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If "Jesus" was "without sin" then WHY was he baptised by John the Baptist?

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posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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A fairly simple question, and one which comes up alot, but no answers are forthcoming from believers that make any sense.

Yet the early church couldn't seem to erase the tradition that "Jesus" was baptised "for the remission of sins" by John the Baptist--yet the whole episode was clearly an embarrasment for the early church as it is for modern "Christians" who have no real answer to give when someone asks "Why WAS Jesus Baptised if he was Supposed To Be Sinless?"

Occasionally you hear nonsense from "believers" e.g. "oh, he was baptised, well, because...um...um..because... umm..like it says...um...to ...um..."fuflfill all righteousness!!" etc. with a vague reference to Matthew's excuse in but this is essentially a non-answer..

See Matthew 3:13 etc.

"In those days came Iesous down from the Galilee to Yohanon at the Jordan [river]to be baptized by him. But Yohanon tried to prevent it, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you come to me?"

Ieosus then said to him "Permit this at this time for thus it is fitting for me to fulfill all righteousness." Then [Yohanon] allowed him [to be baptised in the Jordan].

More scholarly circles tend to argue that all this "fulfilling all righteousness" had more to do with the desire of "Iesous" to atone for his personal "sins of ignorance or ommission" (Numbers 15:22-41) by which Jews in the days before Israel was destroyed by Rome (pre AD 70) offered a special sacrifice in the temple at Jerusalem in order to cover the "sins" they may have committed in the course of the past year which they were not aware of.

Righteousness was apparently one of the key aspects of the earliest Churches who believed Israel's woes were caused by "unrighteousness" and it may appear that R. Yehoshua was "covering all of his bases" before he began his public career...

Sins of Ignorance opens up a whole new can of worms (i.e. "how can Iesous be ignorant of any sins he may have committed...? especially if one holds him to have been sinless or nearly omniscient as the Christ or Messiah of Israel).

The term may also may refer in a more general sense, i.e. referring also to " sins of Omission" (as opposed to Sins of Commission or "presumptuous sins") where a person sees an opportunity to help some one, and chooses not to (or "omits" doing the good deed or mitzvah = lit. "commandment")--and that "Ieosus" was here covering his bases to make sure that his mission started out without any "sins of ignorance" on the part of "Iesous".

In any event, the Hebrew (and Greek LXX translated) words behind the KJV English word "sin" are in many cases ambiguous, and permit some flexibility in translation, often merely translated into English as "sin."

The most common Hebrew word for generic sin is ("hataq") and its cognates, which can mean things like "misssing the mark" or "miss the path", or "incur ritual guilt" or "forfeit purity from uncleanness." etc.

This, or one of its cognates, is the word normally used for "sins of ignorance" in the socalled Hebrew Old Testament

Clearly it is so imprecise that it can bear both ethical connotations and legal ones. Other words which are similarly flexible include "asham" and "shagah", which likewise generally are translated as "sin" in English

But the question of the day is actually more basic : If "Iesous" (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) was "sinless" why was he "baptised for the remission of sins"?




posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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Jesus was baptised so that everyone could see he was telling the truth about who he was. Only when Jesus was baptised did the Holy SPirit came and showed himself to everyone who was present.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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You know what the answer will be right?

That it was not his sin he was shaking with the baptism but the sins of his sinful mother.

I always laugh at how religion blames women for the original sin.

This one is going to be a good thread.

You are right, why Jesus needed to be baptized when he was an incarnated God and without sin.

As usual the church believe in guilty children that is their reasoning behind baptism.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
You know what the answer will be right?

That it was not his sin he was shaking with the baptism but the sins of his sinful mother.

I always laugh at how religion blames women for the original sin.

This one is going to be a good thread.

You are right, why Jesus needed to be baptized when he was an incarnated God and without sin.

As usual the church believe in guilty children that is their reasoning behind baptism.


Thats dumb talk form Catholcis and OnceSavers who cant even read what the Bibel ells them... Jesus baptism had nothing to do with sin...it was a cerimony to show EVERYONE he was telling the truth.

The Bible says " dont blow your own horn, let others do it for you" , this way Jesus didnt have to go around saying "I'm this ...I'm that"... people SAW what he meant.

If women are so sinfull and dirt, why are so many preachers and priests always trying to get in their pants ?



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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I'm a Christian.


Wasn’t it the death of Jesus on the cross that made it possible for sins to be forgiven? You know his dying for our sins. I don’t think the baptism of Jesus was to have his sins washed away. It was his rebirth into the house of God.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:00 AM
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Well Jesus was a incarnated son of a "GOD" he should have been without anything human.

One of the biggest mistake of the creation of Jesus the " divine son of God" was to give him human attributes.

What does a God need to send a son to get human kind sins erased when he the God itself could have done it with his power and might.

How human can that be?

God created man, God let man sin, God get mad at man, then comes itself to erased the mankind sins having himself in human flesh nail to a cross.

It looks like God itself was very bored in his kingdom and needed something to do so he played with his most important creation.

Now that tells me that God may have been a child.


In the human sense but then again God has been humanized so much that he had all the characteristics of the man that created him not the other way around.

But then again its always ideology and not logic what fuels the faithul.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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marg6043, Are we talking about your belief or lack of belief in Christianity? No…we aren’t. Believe what you like, it’s ok with me, but let’s not lose the focus of this thread.

Anyway Jesus was born to a human mother.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:20 AM
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kinglizard

This is a "conspiracies in religon thread" so I am entitle to post on the conspiracy on why Jesus has to be baptised.

Now I believe that it was part of the humanity of the bible writtings and recollections that has to do the the baptism after all it was part of the Jewish tradition if you look into how baptism came to be it started with the Jewish people pools in from of their sacred temples where they used to wash themself before going inside.

by the way I believe in a "Creator" but not the one "Created by christianity"



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Hi NEOAMADEUS///

Jesus Christ was without sin!
As perfect man and perfect God.
God took flesh to become man and save man from the sin that caused DEATH.......
God took flesh and became a 'servant' (not for Himself)for mankind so that we all can be saved.
Since man was the first to eat of the tree (pre-figures the Cross of Christ)and bring DEATH to all man....God became man for US not for Himself.
He suffered for US not for Himself.

On the day of the Babtism of Christ....Theophany(meaning the appearance of God)

quote///Yet the early church couldn't seem to erase the tradition that "Jesus" was baptised "for the remission of sins" by John the Baptist....
The early church did not erase anything..... because everything that is written in the Bible is there for a purpose.

St John the Babtist is the forerunner of Christ.....He prepared the way for Christ.
"I baptise you with water...That One however will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" (Mt 3:11).
Paul found certain disciples and He said to them: into what were ye baptised? They answered: into the baptism of John.
Paul then said: John indeed baptised with the baptism of repentance," -- repentance, but not remission of sins; for whom did he baptise?
"Having proclaimed to the people, that they should believe in the One coming after him, namely, Christ Jesus.
Having heard this, they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus: and Paul laying his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them" (Acts 19:1-6).

CONCERNING CHRIST AND SIN....Peter ch.2 :21......For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example. that ye should follow his steps.
22...Who did no sin,
neither was guile found in his mouth:
23.Who, when he was reviled,
reviled not again;when he suffered, he threatened not;
but committed himself to him that judgeth righteosly:
24...who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins,
should live unto rightousness:
by whose stripes ye were healed.
25....For ye were as sheep going astray;but are now returned
unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
and further, "who of you convicteth Me of Sin?" (Jn 8:46).

quote///
Through the other two reasons, of which about the one the disciple speaks, and about the other He Himself spoke to John.
Which reason of this baptism did John declare? Namely, that Christ should become known to the people, as Paul also mentions: "John therefore baptised with the baptism of repentance, so that through him they should believe on Him that cometh" (Acts 19:4);
Discourse On the Day of the Baptism of Christ
St John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople........
Discourse On the Day of the Baptism of Christ

John the Baptist and his witness of our Lord Jesus Christ.......


(Matt. 3:1-12; Mark 1:1-8; Luke 3:1-18; John 1:15-31)
The emergence of John the Baptist to preach about and bear testimony to the Lord Jesus Christ, is narrated correspondingly by all the Evangelists, in nearly the same detail. John is the only one that omits certain details described by the others, instead, underlining Christ’s Divinity.

Saint Evangelist Luke gives important information as to the time of John the Baptist’s emergence, together with the time of the emergence of Christ Himself. He writes that this occurred “in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being the tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests” (Luke 3:1-2)

www.intratext.com...




At the time, there was a general expectation of the Messiah’s coming and moreover, when He did come, would baptise (John 1:25). So it is not surprising that many started to pose the question, is John Christ Himself? To this John replied that he baptises with water unto repentance (Matt. 3:11), ie. as a sign of repentance. But the One Who is coming after him is Mightier, Whom he, John, is not worthy to untie His sandals and carry them (Luke 3:16; Mark 1:7, 3:11)

www.intratext.com...

IX
helen



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Well Jesus was a incarnated son of a "GOD" he should have been without anything human.

One of the biggest mistake of the creation of Jesus the " divine son of God" was to give him human attributes.


Giving him humn attributes helped people identifying with him, and it would make it easier to listen to what he was saying.


What does a God need to send a son to get human kind sins erased when he the God itself could have done it with his power and might.
Because it is up to YOU to choose if you want to accpet Jesus sacrifice. Back in the old days, before Jesus most religious beliefs demamded human sacrifices to keep the gods pleased.

This God sent out his son to die for all of those who choose to follow him.
True the Bible says Jesus dies for the sin of humanity, but you still have to choose to accept that gift. Thats the point of the sacrifice.



How human can that be?
How human is an abortion for example? How human is murder? Humans do alot worse things to eachother than what God and His Son decided to do for humanity.


God created man, God let man sin.

would you rather be a puppet with no will ? If you look at God as aparent than its no so different of what humans do. All parents teach their children whats good and wahts bad, and than hope they rased them in a good way and that they make the right choice.


God get mad at man


Just like any parent would get mad at their kids, for choosing the worng option.


then comes itself to erased the mankind sins having himself in human flesh nail to a cross.
oh come on Marg you know thast not true.. God didnt get himself nailed ...lol


It looks like God itself was very bored in his kingdom and needed something to do so he played with his most important creation.

Now that tells me that God may have been a child.


No matter how you look at God and what he did, the point is His hand is open to you and whomever wants it. And if you decide not to choose it you can only balme yourself, not God. Im including myself in this group, i still dont know if I want to take His hand or not, but I will look at both sides the best way I can.


In the human sense but then again God has been humanized so much that he had all the characteristics of the man that created him not the other way around.


Wasn't man suppose to be created at The Image of God ? That there should not be many differences...


But then again its always ideology and not logic what fuels the faithul.
thats a pretty undermining statement of yours, taking that are som many "logical" doctors, scientists, mathematians who are followers of the christaina faith...In fcat there seem to be more Christian or Christians Oriented "genious" than not.

I always wonder why are people so hostile against Christianity, but than I check out TBN channel...i think..."Oh ...thats one of the reasons"

Sad thing is ...thats not what God had in mind at all.




posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:33 AM
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BaastetNoir


Jesus was baptised so that everyone could see he was telling the truth about who he was. Only when Jesus was baptised did the Holy SPirit came and showed himself to everyone who was present.


Thank you!

Simple and without quotes.


IX
helen



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:45 AM
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Its all about ideologies, and personal interpretations guided by what the church dependant of the bible wants the believer to interpret.

Now taking in consideration that the believe on the trinity did not started with Jesus time, it was acepted by the church as a credo by 325 CE, then we most go back to the original topic why Jesus needed to be baptised.

Perhpas because it was part of the ritual of cleasing done by the Jewish people? historical fact.

Then adopted by the church as the "cleansing of the sins" and the link ot the holy spirit? later on.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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NEOAMADEUS

I think you are missing the point of the passage. Jesus was not being baptisied for the remission of his sin but for the remission of mankind's sin.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself and I believe this is the moment it happened. Everyone has free will to choose even Jesus, this is evident when Jesus tells Pilate that even then he could call on God the Father and he would sen legions of Angels to his aid. He had a choice. Now at that moment Jesus choose to accept the the path that lead to his sacrifice and he was baptised for all our sins. That is why his Father opended heaven and said this is my son whom I love, in Him I am well pleased.

[Innerwitness 9/22/2005]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Perhpas because it was part of the ritual of cleasing done by the Jewish people? historical fact.


very possible, Jesus was Jewish weather some people likes it or not.

In the case of Jesus baptism I believe that it was God's way to show everyone that is was true, and than let everyone choose for themselves.

Now in the case of belivers, I believ its a cerimony...as if you were beein born again (thats why they go that name from..born again christians).

The person in question choose to Follow God thro Jesus, and the baptism symbolises the wash away of the past life, the re-birth to a new life, where hopefully you will choose the propper things to do.

Thats why Baptism is only for believrs, grown people or at least old enough to make their own decisions.



Then adopted by the church as the "cleansing of the sins" and the link ot the holy spirit? later on.


the churches and organized religion have been screwing up the all painting and its their main fault that Christianity has been turned into the circus that it is today. but than again many people choose to follow them blindly...but thats a all different movie.

anyway, so i dont get out of topic here ...this is why i believe (according to what the Bible says) Jesus was baptised :

Jesus was baptised so that everyone could see he was telling the truth about who he was. Only when Jesus was baptised did the Holy SPirit came and showed himself to everyone who was present.



Originally posted by helen670

Thank you!

Simple and without quotes.


IX
helen


Thanks Helen
... i do once in awhile try to post something that may be worth reading and even make some since...lol



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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Well then if Jesus took the sin of the world upon himself and had them wash by John.

I will have to ask, why did he needed then to be nail to a cross? The baptism would have been enough to cleanse the world. Right?

I guess it was not enough because he then proceeded to have himself nail to a cross and die "Again for our sins"

Or perhaps we should take into accounts the historical facts that he was a wanted man and was executed as by the ways of the time during pass over.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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No conspiracy. Post in correct forums, please



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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But also let not forget that the concept of born again christians is more of the modern times.

I guess now that the thread has been move I guess is nothing more to add.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by marg6043]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Or perhaps we should take into accounts the historical facts that he was a wanted man and was executed as by the ways of the time during pass over.


What made Jesus a wanted man was the recognition and power he was getting, People were seeing the miracles, the teachings made sence, he asked for no money, and above all he claimed to be the Son of God, who came has the Lamb and not as the warrior the Jewish Priests expected. That made him a heretic, and heresy was punished by death sentence.

Also The Roman Governor at the time, didnt want an up-rise from the majority of the Jewish people, specially because of " just one man", that would get him in trouble with Cesar in Rome.

So the best thing to do to keep everyone happy and quiet, was getting ridd of yashua. Thats what it was suppose to happen, and thats why Yashua didn not flee Jersualem. He stayed and finsihed is part of the deal.

The fact that there are so many historical facts, does not mean the spiritual part cant be true as well...



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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I agree with you on the historical part of it and the troubles that Jesus was causing to the Roman empire in their times it was only one descendant to the Throne and link to the "Gods" and that was the Cesar.

Also Jesus was to much trouble in the masses and was making the populace to unstable with his new age teachings different with the teachings of the times specially for the Jewish community Jesus didn't approve of many of their ways.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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marg/


Well then if Jesus took the sin of the world upon himself and had them wash by John.

I will have to ask, why did he needed then to be nail to a cross? The baptism would have been enough to cleanse the world. Right?

I guess it was not enough because he then proceeded to have himself nail to a cross and die "Again for our sins"

Or perhaps we should take into accounts the historical facts that he was a wanted man and was executed as by the ways of the time during pass over.


The Cross of Christ represents the TREE in the Garden of Eden......SIN....DEATH
The cause of DEATH occured after the eating of the fruit from the TREE ....
DEATH became the norm.
There was no DEATH prior to man falling away from God.

Babtism.....WATER in the Old testament pre figures cleansing....
FLOOD......cleansed the whole world of unrightousness....(I have posted this before)



Water as a symbol of life as well as a means of cleansing, or purification, is of particular importance in the Old Testament (see Reymond, L’eau, sa Vie, et sa Signification dans l’Ancien Testament). It was created on the first day (Genesis 1:2, 6-8). The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2). The earth was founded upon the waters (Genesis 1:6-7, 9-10).]The meaning of water....

Meaning of Water


Marg you said previously/quote.......Perhpas because it was part of the ritual of cleasing done by the Jewish people? historical fact.

Then adopted by the church as the "cleansing of the sins" and the link ot the holy spirit? later on.
It was part of the ritual........
Jesus Christ came to fullfill the missing spaces in the Old Testament.......He did not change it, but fullfilled the prophecies and destroyed'''' DEATH '''
The STING OF SIN is death.....I forget where this is.....???
‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).

The Tree brought man DEATH.......An instrument of death, it has become the instrument of salvation.
The Cross of Christ brings man into a NEW life.......it is said, that the Cross was made of three types of wood.....

Christ knew of what was to happen to Him.....It was prophecied ....
Here is one amongst many ,many others in the Old Testament....
quote///
“I thirst!” (19:28-30), adding to this : “That the Scripture might be fulfilled.” In depicting the sufferings of the Messiah, the Psalmist in the 69th Psalm, verse 21, truly foretells this: “And in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” According to Saint John, having received the sour wine, the Lord exclaimed: “It is finished!” i.e.: the Mutually Divine and predetermined deed is accomplished — the redemption of the human race and its reconciliation with God, had been accomplished through the death of the Messiah (John 19:30).

explanation of the Gospels

Jesus Christ was Crucified at the Passover .....quote/// The time of Herod the Great’s reign. From Mat. 2:1-18 and Luke 1:5, it is absolutely clear that Christ was born when Herod was in power. He ruled from the 714th year of the establishment of the Roman Empire and died in 750, 8 days before Passover (Pascha) and soon after the lunar eclipse.
According to the astronomers’ calculations, the eclipse occurred on the night of the 13th or 14th of March, while the Jewish Pascha fell on the 12th of April in that year. Consequently, Herod died at the beginning of April in 750th year of the establishment of Rome — at least 4 years earlier than that established by Dionysius.
here

IX
helen



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