Originally posted by resistance
Shanty -- My gripe is not with the teachers. The teachers are hired to do a job, and they do the job the way they are taught to do it and with the materials and agenda they are given to promote. If they want to eat, they conform.

My gripe is with government schools, period. As you say, whose world view is going to be promoted in the schools? Some years ago it was the Christian, patriotic American point of view. Now it's Groupthink, down with America, down with Christians, up with atheism, up with globalism, up with Everybody's Right, Nobody's Wrong, Let's Just Get Along, and Tolerance of Intolerance Will Not Be Tolerated.

The system corrupts everyone -- teachers and students alike. And it's not fair to make those who have opted out have to pay for this indoctrination which teaches other people's kids to hate what we love and to love what we hate. This is contrary to the Constitution, and the Constitution never meant for the government to raise our kids or educate them. The answer is for parents to take their kids out of these schools, build their own schools, and hire their own teachers who will promote the world views the parents want promoted.

Rausch -- I'm not trying to force you to conform to my opinions. How could I do that? But if you are willing to read what I say then you take the risk of becoming persuaded to my point of view because obviously that's what I'm trying to do -- convince and persuade. If I can do that, I'm happy. That's really why I'm here. Especially being in a tiny minority as you so correctly point out, I see ATS as a small opening for me to speak up. The day is soon coming when nobody will be able to speak up IMO. In fact, the Senate is about to ratify "hate" legislation which will shut the mouths of even pastors in their own churches from preaching what the Bible has to say about things like abortion or homosexuality.


[edit on 16-10-2005 by resistance]

Currently there is nothing in what your saying contray to the constitution. There is no constitutional right that says "A person should not have to pay a tax for something he or she does not use" its a state tax, its a deal with it situation. Even Moreso, your belief in that the schools are brainwashing kids into being atheists is moot due to the simple fact of the first amendment. Freedom of Religion and the Establishment clause. In a world of sue-happy people, there has yet to be one law suit case against this, why, because it doesnt exist. Theres no atheist agenda here. Maybe if you really deem education so offensive, you should just round everybody up, and form a quaker-esque community where you make your own schools and live outside the realm of public school taxation.

Remember, there was a time when Creationism was the only thing taught in schools, the bible was a required reading material every day for thirty minutes, without commenting on it(Abington School District v. Schempp), where prayers where needed before the school day started (Engel v. Vitale) . If anything, this is an example of the brainwashing in public schools you speak of.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, we see no real push to do the same on the "evil atheist" side of the fight. If public schools were pushing for an anti-christian pro-atheism agenda, as you frivilously claim, we would see things like: The Mandatory reading of the Origin of Species, without commenting on it, or the abolishment of the freedom to pray within public schools. Abolishing all religious holidays.

You don't see, and ever will see such things in public schools, because it doesnt exist. Its made up. There is an absence of religion in public schools, yes, but that is because it is making room to not make a stance on other peoples religious beliefs. There is no atheism being taught in schools, they aren't teaching against christianity, or any other religion, its a purely academic society.

Originally posted by resistance
I think the first thing you need to do is take a remedial reading class yourself.

Again you react with insults, resistance. I would once again ask you to refrain from doing so, but I fear it will have little effect, since you have failed to respond in the slightest to my previous requests. I will, however, ask that you kindly stop yelling at me. Using CAPS is considered extremely rude in forums and I really do not appreciate it. Surely we are able to discus these issues without the need for yelling to get our points across.

Originally posted by resistance
I DID NOT SAY teachers DON'T teach responsibility. I said THEY ARE NOT TRAINED to do so.

Yes, I know, because I responded to what you said:

Originally posted by Jeremiah25
Some of us have not been indoctrinated by Government schooling, since we went to religious schools. We have also not been brainwashed or taught to do any of the things you have claimed at a tertiary level.

What I, and the other teachers who have contributed to this thread are telling you is that we are taught to instil and teach responsibility. The indoctrination or brainwashing or training you seem to think that teachers receive, in order to better push some kind of amoral, atheistic agenda, simply does not exist. We are trained in aspects of how to create units, assessment and materials, as well as behaviour management and pedagogical theory. I fear that the reality is greatly divorced from the image you have. But, even though a number of current teachers have told you this, you still refuse to accept it.

Originally posted by resistance
How can they do that when people like you have drummed it into their heads for years that their opinions aren't any better than anybody else's, and to be careful not to offend anybody? Gimme a break! Talk is cheap.

Quite easily. You see, we teach our students that different opinions can be equally respected. This does not mean that we are teaching them to believe what somebody else believes. Not at all. We are simply teaching them that other people are entitled to their own opinions. They are allowed and, indeed, encouraged to believe whatsoever they will. As long as they do not belittle somebody who believes differently, that is fine.

Originally posted by resistance
If it's anything like in this country you pretend God doesn't exist, you deliberately skip over mention of God, and you redefine the holidays so no mention is made of any Christian holiday. It's okay to get out for Hannukah or Ramadin but it's Winter Vacation, not Christmas vacation, and it's spring break, not Easter break. I could say more, lots more.

Well, I feel I am not in a position to comment on this issue from an American standpoint. Clearly this is another example of institutional differences. I shall simply say that, for me personally, complete avoidance of religion at school is impossible and unwise.

Originally posted by resistance
You said you don't give a raip about what people think about abortion or homosexuality. This is called "amoral," or no morals. Look it up. You are bragging about the fact that you have no morals except that of so-called "tolerance," which isn't even that because you in fact have no tolerance for people like me who have strong views about morality.

You misunderstand me. I said that I don’t care what my students think about these issues. I couldn’t care less if they think differently to me on these issues. Many of my students feel that homosexuality is wrong, for example. Do I tell them not to believe this? No. Do I try to teach them not to believe this? No. Have I been given any training to teach them not to believe this? No. Do I teach them that, even though they may hate homosexuals, they cannot harm somebody who is homosexual? Absolutely. I am not amoral. If I were, surely I wouldn’t care about drugs, which I do. I think drugs are evil things which poison people’s souls. I am not teaching my students to be amoral. What I am saying is “It’s okay to have strong opinions on moral issues. It is not okay to physically injure somebody because your morals disagree with theirs”. Again I ask you directly – do you disagree with this?

Originally posted by resistance
That's nonsense. I don't live on the moon. I went to teacher's college myself. I see what's going on.

I am sorry, but a number of teachers have pointed out that your statements about what teacher’s training and public schools in general is like are misinformed. How long ago did you go to teacher’s college? Because I admit that schools used to be a lot worse than they are. I think that if every teacher here is telling you that the reality is different to what you think it is, then perhaps you need to re-examine your own thoughts on this matter.

Originally posted by resistance
See below. This is you. This is the nonsense you advocate. Why? Because you've been taught to do this, and you are a good, compliant group-thinker yourself.

I have said this before, but you appear not to listen. I have not been taught to be a compliant group-thinker, nor have I subsequently taught this to my students. I have explained how I make great pains to enable my students to be independent thinkers. Many times I have said that my main goal is to enable students to think for themselves. Why can you not accept this?

Originally posted by resistance
Yes, I do think my opinion is "worth" more than yours is. Anybody that doesn't know what they believe or value what they believe and have confidence in what they believe is just a mushball lemming.

I am afraid that your opinion is not worth more than mine, whatever you may believe to the contrary. You are simply not listening. I do know what I believe. I even outlined my personal beliefs on a number of issues for you:

Originally posted by Jeremiah25
I do know what I believe: drugs=bad, underage sex=very bad, unprotected sex=very bad, abortion=fine, homosexuality=fine.

So you see, I do know what I believe and value and I have a great sense of confidence in my beliefs. I believe in a great many other things, besides, including God. For you to say that I do not know what I believe when I have clearly stated and demonstrated otherwise suggests that you have not adequately followed my discussion from one thought to another.

You make my point very well in your above paragraph. Your belief and what you try to teach your students with all earnestness and determination is that everybody's right, nobody's wrong, and let's just get along. If I had my way you would not be allowed to teach this nihilistic amoral philosophy to anyone's child anyplace on this planet.

Once again, this is neither what I said nor what I meant. I was very clear on this issue: I am not teaching my students to be nihilistic or amoral. I want them to have strong morals, as I have said. I want them to care about things, again, as I said. Why are you still insisting that I have said otherwise, when I have been very clear? Let me be clear once more, to refute what you have said. I am not and do not want to teach my students that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. I simply want them to weigh all sides of an argument before they make a decision one way or the other, so that they can make an informed choice in determining what is right and what is wrong, which I expect them to do. This is clearly counter to your claim that I am teaching a “nihilistic amoral philosophy”.

Resistance, it appears that you are ignoring much of what I, and the other teachers here, say. When I demonstrated that I do have moral beliefs, for example, you immediately claimed that I didn’t know what I believed. I urge you to consider what I am actually saying and not simply your own interpretation based on a need to defend your flagging argument.


[edit on 16/10/05 by Jeremiah25]

Jeremiah -- Let's just agree to disagree. I've stated my position and you've stated yours, and there's no use running round and round the same barn.

This is a forum on brainwashing students. You say no. I say yes. One other person here agrees with me.

I made my points strongly because that's the way I debate, but I don't need to keep making them over and over. I can't force you to agree with me. But just because you are a teacher does not mean you can just come on here and say, there is no brainwashing being done in the schools because I'm a teacher and I say it's so.

I have given good reasons to back up my position that there IS brainwashing.
In my opinion they are good reasons.

But if you want to convince me of your point of view you're going to have to do better than just tell me to believe you because you say so, and truly I don' think you have a clue as to what I'm trying to say here. I've tried to make it as pointed and strong as I could make it, but it's not working. So I'll just let it go. Maybe down the road something I've said here will strike some cord and you'll get what I've been trying to say.

Originally posted by resistance
Maybe down the road something I've said here will strike some cord and you'll get what I've been trying to say.

I understand what you are trying to say. Really, I do. But I agree that there is little point to persistent back and forth repetition of arguments. I would very much like to speak with you more concerning the idea that Mystery_Lady proposed - of looking at the workings of Education in a broader sense, from its beginnings in modern America until now, to identify and analyse any trends or specific agendas that were present and to see how Education can indeed be used to further the goals of a specific group.

Because there are aspects of Government involvement in schools with which I am uncomfortable. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they constitute brainwashing, but there are times when a piece of "advice" will work its way down from government to suit a specific political agenda. I think that you and I may find ourselves agreeing with one another more on this kind of issue, where we can perhaps find common ground.

Mystery_Lady has said that she will create such a thread in the future and, since it was her idea, I shall allow her to do so rather than to create one myself. I have many historical examples of how schooling has been used as a mouth-piece for the Government in the past and I would be extremely interested in hearing your opinion on the matter. When ML does get the thread up and running, I look forward to discussing these broader issues there with you.

Wolf -- You said

Currently there is nothing in what your saying contray to the constitution. There is no constitutional right that says "A person should not have to pay a tax for something he or she does not use" its a state tax, its a deal with it situation. Even Moreso, your belief in that the schools are brainwashing kids into being atheists is moot due to the simple fact of the first amendment. Freedom of Religion and the Establishment clause. In a world of sue-happy people, there has yet to be one law suit case against this, why, because it doesnt exist. Theres no atheist agenda here. Maybe if you really deem education so offensive, you should just round everybody up, and form a quaker-esque community where you make your own schools and live outside the realm of public school taxation.

Fact is, it's welfare. It's socialism and welfare, and it's not what the founders had in mind when they drew up our Declaration and our Constitution. It's out of the realm of the government's responsibilities. It is a violation of the First Amendment of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and the govenment has no business telling anybody how to think, what to think, what not to think, what is right, what is wrong, and to force anybody to pay for this indoctrination if they don't want to. People who want their children taught the way the government schools teach should build their own schools and hire their own teachers and put their own kids in it, and not expect other people to pay for it.

People nowadays seem to have very little appreciation for or understanding of freedom. Blessed, wonderful freedom. I'm talking freedom -- not license. Not license to read or distribute porn or to kill unborn babies or to prance down Main Street in an Outfest Gay Pride Parade. But freedom to live our lives, raise our children, and practice our religion freely. That's what the Pilgrims came here for, and if they could see where we are now they'd wonder why they bothered to start this whole mess!

DS had to take the psat today (it is given once a year--in the "junior" year of hs it counts for alot of the big $ scholarships). It must be taken at a traditional school and I ate major dirt dealing with our public high school to get him allowed to take it. He was expecting to feel like odd man out with all the other students commiserating w/ their friends over having to take the test and sharing their nervousness. Instead he says he met the most unemotional, most detached group of people he has been among. According to him he never heard the voices of the other students from the moment they entered the room. He attempted to make small talk before the test proctor came in but was met w/ shrugs and nods. When the test was over the proctor announced they would stay there until the regular time to switch classes came. DS pulled out a book but said that the rest of the students just sat there mutely staring ahead or into their laps.

A lot of it is not as bad as it sounds when presented here. Take my word for it that as soon as that test is finsihed, they will be going nuts right outside the classroom. A lot of the reasons for the insistence on "drone-like" behaviour during exams such as this is practical more than anything else. Students are forbidden from talking because it interfers with the concentration of other students. The reason the students did not wish to make small-talk is probably because they are extremely nervous (and it has been my considerable experience that when students get really, genuinely nervous, they get quiet), as well as the fact that they have been told not to speak because it disrupts the mental preparations and concentration of other students, as I said.

The reason why you have to remain after the exam is finished is also so that the noise and distractions of people getting up, collecting their things and leaving does not disturb the other students.

As for not being able to read when the test is over, I usually let my kids read, or give them a blank sheet of paper to scribble on. I know that a lot of teachers do not allow these things because they may be used in some way to cheat. I know, I know, it's a stretch, and I am against not letting them at least have a book to read, but that is the reason for it.

Rest assured, as I said, that the students have not been turned into zombies or emotionless drones. Believe me, they can be quite emotional. In this particular situation, their silenece and seeming apathy is due to a combination of practicality and terror, nothing more. I have seen many bright, happy, emotionally healthy kids react exactly the same way during exams.

Hope this helps calm your fears a little.

I'd have to agree with with Jeremiah. Its basically just nerves and also some of the issues with breaking others concentration. I had taken the PSAT a few years ago at a Catholic school that was sponsoring the school as a testing ground. It was the same thing experienced in the article. Everybody seemed really nervous, and they were all real quiet, trying to keep every little useless trivial fact for the test crammed in their brains. After the test was over, and we left, alot of people justleft home quietly, or hung around and talked. I think the major issue though for the reason everybody was quiet, is that the PSATs are normally taken around 6am in the morning, on a Saturday. So you have these kids, studying all the night before, after school, probably late into the night, went to sleep, had to wake up early on a Saturday, to drive over to a school, take a test, and go home. I wasn't very talkative either, I dont think anybodywould have been.

WolfofWar and Jeremiah25 thank you for clearing that up for me.

Jeremiah25 go ahead and start the thread. I really need to take a break from this forum. My thinking has gotten a little too negative lately. I also have other things I really need to get done. Not to mention I also have to create a website for my mom who is an antique and realistic artifical fruit dealer. She has been in business for over 20 years, so you can imagine how much stuff she has. Her fruit and vegetable list is long and distinguished. It is going to take me awhile to get it initially set up. Since she doesn't have a computer or know how to update, I'll have to do that for her. Not to mention she is finally entering into the e-bay realm.

I'll probablly pop up here and there, but as I said I need a break and maybe a long one. It is not good to think negatively most of the time. I believe working for my mom will help some also.

I've decided we're ALL brainwashed! But certainly the kids indoctrinated in the government schools are more so. We are about to enter into the NWO. The plans are laid and ready to go. It will unfold very quickly. We have many people who think it will be a very good thing to eliminate a large proportion of the population in order to save the whales, save the trees, save the whatever. These same people have been brought up on the idea that it's a good thing to kill babies to solve problems (abortion). They are already primed to accept euthanasia if they're not already active proponents of it.

We are surrounded by brainwashed zealots who also think Christians are the main cause of what's wrong in the world today (actually we're to blame for most of what's RIGHT) -- but that's okay.

So when the police state comes and everybody is turning everybody else in, who do you think will be at the front lines to bring in the NWO? The ones who were trained in the government schools -- who else?

And government school teachers give me the creeps, kinda like psychiatrists give me the creeps and some other establishment types. The Bible says, What man highly esteems God sees as an abomination. Well, I have to say, I agree with God on this. I sure do. I would go and become an Amish, but then I couldn't witness. Otherwise I sure enough would want to drop out of this craziness.

Get my drift?

Originally posted by resistance
And government school teachers give me the creeps, kinda like psychiatrists give me the creeps and some other establishment types. The Bible says, What man highly esteems God sees as an abomination. Well, I have to say, I agree with God on this. I sure do. I would go and become an Amish, but then I couldn't witness. Otherwise I sure enough would want to drop out of this craziness.

Get my drift?

Sadly, I do. And all too clearly.







(tker in action)

Originally posted by resistance
I've decided we're ALL brainwashed! But certainly the kids indoctrinated in the government schools are more so. We are about to enter into the NWO. The plans are laid and ready to go. It will unfold very quickly. We have many people who think it will be a very good thing to eliminate a large proportion of the population in order to save the whales, save the trees, save the whatever. These same people have been brought up on the idea that it's a good thing to kill babies to solve problems (abortion). They are already primed to accept euthanasia if they're not already active proponents of it.

We are surrounded by brainwashed zealots who also think Christians are the main cause of what's wrong in the world today (actually we're to blame for most of what's RIGHT) -- but that's okay.

So when the police state comes and everybody is turning everybody else in, who do you think will be at the front lines to bring in the NWO? The ones who were trained in the government schools -- who else?

And government school teachers give me the creeps, kinda like psychiatrists give me the creeps and some other establishment types. The Bible says, What man highly esteems God sees as an abomination. Well, I have to say, I agree with God on this. I sure do. I would go and become an Amish, but then I couldn't witness. Otherwise I sure enough would want to drop out of this craziness.

Get my drift?

Resistance, sounds to me like you've been listening to too much Pink Floyd recently. It's a great song, but you don't have to take it literally.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

(Pink Floyd, Another Brick in the Wall Part 2 (Waters) )

My daughter is living proof the system works.

The state sent out the PSSA results. I got my daughter's today (ok, so she is the "gifted" one, but if the schools are full of B.S., then "gifted" is just a title, right? )

Your child's 2005 PSSA results for [name deleted for obvious reasons]:
Reading:1604
(Below Basic-1097 Basic-1098 thru 1234 Proficient-1235 thru 1441 Advanced 1442 and above)

Mathematics:1696
(Below Basic-1049 Basic-1050 thru 1179 Proficient-1180 thru 1369 Advanced 1370 and above)

She may have natural talent, and I like to think I had something to do with it, but I certainly think that the schools have helped her achieve her potential...and WAY above!

[Note: no, I do not have a link for this information. This was mailed to me. I can give you a scanned copy, if needed. Just u2u me.]

Oh, and pride may be a sin...but man! I am SO proud of her!

Originally posted by ketoes13
Have you ever noticed that when you learn about government, that teachers always teach you about the american government first. Ever since preschool, teachers have drilled into my mind that our government is the best. only after 13 years of school do they even begin to teach you about foreign governments.

does anyone else here realise this?

[edit on 22-9-2005 by ketoes13]

Thats true, im in 9th grade, still didn't learn anything BIG about foreighn goverments. weird