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brainwashing students

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posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 03:47 AM
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Mystery Lady -- Great post.

Jeremiah -- Don't know what the schools are like in Australia. I'm an American and I think the schools here suck. Furthermore, it's just welfare. It's not the government's JOB to raise the kids or to educate them. Rather, it's the parents. Our Constitutional government here does not grant the government, federal or state, the right to raise the kids, to insist on any kind of worldview, ESPECIALLY one that is atheistic, with an enforced belief in evolution, abortion as a solution to problems, teaching that people are just animals and need to therefore be taught "Safe Sex," that homosexuality is just another kind of lifestyle that's no better or no worse than any other kind of lifestyle (and would you like some statistics to prove that is a huge LIE?) --

Mostly the schools are doing a poor job of teaching basic academics and a very good job of corrupting morals and ruining character of all the young people who are its victims. They teach groupthink and do it from K on up to 12th grade. Rather than individuals being responsible for their own work, they are taught to work and think in groups. They then do this instinctively throuhgout their lives -- waiting to see which direction the crowd is going and then running to keep up, no matter where it's going. This is in effect teaching people to ignore their consciences, to ignore the fact that they are human beings at all, but just to be compliant little slaves who are ready for the School of Lifelong Learning -- which is the actual title of planned career training that the federal government has given to their grand scheme.

You see, the government here in America was originally set up to protect the inalienable (i.e. God-given, God-infused) rights of the citizens. The governmetn has one purppose and one purpose only -- which is to PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF ITS CITIZENS. Instead, this government has turned into a behemoth monster that thinks the citizens are here to serve IT, and it no longer cares about protecting anybody's rights, only grabbing more and more authority and seizing what little freedom is left from the citizens it is supposed to be protecting.

As to your statements about "facilitating" discussions with kids on marijuana, if you ever did such a thing with my child I would be livid. Just livid. Unless you are willing to teach my child what I believe about pot -- which is that it's a dangerous and destructive drug and to stay away -- then you'd better keep your mouth shut and DO NOT INTERFERE. Otherwise, I consider that to be corrupting my child. Other parents may not mind you doing that to their child, but I certainly do. Anybody that tries to sit as an authority with my child and invite her to discuss with her peers the so-called "Pros and cons" of pot deserves to be FIRED.

Same with engaging my child in discussions about "Safe Sex."

If you as a teacher are not willing to take a definite stand on what is right and what is wrong in the areas of drugs, sex, abortion, homosexuality, or any other matter then you just need to button your lip and you should not be teaching anything other than perhaps math or chemistry or grammar. Not literature, history or science. If you don't know what you believe yourself, you should not be teaching other people. And if what you believe is in contradiction to what the parents believe, then you are undermining their authority and corrupting the morals of minor children.




posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 04:12 AM
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Maybe we could all try to practice some tolerance here inclucing myself. I would try to take a look at a different aspect of this subject of brainwashing students as the title states and look at the broader picture of it as social reform and the plans the few in the extremely "elite" class has for us from even as far back as 1913.


Mystery_Lady
I think that an examination of this kind would be extremely good. Although I do not believe that our governments have specific agendas, there are aspects of government influence in education which I consider to be serving the government's immediate interests. I think this would be great to discuss.




Jeremiah -- Don't know what the schools are like in Australia. I'm an American and I think the schools here suck. Furthermore, it's just welfare.


Obviously there are differences between our two systems, which I am quite prepared to admit to. And certainly you have the right to think whatever you wish. I personally agree with welfare for education, but again this could be a difference in upbringings which I am also prepared to accept.



As to your statements about "facilitating" discussions with kids on marijuana, if you ever did such a thing with my child I would be livid. Just livid. Unless you are willing to teach my child what I believe about pot -- which is that it's a dangerous and destructive drug and to stay away -- then you'd better keep your mouth shut and DO NOT INTERFERE. Otherwise, I consider that to be corrupting my child. Other parents may not mind you doing that to their child, but I certainly do. Anybody that tries to sit as an authority with my child and invite her to discuss with her peers the so-called "Pros and cons" of pot deserves to be FIRED.


Well, that's your opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it. In response I would argue that it is important to make students aware of both sides of the argument, to enable them to make an educated decision for themselves. understand, I wasn't sitting in the classroom saying "Drugs are great, kids". I showed evidence that marijuana damages the brain and highlighted the social and emotional problems it brings, but I also allowed people to express an opposing point of view. If you think I should be fired for doing this, then fair enough. But so many kids use marijuana these days that I was really just looking for a way to halt its use by making the kids decide for themselves not to try it.



If you as a teacher are not willing to take a definite stand on what is right and what is wrong in the areas of drugs, sex, abortion, homosexuality, or any other matter then you just need to button your lip and you should not be teaching anything other than perhaps math or chemistry or grammar. Not literature, history or science. If you don't know what you believe yourself, you should not be teaching other people. And if what you believe is in contradiction to what the parents believe, then you are undermining their authority and corrupting the morals of minor children.


But here is the problem - what you consider to be right and wrong are different to what somebody else thinks is right and wrong. And if you want people to respect your point of view, you must be prepared to do the same in return. I do know what I believe: drugs=bad, underage sex=very bad, unprotected sex=very bad, abortion=fine, homosexuality=fine. You may disagree with me, but that is what makes our countries great. We can disagree with each other without screaming at each other.
I certainly have definite beliefs and if my students ask me what they are, I will happily tell them: "No, I don't think there is anything worng with homosexuality. Yes, I think there is something very wrong with drugs". Am I corrupting them in doing so? I don't think so - these things exist beyond me. I am just a person they can talk to about these things.

I do not expect you to agree with what I have said in this post, but please understand that everybody is different and not everyone feels the same way you do about all things. I accept that you feel differently than I on these issues and I think it's great that you have such love for your children. But please understand that I am simply trying to give a teacher's opinion that, although it may be contrary to your own, is just as valid.

[edit on 14/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 05:18 AM
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Jeremiah -- You said

But here is the problem - what you consider to be right and wrong are different to what somebody else thinks is right and wrong. And if you want people to respect your point of view, you must be prepared to do the same in return.


This is utter ludicrous dung. I don't want my kid going to school to learn to "respect others' point of view." I want her to learn the point of view that I want her to have, and she's going to know what that point of view is in no uncertain terms. I don't want her equivocating about pot, or abortion, or homosexuality, or atheism. I will teach my child manners and how to be polite but believe you me she will not "respect" these wicked things. She will see them for what they are with her eyes wide open. She will hate them because I have taught her to hate them. Why? Because I hate them myself and I am the parent, and I want to protect my child from this kind of evil stuff. I want my child to be happy, to have a good life, and to have an eternity in Heaven. I DON'T WANT MY CHILD RESPECT EVIL. I want my child to HATE evil.

Hate. That's a good word. Too bad the only thing you are able to whip yourself into hating is intolerance. Educrats Dictionary said it: WE WILL NOT TOLERATE INTOLERANCE !#%!#%!#%



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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Here's some information about the Gay Straight Alliance Clubs that some on this thread think are just peachy to have in the schools.





Homosexual High School Clubs on Parade: A Tragedy in our Midst

There are some very sad photos of "gay" youth during the Boston 2005 Gay Youth Pride Parade, at the link below.

Be sure to scroll down to see the various high school homosexual clubs, or "GSAs"(Gay straight alliances). Not to sterotype--but these are some very lost-looking young people.

www.gbpflag.org...

Parents who allow this to go on in the name of TOLERANCE need to wake up and step out of the Lemming Parade.


[edit on 14-10-2005 by resistance]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by resistance
This is utter ludicrous dung. I don't want my kid going to school to learn to "respect others' point of view." I want her to learn the point of view that I want her to have, and she's going to know what that point of view is in no uncertain terms. I don't want her equivocating about pot, or abortion, or homosexuality, or atheism. I will teach my child manners and how to be polite but believe you me she will not "respect" these wicked things. She will see them for what they are with her eyes wide open. She will hate them because I have taught her to hate them. Why? Because I hate them myself and I am the parent, and I want to protect my child from this kind of evil stuff. I want my child to be happy, to have a good life, and to have an eternity in Heaven. I DON'T WANT MY CHILD RESPECT EVIL. I want my child to HATE evil.

Hate. That's a good word. Too bad the only thing you are able to whip yourself into hating is intolerance. Educrats Dictionary said it: WE WILL NOT TOLERATE INTOLERANCE !#%!#%!#%


No offence, resistance, but there's really no need to make this personal. Calling my opinion "utter ludicrous dung" is quite insulting and certainly not called for. Especially when I have made significant efforts to respect your opinions and those of others who share different views to my own. Mystery_Lady and I seem to be communicating respectfully enough, for example, even though we clearly have radically opposing points of view.

Naturally you do not want your child respecting and learning about such things. This is the reason why you homeschool your child. But not everbody shares your views, and the point I made was that teachers may have different views to those of your own. I do not consider homosexuality, for example, to be evil and cannot understand why some people do. I respect your right to hold that opinion, though, and even though I may disagree with you, you will not hear me be so rude as to insult you the same way you insulted me.

Is hate a good word? No, I don't think it is. I do not feel we should be teaching our students to hate anything. We've had thousands of years of hating each other and it has gotten us nowhere. I teach my students to respect people, not concepts or actions. I teach my students that, even though they may feel that homosexuality is a grave sin, they do not have the right to belittle or harm someone because they are homosexual. If this runs counter to your own beliefs, I understand, but you home-school your children anyway, so why are you concerned? Are there things I personally hate? Of course, I'm only human after all. But I try to teach my students to aspire to be better than I am. I would not want my child to hate anything, but there we are clearly different. To me, the statement



She will hate them because I have taught her to hate them.


runs counter to what we should be teaching students.

I do hate intolerance, amongst other things, and will continue to teach my students that it is not okay to be prejudiced against someone because they are different. I understand that you have a difference of opinion here, but I again ask you to please refrain from making personal insults. This is an interesting topic and we have thus far been able to discuss it from a number of different points of view without resorting to such unpleasantness. I would like to continue to do so.

[edit on 14/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Resistance, it sounds like you want your child to be a lemming of her own. If you want her to only experience your religion, your beliefs, your thoughts, why not just make her a clone of you? She's an individual, and she has the right to see all sides of the matter, not just one side of the debate.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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I've been hiding in the shadows, following this topic as it has unfolded but I was so distrubed by Resistance's last post that I felt I had to cease my veneer of lurking neutrality and say something.

However, even though I tried and tried to write a suitable response, after about five attempts I realised that anything I wrote would be ultimately futile. I realised that if I actually stated my true opinion on this topic, I would explode into a rage of virulent bile and be promptly banned. I don't think I've ever been so upset about something that I felt I *couldn't* say anything about. This is a new one for me.

Jeremiah I applaud your patience and understanding and I concur with the sentiment of your posts. All I will say is this. Children are not mini-mes: they are independent of their parents, with their own thoughts, beliefs and opinions. Although we have a natural urge to protect our children and to guide them as we see best fit, we as parents have to slowly but surely let them loose into the wild to make their own decisions and live their own lives. We do not own our children as possessions (as say a dog - and even that is contentious) but at best we have them on loan until they can stand on their own two feet as adults.

Also, one should have compassion, understanding and empathy for one's fellow man. There is never any justification for fostering hate.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 04:21 PM
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Oh boy, as a high school student, I really have to comment on this.


Originally posted by resistance
Jeremiah -- Don't know what the schools are like in Australia. I'm an American and I think the schools here suck. Furthermore, it's just welfare. It's not the government's JOB to raise the kids or to educate them. Rather, it's the parents. Our Constitutional government here does not grant the government, federal or state, the right to raise the kids, to insist on any kind of worldview, ESPECIALLY one that is atheistic, with an enforced belief in evolution, abortion as a solution to problems, teaching that people are just animals and need to therefore be taught "Safe Sex," that homosexuality is just another kind of lifestyle that's no better or no worse than any other kind of lifestyle (and would you like some statistics to prove that is a huge LIE?) --


No, in any such way, do our schools force us to believe in evolution. THey present it to us as a scientefic theory, not a religon. My science teacher just told us that the topic would be interesting for us to study and that is all. Do you really expect religous ideas to be taught in a SCIENCE class? Maybe it is you people who cannot accept other ideas other than your own. Second of all, the schools actually discourage abortion- or at least mine does. They DO NOT encourage us to have sex either! Since rebellious people are going to do it anyway, they encourage those people to use contraceptives when doing it! Lastly, in no way do schools promote homosexuality! What they do promote though, is equal rights for everybody and tolerance, not that gibberish that you said of promoting it.


Originally posted by resistance
Mostly the schools are doing a poor job of teaching basic academics and a very good job of corrupting morals and ruining character of all the young people who are its victims. They teach groupthink and do it from K on up to 12th grade. Rather than individuals being responsible for their own work, they are taught to work and think in groups. They then do this instinctively throuhgout their lives -- waiting to see which direction the crowd is going and then running to keep up, no matter where it's going. This is in effect teaching people to ignore their consciences, to ignore the fact that they are human beings at all, but just to be compliant little slaves who are ready for the School of Lifelong Learning -- which is the actual title of planned career training that the federal government has given to their grand scheme.

Teaching basic academics... oh boy, here we go. So when is the last time you had to take four years of math classes, three years of history, three years in science, three years in foreign language, four years in english classes, four years of physical education and health, and of course, a few elective courses such as art. By the way, my generation is the best educated in history: www.mlive.com... al/index.ssf?/base/national-53/1128501541114062.xml&storylist=national
Our government expects a lot more out of my generation than yours. They think that because we are in the 21st century, we all of a sudden have to know everything. THat is why test scores seem low. FOr the ACT and SAT, EVERYBODY TAKES THE TESTS NOW A DAYS, not just the brilliant kids that want to go on to college!


Originally posted by resistance
As to your statements about "facilitating" discussions with kids on marijuana, if you ever did such a thing with my child I would be livid. Just livid. Unless you are willing to teach my child what I believe about pot -- which is that it's a dangerous and destructive drug and to stay away -- then you'd better keep your mouth shut and DO NOT INTERFERE. Otherwise, I consider that to be corrupting my child. Other parents may not mind you doing that to their child, but I certainly do. Anybody that tries to sit as an authority with my child and invite her to discuss with her peers the so-called "Pros and cons" of pot deserves to be FIRED.

So a person who teaches both sides of the OPINIONS deserves to be fired?


Originally posted by resistance
Same with engaging my child in discussions about "Safe Sex."

once again, schools DO NOT advocate having people have sex. How do I know? Because I am in high school and I know what goes on here! Like I said before, there will always be people having sex, even in the middle ages, people had sex before marriage. Schools just tell the people who do it to us condoms so no one gets pregnate and there will not be an abortion!


Originally posted by resistance
If you as a teacher are not willing to take a definite stand on what is right and what is wrong in the areas of drugs, sex, abortion, homosexuality, or any other matter then you just need to button your lip and you should not be teaching anything other than perhaps math or chemistry or grammar. Not literature, history or science. If you don't know what you believe yourself, you should not be teaching other people. And if what you believe is in contradiction to what the parents believe, then you are undermining their authority and corrupting the morals of minor children.

Wow, where did you get this idea of math teachers teaching literature? Lets get back to reality here. Anyway, I respect your opinions and you have a right to have them, just dont make generalizations of everybody here. The schools that you hear on the news and the sermons that you hear at church do not represent the vast majority of schools! If you have any questions about what it's like in high school today, just ask me here.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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Hmmmm, this is interesting to say the least. The discussion went back on tolerance, homosexuality, and teaching sex in school with some very heated reactions. Only Jeremiah25 said it would be interesting to discuss the broader aspect of things.

How well does my comment about the smaller infurating issues distracting us from the larger issues apply to this discussion? Do you feel this is intentional, unintentional, or some type of conditioning that took place in our past?

What does everyone think of the statements on the website I listed? Do you agree or disagree, and why?



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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to a very slim extent, I agree with you mystery lady. But not that education is brainwashing us, but that because we are born and raised in a TV world, we grow more responsive to top of the times heated politicial issues. Many children from the baby boom and up are exposed at an early age to television. It becomes something they grow up with. It also becomes something they trust. So when the news brings up a hot topic issue, and spins a slant on it, telling people how they should feel, they are more accustomed to feeling polarly for or against a hot button subject.

Responses on here just show that, on both sides, those that are raised in a TV world are more accustomed to this, and have grown to view topics more heatedly then before. But this isn't brainwashing, or implanting emotions in a persons mind, but it is simply something that inspires more political and social thought among people. It makes people more aggressive about subjects and topics.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 07:48 PM
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Jeremiah -- You are ignoring what I said. I agree that manners and civility are good things and I believe I practice it here, and I teach my child to be respectful and civil to others.

There is a big difference, as I said, between having good manners and civil treatment of others and liking or disliking, hating or loving their behavior.

If you like homosexuality, I think you're wrong. Just plain wrong. I hate it. Why? Because it's a wicked, evil sin. There is no debate about this. That's just the way it is. And if you as a teacher try to put the idea into a trusting, impressionable child that homosexuality is neutral or okay or good, then you are corrupting the morals of a minor.

There's no other way around it. That's a fact.

Same with abortion. You want to tell some pregnant teen that abortion might be an okay solution for her? Well, you are an accomplice to murder if you do that. You will answer to God for that.

You may not like what I say, but it's the truth. Schools should be places to teach truth -- not wishful thinking or to gloss over the truth or to reframe it to make it seem good. Scripture says, Woe unto those who call good evil and evil good.

If it says it in the Bible, I think anyone should sit up and take notice and listen. We're talking about the Book here, not some fly-by-night religious mumbo jumbo fakey book of fairy tales.

Mystery Lady -- I am going to call it the way I see it because I think that's the best way to communicate in most cases. Nobody's personal feelings are at stake here because nobody knows anybody, we're all pseudonyms here. We're discussing ideas, just ideas.

We're discussing this question: Is it right to pretend to people who are doing things that we hate and abhor that we actually approve of them and admire them? Is it right to teach this as a matter of course in K through 12 as the most important lesson to be learned in life is TOLERANCE?

My answer to this question is NO WAY .



[edit on 14-10-2005 by resistance]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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Resistance, heres the issue. You believe that everything in your religion is law, and its moral standings are what you hold yourself by. Thats fine, because thats you, your beliefs, and your right to practice your religion. But, what you want, is to impose your religion on others by having the schools teach following the laws of the bible. Imposing your religion on others, and forcing others to follow your moral value is not right. Theres a reason why its not right, because your religion, is not the only one. And it also isn't the only one with diverse and different moral views and opinions. Thats because 67% of the world doesn't believe in your religion, and have theyre own religious beliefs and moral views. To impose your beliefs onto them for the sake of forcing your morality around, well, we've seen wars and mass genocide go that way all throughout history for the same thing that your preaching about on this forum.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by resistance
Jeremiah -- You are ignoring what I said. I agree that manners and civility are good things and I believe I practice it here, and I teach my child to be respectful and civil to others.


Well then I feel I must point out that you are not practicing manners and civility at the moment. I was somewhat insulted by your last post. Not by your beliefs and ideas, but by the very direct way you insulted me personally. However, I am not going to dwell on this small matter and shall instead move on to examine your comments closer to the point of this thread.



There's no other way around it. That's a fact.


No, that's an opinion. Your opinion, specifically, and not one shared by everybody. I think perhaps you misunderstand what I am trying to say. As a teacher, I do not teach my students that homosexuality is right. I personally think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and I am happy to share my opinion with individual students who ask it. However, in the classroom, I will not say "Okay kids, homosexuality is fine and whatever your parents taught you to the contrary is wrong". What I will teach is that it is not okay to physically or emotionally injure or belittle someone because they are homosexual. It is not okay to beat somebody up because they are homosexual. Can you see the difference? This is, as you said, a fine line for teachers to walk. But promoting tolerance of homosexuals is not the same as promoting homosexuality itself. We're not trying to turn kids against their parents, we're just trying to stop violence against homosexual individuals. Can you appreciate this aspect of it?



Same with abortion. You want to tell some pregnant teen that abortion might be an okay solution for her? Well, you are an accomplice to murder if you do that. You will answer to God for that.


I will answer for many things indeed. I have no problem with doing so.



You may not like what I say, but it's the truth. Schools should be places to teach truth -- not wishful thinking or to gloss over the truth or to reframe it to make it seem good. Scripture says, Woe unto those who call good evil and evil good.


Again, what you say is an opinion, not hard truth. I have found that "the truth" is often extremely difficult to come by, especially in the subjects I teach. Take World War 2, for example. What is the truth of it? That Japan attacked the US unprovoked and drew it into the War? Or that the US was aggravating Japan in Asia and choking off their country with an embargo that forced their hand? You see, there are different ideas about what the truth is. Yours is merely one. What you think is evil, I think is fine. Is your opinion better than mine? No, it isn't. Even though yours is clearly based on your own personal interpretation of the Bible, I think my opinions are every bit as valid. And as teachers, we rely on our opinions to help mould what we teach.



If it says it in the Bible, I think anyone should sit up and take notice and listen. We're talking about the Book here, not some fly-by-night religious mumbo jumbo fakey book of fairy tales.


You are assuming that a majority of people hold the Bible to be literally true, which I do not think is the case. I personally think that certain portions of the Bible are becoming less applicable in people's lives, but again, this is my personal opinion. I cannot teach my students based on what the Bible says.



We're discussing this question: Is it right to pretend to people who are doing things that we hate and abhor that we actually approve of them and admire them?


Again, this is not what we are doing. My students are free to hate homosexuals if they wish. I would hope they wouldn't, but I'm not going to try to sway their beliefs. But I will tell them that they must tolerate homosexuals, in the sense that they must not be violent or deriding to them. Because, to me, that's not an okay thing to do. I think it's wrong. If this is brainwashing, then so be it. I am glad I am in a position to be able to do so.

[edit on 14/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by resistance
I want her to learn the point of view that I want her to have, and she's going to know what that point of view is in no uncertain terms.


I do hope you realize that parents are the biggest brainwashers of all. It is so easy to bring a child into the world and create the "perfect" person-built only on your beliefs. Perhaps parents don't undertsand this as well as they should. Do I want my child facing a life that is unrealistic because of my selfishness? With your narrow minded perspective, where exactly do you see your child in the grand scheme of things?


Originally posted by resistance
I don't want her equivocating about pot, or abortion, or homosexuality, or atheism. I will teach my child manners and how to be polite but believe you me she will not "respect" these wicked things.


I just don't think you understand. We don't want her to respect the "things"-we want her to respect that others may not have made "the right choice" (in your eyes), and to RESPECT the PERSON.


Originally posted by resistance
She will hate them because I have taught her to hate them.


This makes me sick. Just sick. Brainwashing? I TRIED to "respect" your opinions. But this dribble makes me certain that there are some sick individuals in the world. Hate kills. My kids don't even use that word when eating brussle sprouts.


Originally posted by resistance
Because I hate them myself and I am the parent, and I want to protect my child from this kind of evil stuff.


We all want to protect our children. It is instinctive. Why don't you want to try to save those you hate? When did Christians begin hating those who walk a darker path?


Originally posted by resistance
I want my child to be happy, to have a good life, and to have an eternity in Heaven. I DON'T WANT MY CHILD RESPECT EVIL.


Hating is evil. Do you realize that anymore? I wouldn't respect evil, either. But like I said before, one should always respect the PERSON.


]Originally posted by resistance
Mystery Lady -- I am going to call it the way I see it because I think that's the best way to communicate in most cases. Nobody's personal feelings are at stake here because nobody knows anybody, we're all pseudonyms here. We're discussing ideas, just ideas.


So your personal feelings aren't being posted here? Bull. Mine sure are. If I didn't honestly believe the things I was posting, then what the heck was the whole point? I'm not a pseudonym. I'm real.

Do you want a suprise? I would be pretty mad too if a teacher gave my child the pros AND cons about drug use. Oh, you bet that would make me mad. But mad enough to HATE the teacher? Never.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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Resistance toleration from what I understand it to be is not physically fighting or totally bashing someone because they believe differently than you do. If tolerance included having to accept the other persons beliefs I totally disagree with, approve of them, and/or admire them, then there will be a major fight. That is crossing the line of what I can accept. Different people have different lines drawn in the ground.

I take the Bible literally. Jesus never preached hate, but compassion even for those whom you would hate. How can you reach out to someone you hate? How can you help someone who has an ongoing struggle in their soul looking for help if you hate them? I have heard more ministries help homosexuals through compassion, but have never heard of even one being helped through hate. Remember God loves the sinner just as much as he loves you, and he rejoices greatly when they return home. I think it would be better to be the father the prodigal son returned home to rather than the brother working in the field who hated his brother because of the favor his father showered over his lost brother.

As for me I feel that hot topic issues should not even be discussed in K – 10. Possibly in 11 or 12 if a student brought the question in an appropriate class. Or a situation came up where that type of discussion was needed. In no way do I feel that the teacher should bring up the subject just because the teacher feels that the student needs to exposed to all view points. If the teacher feels that greatly about it, then he should get permission from all the parents before discussing the issue.

Why do they need to be exposed in the first place? There are some subjects that are so touchy and that no matter how you present the information you will bound to alienate parents whether one or most. Even to do so the teacher is making the children question their parent’s morals. Whether the parent is right or wrong is not for that teacher to decide. That is where I have some problems of what Jeremiah25 is saying that he feels he needs to expose the issues and the students need to make up their own mind. The question is, are the students really mature enough even in high school to handle these issues. As parents are we sure the teacher doesn’t have an ulterior motive in doing so. Some aren’t even mature enough in college. I found something that backs up the indoctrination going on in college. If I could, I would get it.

I’m going to post the links and some quotes if you or anyone else may be interested in this information. These do have a cost, but would give more insight for those of you who would want to take a more in-depth look into the subjects we have been discussing.

WHISTLEBLOWER MAGAZINE
BRAINWASHING 101

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"A crisis on campus" by Jim Nelson Black, a powerful overview of how America's colleges are corrupting the minds and morals of the next generation.

"Sex in the classroom" by Ben Shapiro – a mind-boggling first-hand account of sexual anarchy on the typical campus. As Shapiro summarizes: "Homosexuality is perfectly normal. Pedophilia is acceptable. Bestiality is fine."

"How Western culture has been turned upside down" by David Kupelian, showing what's really behind multiculturalism and political correctness, which started on the college campus and have now grown to permeate society at large.


Exposé of the year: 'The Marketing of Evil'
'How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised as Freedom'
worldnetdaily.com...




The Marketing of Evil" reveals how much of what Americans once almost universally abhorred has been packaged, perfumed, gift-wrapped and sold to them as though it had great value. Highly skilled marketers, playing on our deeply felt national values of fairness, generosity and tolerance, have persuaded us to embrace as enlightened and noble that which all previous generations since America's founding regarded as grossly self-destructive - in a word, evil.

Likewise, most of us mistakenly believe the "abortion rights" and "gay rights" movements were spontaneous, grassroots uprisings of neglected or persecuted minorities wanting to breathe free. Few people realize America was actually "sold" on abortion thanks to an audacious public relations campaign that relied on fantastic lies and fabrications. Or that the "gay rights" movement – which transformed America's former view of homosexuals as self-destructive human beings into their current status as victims and cultural heroes – faithfully followed an in-depth, phased plan laid out by professional Harvard-trained marketers.


[edit on 14-10-2005 by Mystery_Lady]



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 02:14 AM
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Mystery-Lady -- Very nice post. Wolf was wanting some specifics to back up the vague charges against the government schools, and you are providing those. I'm trying to do the same actually.

As to hate, I consider God's enemies to be my enemies. I hate what they do and I consider them to be my enemies. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Nowadays, the latest politically correct propaganda is to obliterate the word "hate" from the human vocabulary. If somebody says they hate liver and onions, that's not nice, shouldn't say "hate." It's ridiculous. Congress is in the process now of passing "hate speech laws" which will prevent pastors from condeming abortion and homosexuality from the pulpit, on the streets, and anyplace else where their speech can be proven by witnesses to be "hateful" in this manner.

Canada already has laws like this.

In Philadelphia recently 11 persons were arrested and charged for preaching at a homo event known as Outfest. They were carrying banners with Scripture and preaching the sodomites should repent. One person was a 16-year-old girl, also arrested and charged. These people did nothing wrong whatever, and the homos were taking their signs, pushing and shoving them, blocking them from view of anybody at the Outfest by putting up big pink boards. Everything was filmed and it was proved that any illegal behavior was done by the homos and not the Christians.

Which is more loving? To tell someone who is in a destructive lifestyle that you approve of them, or to tell them the truth? I say it takes a lot more love to go out and confront the homos on their self-destruction, warn them, and show them the way out, to risk the abuse, arrest, whatever. Who's the loving one -- those people willing to go out and try to rescue these people or the ones who stay home and say tsk tsk privately but in public act like what the homos are doing is just fine?

If we're not allowed to hate baby-murder (ie abortion) and homosexuality, where will it end? Are we allowed to hate the torture of prisoners in AbuGhraib? Are we allowed to hate the war in Iraq? Are we allowed to hate the destruction of the planet?

I just think it's nonsense that we have to "respect" people's opinions that are wrong, destructive and evil. And that children are being taught from kindergarden on up to "respect" everybody's opinion, no matter how wrong or how evil -- that is a travesty. No wonder the schools need to hire mental health counselors. That is sheer insanity in itself.

It's a Big Lie that "Everybody's right, Nobody's wrong, and let's all just get along." To drum this Big Lie into the minds of children is a travesty of the worst sort, and one reason why I believe God's going to allow our country to straight down the tubes, and quickly (i.e. any day now). NWO, here we come!



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by resistance
As to hate, I consider God's enemies to be my enemies. I hate what they do and I consider them to be my enemies. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Where EXACTLY did Jesus preach hate?
I was under the impression he said things like 'love thy neighbour as yourself" "Love the sinner hate the sin" "Judge not lest ye be judged" "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

You seem to have good stockpile of rocks to throw.. if your kids grow up hating gays and then bash one because of what you taught them.. don't blame other people when they get their arses thrown in jail for it.

[edit on 15-10-2005 by riley]



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 03:14 AM
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Riley -- Aren't you the one on the Creationism forum who argues for evolution, says the Hobbit people aren't even humans, just animals? Seems like you are the one full of hate -- towards God and man both, else you would be willing to ascribe to Him his due as Creator and you would not be so quick to label people as just an animal.

You have also twisted my words. To consider someone your enemy is not to hate them necessarily. People should be allowed to have whatever thoughts or emotions or to considerations they choose. Do we now have thought police to tell us what we are allowed to think and feel as well as what we can and can't say and do that might be construed by someone as "not nice."

True hate and true love are actions, not emotions. It's what you do that counts. Advocating for abortion rights means in my book that you hate unborn babies and would like to see more of them killed. Advocating for homosexuality means you hate the homosexuals because you want them to do things that will shorten their lives, make them miserable, and ultimately send them to Hell. Do unto others? If I were a homosexual or a woman contemplating abortion I would want someone to try to talk some sense into me and try to save me from myself.

It's obvious nowadays that almost everyone hates Christians.

Don't you think you're going just a bit past politically correct when you say that not only is it not okay to hate but we are also not to even consider anyone our enemy or God's enemy? Do you think it might be possible that you yourself may be a victim of too many years of indoctrination in a government school?





[edit on 15-10-2005 by resistance]



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 07:29 AM
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You did not answer my question. Where does Jesus preach hate? ..and wtf has my being on the origins and creation forum got to do with this discussion? I don't accept evolution as fact to spite mythology.. I accept it as fact because that is what it is.
I never 'twisted' your words- if you like I can quote what you've said but there'd be little point as it's quite clear you HATE certain minority groups.. it has nothing to do with your wanting to 'save' them either.. it's obvious all you feel for them is contempt. You can carry on about abortion all you want as well but the fact is the bible does not condemn abortion.. as proven by a story in it where a priest performs an abortion on a woman who's husband suspects of cheating. Homosexuality.. it's not actually a 'choice' it is an orientation and the bible doesn't make a huge point on it either. They are naturally attracted to the same sex and they cannot help it. This would mean of course that your god deliberatly created people designed to 'sin'.

Do you think it might be possible that you yourself may be a victim of too many years of indoctrination in a government school?

[Every village has one..]
Might be possible? I was sent to christian schools not government ones.



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by resistance
Riley -- Aren't you the one on the Creationism forum who argues for evolution, says the Hobbit people aren't even humans, just animals? Seems like you are the one full of hate -- towards God and man both, else you would be willing to ascribe to Him his due as Creator and you would not be so quick to label people as just an animal.

So people who believe in both evolution and creationisim (as me) are hateful towards God? Maybe some of us argue that God created this beautiful world over time and that "Seven Days" thing is all symbollic? SO what if he argues that the little people were animals. Are we not, today, the perfect human being? In fact we are animals ourselves. We just have the advanced brains.


Originally posted by resistance
True hate and true love are actions, not emotions. It's what you do that counts. Advocating for abortion rights means in my book that you hate unborn babies and would like to see more of them killed. Advocating for homosexuality means you hate the homosexuals because you want them to do things that will shorten their lives, make them miserable, and ultimately send them to Hell. Do unto others? If I were a homosexual or a woman contemplating abortion I would want someone to try to talk some sense into me and try to save me from myself.

People who are for abortion believe that it is not a child until they are born. It is THEIR opinions. People also believe that homosexuality is not wrong. It is THIER opinins. So the Bible said it. THe Bible is a 2000 year old document that has been re-writen so many times and manipulated so many times that even the Catholic church just recently said not to take it literally. Really, can homosexuals not love like according to you "normal people?" Are they any different from us besides the fact that many are born like that?


Originally posted by resistance
It's obvious nowadays that almost everyone hates Christians.

Not really but yes, many do. Stop, look, think, look at yourself and others and you will soon figure out why.




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