?

The topic is "terrorists use children as human Shield" and in the picture i posted some israeli terrorsits where using children as human shields. That is not going off topic. It's A) demonstrating what a human shield looks like

and B) Showing who the US Ally themselves with, and where they might have learnt their tactics from.

My lai was in reponse to something else someone posted. I did digress a little there, but that was on page 2. And it was on PAGE 4-5 , that you accused me of going of topic.

Your interpretation of the situation at hand holds more creedence than mine

Well thankyou for finally admitting it.
That's all i ask.

Childish.

Well, i am a teenager.

Then why are you in Australia and not in your homeland of Syria continuing the cause?

What do you mean, Syria is not attacked, if syria gets attacked, then i will go to it's defence.

Id' rather be living in syria, but unfortunately i'm stuck in australia right now due to my parents work.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Id' rather be living in syria, but unfortunately i'm stuck in australia right now due to my parents work.

Oh the bitter irony.

Sounds like propaganda to me. Where you there? Do you really believe thats the real story and thats exactly how it went down?

Of course you do because your a brainwashed robot that cant think for yourself.
I dont mean any disrespect but youve made it blatantly obvious by your ignorant remarks that your a sheep.

"Thats what seperates us from the terrorist savages"
Us? Whos us? I dont see you fighting in Iraq. Oh yeah thats because your a coward and youd rather support the war from the comfort of your home. Well if your for the "war" I suggest you grow some testacles and go fight in it.

What do you mean, Syria is not attacked, if syria gets attacked, then i will go to it's defence.

Id' rather be living in syria, but unfortunately i'm stuck in australia right now due to my parents work.

Syria's becoming quite the gateway to your so-called unified resistance.
As for a unified resistance, the only unification seems to be targeting the coalition troops, the citizens of Iraq, and and a truly democratic and free Iraq. A more appropriate representation would be kind of like a pinata at a Mexican birthday party where everyone wants to take a shot!

That's TOTAL BS spread by the enemy. Don't belive everything you hear. Your talking to the closest thing this website has to the resistance, why don't you ask me.

Uhmmm . . . let's see . . . because you are an immature maniacal rant who obviously lives in a sheltered world allowing yourself to see only what you feel supports your views. IMO you're the closest thing this website has to a resistance wannabe. I have asked you and I have even tried to gain more insight as to your viewpoint yet, no matter how much I tighten the noose around my neck, your views just don't come into focus.

Well thankyou for finally admitting it.

I admitted nothing! If you did not "see" the sarcasm, that was oooohhh so obvious, then here is another fine example of your immature ignorance and bliss.

HHAHAha your family will be blessed by your actions? WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAP?

Okay?! . . . Let's see . . .

"I am prepared to sacrifice my life. All I want is martyrdom. I'm willing for all my children to become martyrs. May my husband also become a martyr, and Allah willing, may I die as a martyr."

This is but just one example of the mentality of your so-called unified resistance. If you wish I will post more examples of "How to become a martyr in Iraq". The available links are virtually unlimited. Arab, US, etc.

[edit on 9/25/2005 by 12m8keall2c]