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brainwashing students

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posted on Oct, 1 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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In the California school system, you learn world history, then US history, and then US government.




posted on Oct, 1 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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I don't believe brainwashing is going on so much in history unless you count students being told all the negative things and how bad the white males were in taking what didn't belong to them. My problem is that practically every culture from ancient history to present history stole land through wars and took what didn't belong to them. Exactly how far back are we suppose to go to repay people what was stolen from them? In that context, we are just as bad as every other great civilization that was ever built, and it really becomes a moot point.

I believe that the brain washing comes more in the form of training our students to sit down, shut up, and do as your told. In some schools this happens during lunch, and at highschool levels this happens in study halls and during home room period. Sometimes I wonder if the students really have any time to socialize, or if most of their socializing actually happens after school. Now add the zero-tolerance where they get suspended for having a butter knife to cut a cake, suspended for having a pencil sharpener, and they only allow the long pointy thingy only because they need something to write with.

The other things I get concerned with are indoctrnation into things that are against that child's family values. This could range from the teachers getting the children to question their belief on God to the indoceration of homosexuality, chich can turn a child against their family. If the child questions the teacher on what and why they are doing someting, all hell breaks loose on the teacher's part. Any attempt to gather personal information by the school and/or teacher from the student that should be asked of the parent.

I do remember one time that my elementary class in a private Catholic school foiled attempts by the teacher to introduce ideas of euthenisa and those who are fit to be in society along with self centerdness. The only reason I remember this, is that I thought it was very strange at the time.

It was an execrise where the teacher pertended that we were on a boat. The boat could hold only so many people, and there was one too many of us. Then she gave us al characters such as an elderly single gentleman, young couple, the pregnant wife, the business man, the disabled person. After she was done assigning us characters, she stated that someone would not be allowed on the boat, or it would sink. Now which one has to be left behind, and why? Of course no one would want to be left behind, so she thought we would start giving answers like the elderly single gentleman since he has already lived his life. Or the disabled since he/she could not contribute to society as the others.

Being in a Catholic school we started giving suggestions about finding something that floats and tying it on behind the boat. We have faith in Jesus, and the boat will not sink. Then we started asking her why does anyone have to be left out, doesn't she have any faith? None of us were willing that anyone be left behind. She finally gave up.

To think those types of scenerios were given to other childern at other schools, and what type of answers the kids gave. Of course the parents will never know, and the child will more than likely not mention it to the parent, since the child more than likely will not think it that important to mention. Those types of scenerio's actually devalue certain groups of people, and give the mentally to the child the survival of the fittest. I must get on that boat or be ahead of the line. That those who are left to die, those lives are not worth anything.

Another thing that distrubed me is the mentality that the kids can get away with in schools and their rotten behaviour. My husband use to be a school bus driver, and he has seen this type of behaviour more than he would like to remember. He had kids bad mouthing, swearing, bullying, and even had kids throwing things out the windows including shoes. Of course he wasen't allowed to touch them, and only write them up. He even had threats made on him and me from some of the kids depending on which school he drove for. Of course the parents the parents don't do much, since they were taught never to spank or give real discipline to their children.

The school mentality is that correcting them is bad for their emotions, because it is assumed that all students have low self-esteem from being with their intollerant parents for too long. Extremely bad behaviour is given detention (time for a snooze) or expulsion (a holiday). Red ink is becoming taboo. The children are allowed to become uncontroable brats defying teachers and parents. Bullies are allowed to run rampid even if the teacher catches them red handed. Then you have all the special interest groups trying to get in and teach the kids their own agenda. Now add on the the fact that the schools think they should also be the children's parents, councilers, physchologists, and etc that the academics get shoved aside for other agendas.

It's no wonder that kids come out hardly being able to read, write, or are good at math since there is a group who wants to experiment on the kids a new way to learn that actually doesn't work. I'm homeschooling my daughter who is in 1st grade. She can read a 4th level reader from the library with hardly any problems. All I used was a strict phonics program. Phonic was used before they brought in any new ideas, it worked, and is time tested and proven to work. She is good at printing and math since I also use the old time tested drill and kill method some like to call it, and always making sure what she was previously taught is reviewed later on so she doesn't forget. The math cirruclum I have is set up to do just this. Some times the old ways are the best.

Actually all of my children like to homeschool. Sometimes they even ask if they can, or tell me they want to homeschool. How many children ever say hey mom I want to go to school?



posted on Oct, 1 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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You have voted Mystery_Lady for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Great Post!



posted on Oct, 1 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I believe that the brain washing comes more in the form of training our students to sit down, shut up, and do as your told. In some schools this happens during lunch, and at highschool levels this happens in study halls and during home room period. Sometimes I wonder if the students really have any time to socialize, or if most of their socializing actually happens after school.

well, that's right. Since when is school for socializing? It's all about the act of sitting down, shutting up, and doing as you're told. Did I miss something growing up?

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Now add the zero-tolerance where they get suspended for having a butter knife to cut a cake, suspended for having a pencil sharpener, and they only allow the long pointy thingy only because they need something to write with.

And it's a darn good thing they do, too! Get those metal detectors in those doors! If the crappy lazy parents aren't going to keep their kids in check, then the school has to to save the student from other students!

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
The other things I get concerned with are indoctrnation into things that are against that child's family values. This could range from the teachers getting the children to question their belief on God to the indoceration of homosexuality, chich can turn a child against their family. If the child questions the teacher on what and why they are doing someting, all hell breaks loose on the teacher's part. Any attempt to gather personal information by the school and/or teacher from the student that should be asked of the parent.

Personally, I do not remember ever being asked to question my own faith. And nowadays, with three gifted children in public schools, the poor kids don't even get a shot at learning about evolution.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
To think those types of scenerios were given to other childern at other schools, and what type of answers the kids gave. Of course the parents will never know, and the child will more than likely not mention it to the parent, since the child more than likely will not think it that important to mention. Those types of scenerio's actually devalue certain groups of people, and give the mentally to the child the survival of the fittest. I must get on that boat or be ahead of the line. That those who are left to die, those lives are not worth anything.

I simply see that as opening a child's mind to other possibilities and deciding on their own fate as opposed to other people's fates.


Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Another thing that distrubed me is the mentality that the kids can get away with in schools and their rotten behaviour. My husband use to be a school bus driver, and he has seen this type of behaviour more than he would like to remember. He had kids bad mouthing, swearing, bullying, and even had kids throwing things out the windows including shoes. Of course he wasen't allowed to touch them, and only write them up. He even had threats made on him and me from some of the kids depending on which school he drove for. Of course the parents the parents don't do much, since they were taught never to spank or give real discipline to their children.

That's correct. For a long time teachers have had thier hands tied with disciplining our children. I don't know what your point is here. Would you want the school bus driver "disciplining" your child? You even answered your own question by saying the parents don't discipline their own children.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
The school mentality is that correcting them is bad for their emotions, because it is assumed that all students have low self-esteem from being with their intollerant parents for too long. Extremely bad behaviour is given detention (time for a snooze) or expulsion (a holiday). Red ink is becoming taboo. The children are allowed to become uncontroable brats defying teachers and parents. Bullies are allowed to run rampid even if the teacher catches them red handed. Then you have all the special interest groups trying to get in and teach the kids their own agenda. Now add on the the fact that the schools think they should also be the children's parents, councilers, physchologists, and etc that the academics get shoved aside for other agendas.

Well, goodness! If they can't give out expulsions or detentions, then what SHOULD they do?

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
It's no wonder that kids come out hardly being able to read, write, or are good at math since there is a group who wants to experiment on the kids a new way to learn that actually doesn't work.

That's not the truth. My children are gifted and go to a crappy, low funded public school. I teach them to be their best and to strive above and beyond. It's MY responsibility too, not just the school's.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Actually all of my children like to homeschool. Sometimes they even ask if they can, or tell me they want to homeschool. How many children ever say hey mom I want to go to school?

Mine do.

And please, visit this site to see how your US school is doing:
US Schools

[edit on 1-10-2005 by Rouschkateer]



posted on Oct, 1 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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I teach Civics - have for almost 10 years now. Why teach US government? Well, part of the reason for free public education was to create an educated electorate.

I take my responsibility to teach government to my students as a vocation. I make sure that they learn the Constitution, the BIll of Rights, the Amendments, and the historical AND contemporary application of these documents. My students also learn to read the news, evaluate Point of View from multiple perspectives, and use their informed perspective to analyze the issue and reach a conclusion. Then I teach them to defend it.

I am a veteran. I love my country and have paid the price of patriotism in pain, blood, heartache, fear, sorrow, and loss. And I would do it all over again. I uphold anyone's right to express their discontent, their skepticism, or their objections. I draw the line, however, at those who apply unrealistic standards to the US. What other country in the world is as tolerant as we are? What other country in the world would NOT teach their history, their form of government first?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by Rouschkateer
well, that's right. Since when is school for socializing? It's all about the act of sitting down, shutting up, and doing as you're told. Did I miss something growing up?


You must have, since that has become the main arguement of why parents should not homeschool their children. Anti-homeschoolers always ask how can your children socialize properly if they are not in school.


Originally posted by Rouschkateer
And it's a darn good thing they do, too! Get those metal detectors in those doors! If the crappy lazy parents aren't going to keep their kids in check, then the school has to to save the student from other students!


Why is it good to treat our kids like common criminals and over a set of keys they may be carrying or even a tiny blade in an encased hand held pencil sharpner, that many of us use to carry when we went to school. These kids are getting suspended and expulsion for carrying non-weapon items. The zero tolerance is not to make sure the school is safe from harmul weapons such as guns and sharp knives that can actually do harm. The point is to indocternate our kids to be obedient through fear, so when the government does decide to over run our country, our kids will already be programed. It can happen here in the US like it did in Germany not too long ago, and as it happened in other times such as in Rome. The Republic in Rome was over run and taken over to form an empire with an emperor. History does and can repeat itself. The easiest way for the government to take over a country is to gain control of our kids and instill in them patterns that they will adhere to later on in life as well event hough they may thought they all that was behind them as an adult.



Originally posted by Rouschkateer
Personally, I do not remember ever being asked to question my own faith. And nowadays, with three gifted children in public schools, the poor kids don't even get a shot at learning about evolution.


Ok the faith may be more on a college level. I have heard others say that it is beginning in the highschool level. I do know once you step into college every thing you believed is automatically attacked, unless you already believed in all the politically correct things to begin with, including abortion is a woman's right to choose, strict evolution, woman lib's insert your own word, and etc. Here I thought I was attending a Catholic College where I would be around others with the same belief in God and not get tested as such.

In highschool it is a more making them question what your parents taught you. In some cases they actually turn the kids away from their parents. The teachers ask personal private questions they shouldn't be asking. I have read a few people say that is why they took their kids out of school to homeschool even in the early elementary years. It is the teacher's job to teach, and not direct the morals and values of the kids. People don't send their kids to school to learn humanistic values and moral realitivism while having to exclude all refrences and talk about God. No, people send their kids to school to learn to read and write. To be able to do math well, and learn about the sciences and history.


Originally posted by Rouschkateer
I simply see that as opening a child's mind to other possibilities and deciding on their own fate as opposed to other people's fates.


Opening the child's mind to what? No other background information is given about the person the child is role playing except their gender, color of their skin, and employment status. You have say 9 kids sitting in a circle, and they have to decide who gets thrown overboard. Oh, lets throw over the black guy, because of his skin color. No lets throw over the elderly guy, since he already contributed to society and is going to die soon anyhow. No, you can't throw over the single CEO of such and such company, since his a high contributor to society. No, you can't throw over the pregnant lady, since she is about to have a child. Wait, lets throw over her husband, since she doesn't need him to take care of a child. He has a low paying job anyhow and isn't really contributing to society. Wait, lets throw over the disabled person, since she really can't contribute to society. You actually approve of this?

What educational value does this have, except teaching a child to look at everyone in a type of class system, and that you are only worthy to live based on your skin color and what you actually contribute to society. It devalues life, and it devalues people.


Originally posted by Rouschkateer
That's correct. For a long time teachers have had thier hands tied with disciplining our children. I don't know what your point is here. Would you want the school bus driver "disciplining" your child? You even answered your own question by saying the parents don't discipline their own children.


The parents don't discipline, because over half of them are afraid to discipline them especially out in public. They don't want others calling social services on them for a well deserved smack in the butt. People had it right in the older days, and as in an Andy Griffit show Andy told a father of a highly unruley child the woodsheld is right around the back. I don't believe in abuse, but when a spanking is called for a parent should not be afraid to doll out the correct disciplinary action for the child's behavior. No time out's don't always work, and are more in-effective than effective.

As far as a school bus driver discliping my kid, yes they should have that right along with the teachers. I rather have my kid dicplined than have them throw something out of the window that could very well cause a car accident. A child needs disclipned more than just a pink slip when another child physically hurts another child. The driver should be able to physically stop any child from hurting another person including the driver themselves if necessary.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.


Originally posted by Rouschkateer
Well, goodness! If they can't give out expulsions or detentions, then what SHOULD they do?


At the very least make them do the janator's job during detention instead if sitting them down in a chair letting them twiddle their thumbs in bordom. I'm sorry, but bordom is not a punishment, nor will it correct any behaviour. Make them come to school during the weekend to do physcial work, or take them someplace where they can do work such as pick up garbage, paint benches, and etc. On top of that, they would have to hand in on Monday a neatly typed long report of some type, or they will be back out there the next weekend. Let them feel the time crunch. In the old days, a good spanking usually worked well.


Originally posted by Rouschkateer
That's not the truth. My children are gifted and go to a crappy, low funded public school. I teach them to be their best and to strive above and beyond. It's MY responsibility too, not just the school's.


Unfortunatly most schools are crappy whether they are well funded or not. Since your children are gifted, are you sure they are actually getting a good education, and not being held back by the slower students in the class? You do know that the teacher teaches according to the slower students and their needs, since they can't be left behind. Unless they are in the gifted class, that means they could be learning alot more than they are.

Teaching them values to be the best and to strive for the best is your responsibility and not the school's. It is the school's responsibility to teach the knowledge. People wanted a seperation between church and state, then they also seperated morals and values from knowledge. Morals and values come from a person's belief whether it is a belief in God, belief in many gods, belief in New Age mysticisms, Pagan belief structure, atheist. moral realitivism, or humanisim.

I do not want moral realitivism to be taught to my kids. I don't want them making decisions based on the situation at hand. I want them to be basing their decisions on the absolute truth of the Bible. In this way the schools can get into trouble teaching any types of morals and/or values, and why they should be focused on academics only.

I don't want the state raising my kids.

[edit on 4-10-2005 by Mystery_Lady]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by Mystery_Lady

The easiest way for the government to take over a country is to gain control of our kids and instill in them patterns that they will adhere to later on in life as well even though they may thought they all that was behind them as an adult.


And yet, I specifically teach my students to question the decisions and policies of their government. I am encouraged to do so not only by other teachers, but also by my deputy principal, my principal and by the state syllabus. Surely if we were attempting to make a generation of obedient robots, we would teach them to conform to the will of their government and acept that the decisions which governments make are always for the good of their citizens. Why then am I spending my time getting students to question why governments make the decisions they do and come up with alternatives? Why do I get them to research and compare different styles of government and decide for themselves which they think is best? I am hardly alone in this - the overwhelming majority of teachers I know do exactly the same thing. Again, teachers are not the State. We are given advice and guidelines, but in the end it comes down to you and the kids.



Ok the faith may be more on a college level. I have heard others say that it is beginning in the highschool level. I do know once you step into college every thing you believed is automatically attacked


Well, I cannot speak for America, but here in Australia it is exactly the opposite. Religion barely comes into play in state schools here - those students who are religious are free to practice their beliefs and there are dedicated chaplains in schools to look after students spiritual needs. Once you get to college in Australia, nobody cares what your beliefs are. People here don't really care about your religion or your personal or political beliefs. They might be good for a discussion every now and then, but they are your own beliefs and you are entitled to them and nobody really cares to say otherwise.



The teachers ask personal private questions they shouldn't be asking.


Care to give an example? The only time I have asked students personal questions is if something is clearly upsetting them or if we are discussing an issue and then I will invite students to offer their opinions.



It is the teacher's job to teach, and not direct the morals and values of the kids. People don't send their kids to school to learn humanistic values and moral realitivism while having to exclude all refrences and talk about God. No, people send their kids to school to learn to read and write. To be able to do math well, and learn about the sciences and history.


I disagree. There are some issues in which morals and ethics must be raised to a certain extent if the subject matter is to be given proper treatment. Take the bombing of Hiroshima, for example, or the Holocaust. How can you discuss these issues without making the students aware of the ethical and moral implications raised by such issues? After all, the reason we teach kids about these things is to learn from them and hopefully prevent them from happening again. How do I teach about legal issues such as the death penalty without discussing morals? Sure, I could just lay the facts on the table and tell the kids to accept them, but this would lead to exactly the kind of blind acceptance that you say you wish to avoid. This becomes impossible when you divorce the issues from morals and ethics. Furthermore, I have spoken to many parents who feel we should be doing more to teach kids about morals and ethics. I realsie too that America may be different, but here in Australia we are free to discuss God in the classroom. Once again, who cares? If one student's beliefs are different to another student's beliefs, then lets discuss that! In this way, students become aware of opinions and beliefs other than their own in an environment where such views are tolerated and promoted as equally valid. We are not teaching that one belief is more valid than other. Rather, we are teaching that different people have different beliefs and that to persecute somebody based on this is ethically and morally wrong, which it is.



The parents don't discipline, because over half of them are afraid to discipline them especially out in public. They don't want others calling social services on them for a well deserved smack in the butt. People had it right in the older days, and as in an Andy Griffit show Andy told a father of a highly unruley child the woodsheld is right around the back. I don't believe in abuse, but when a spanking is called for a parent should not be afraid to doll out the correct disciplinary action for the child's behavior. No time out's don't always work, and are more in-effective than effective.


I couldn't agree more.




At the very least make them do the janator's job during detention instead if sitting them down in a chair letting them twiddle their thumbs in bordom. I'm sorry, but bordom is not a punishment, nor will it correct any behaviour.


Once again, I agree with you. This is exactly what I make students do for detention. They stay behind after school the following day and assist the groundskeeper with maintenance and gardening. Might as well make them useful.




You do know that the teacher teaches according to the slower students and their needs, since they can't be left behind.


Although this can certainly be the case, it is not always true. I know many great teachers who schedule after-class tutorials with students who are lagging behind, as well as advanced tutorials and extra work for students who are ahead. It can be tough, though, and it is good to see more classes for "gifted" students being developed and promoted.



Teaching them values to be the best and to strive for the best is your responsibility and not the school's.


Okay, except parents aren't doing it. I hate to say it, but in many cases parents simply do not teach their children about issues such as ethics and morals. When I have asked parents about this, they tell me that they thought kids learned those things in school, or they don't have time. Teachers often spend more time with kids than their parents do. In a lot of cases, if we don't teach them these things, they simply will not learn them at all.



In this way the schools can get into trouble teaching any types of morals and/or values, and why they should be focused on academics only.


I have already raised this point, but again I argue that simply teaching kids basic academics is flat out impossible. Many subjects cannot be properly discussed without discussing morals and values and to attempt to do so would lead to a generation of kids who blindly accept everything they are told without question, which is not what I think you want.



I don't want the state raising my kids.


And we don't want to have to do it, but the fact remains that in a lot of cases, parents just aren't pulling their weight in this department, in my opinion as a teacher. They expect teachers to teach their kids about issues which used to be the sole domain of the parent. They cannot then become angry when we do so.



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by Jeremiah25

And yet, I specifically teach my students to question the decisions and policies of their government.


As you said, you are in Australia. Even when I went to highschool, I was never taught to question the government, and neither was I ever taught do not question the government. That really hasen't seemed to change when I talk to others. I remember in highschool, it was moving quickly from one fact to another fact, and trying to keep everything straight with very little room for those types of questions. It isn't questioning of the government that I'm concerned about, it is any comment made to get the child to question what the child's parents have told the child.

Religion barely comes into play in state schools here - those students who are religious are free to practice their beliefs and there are dedicated chaplains in schools to look after students spiritual needs.

Here in America no one can practice religion in either elementary school or highschool. Students get into trouble just for mentioning God, let alone have any religious reading material.



Care to give an example?


I remember one example from the about homeschooling forum. The lady withdrew her child from the 1st grade since she was having some major difficulties with the teacher. She un-announced arrived to pick up her child's things. In the things, she found a folder she never saw before. In it she found some papers the teacher was having the child answer. They were very personal and private questions the teacher was asking the child.




There are some issues in which morals and ethics must be raised to a certain extent if the subject matter is to be given proper treatment.

You are right, but we are talking about a pollitically correct Godless environment that is created as not to offend anyone. The govenment passed the law of seperation of church and state. Morals and values are always subject to what one believes. For example one who believes in no God and moral realitivism would say it is ok to steal if one is hungry. One who believes in God and absoulte truth would say it is not ok to steal no matter what the cirmustances are. How is the teacher suppose deal with these issues. Either way the teacher would be teaching one of the children oppsite of what their family taught the child, and could create conflict within that family if the child decides to start questioning everything the parents tell them. I'm talking more elementary especially early elementary where the morals and values are really being shaped in a child's mind.

I could see a good debate of was it right or wrong to bomb Hiroshima in highschool as long as the kids have a solid background of what happened and why. Unfortunatly many highschool kids in the US don't. That is another reason why I believe the facts need to be focused on.




Okay, except parents aren't doing it. I hate to say it, but in many cases parents simply do not teach their children about issues such as ethics and morals.



If you were in the US, I would say they were the products of the public school system. Maybe they still are. They went to public school, and were taught what they needed to know. Now they have kids of their own, they now remember that the public school is their babysitter that will teach their child every thing the child needs to know. Don't worry about teaching them anything, the schools will do it for them. They became dependant on the government and school system to do all the teaching for them, and their children will even be more dependant. Unless they have a child like me, who actually breaks away from the dependancy and does it the old fashioned way before they had schools and homeschools.




They expect teachers to teach their kids about issues which used to be the sole domain of the parent.


I bet you it will get worse. The schools have become the babysitters. Then they took over education on sex ed, teaching morals and values, correcting behavioural problems the parents are too scared or just don't want to deal with, and drivers ed. I hate to think what is going to be next. Maybe how to take care of a baby, how to take care of a child, how to have a healthy relationship, how to be a good husband or wife, and etc. Some home ec classes have already started to dip into that stuff.




They expect teachers to teach their kids about issues which used to be the sole domain of the parent. They cannot then become angry when we do so.


Am I allowed to become angry, since I'm not putting my kids in the system?



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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Well, you raise some excellent points and it is clear that differences exist between our two systems of schooling which I fear are somewhat detrimental to American students, based on what you have said. Just to respond to one or two things you said:


Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I remember in highschool, it was moving quickly from one fact to another fact, and trying to keep everything straight with very little room for those types of questions.


Australian schooling used to be exactly the same. Greater emphasis was placed on retention of facts - names, dates and meaningless trivia. My mother always said that the only thing she ever remembered from school was the date for the Battle of Hastings.


In recent years, a change has been underway to place more of an emphasis on thematic schooling. That is, it is now perceived to be more important to teach students about the basic themes behind issues, rather than requiring them to rote memorise a list of facts. To illustrate: when I teach my students about World War II, I do not place a great emphasis on making them remember specific dates. To me, it is more important that they recognise why the War was fought, what the major events were and what significance they had and how the War ended. My reasoning is that they can always look the dates up on the Net or in a book, but if they understand the principles behind the subject, they are better able to remember and make sense of it. The new style of learning has been around in Australia only for a few years. Perhaps it will catch on in America as well, given time.



It isn't questioning of the government that I'm concerned about, it is any comment made to get the child to question what the child's parents have told the child.


Fair enough. I often have students question things I say by pointing out that their parents have taught them something different. For example, I was teaching students about the evolution of humans from primitive hominids. I could tell that one boy was very uncomfortable so, after I had got the class working on a task, I asked him what the problem was. He told me that his parents taught him that the Creation from Genesis was the true origin of human life. That's great, I told him, it was good to have different views on things. I then asked him to sit down with his parents and write a report on the differences between Creationism and Evolution, as well as supporting arguments for both theories. There is no way any good teacher would ever try to make their students accept a belief that runs counter to what their parents have told them. We might present such beliefs, but I try to go out of my way to ensure my students realise that they do not have to accept it.



Here in America no one can practice religion in either elementary school or highschool. Students get into trouble just for mentioning God, let alone have any religious reading material.


Here we clearly see institutional differences between our countries. In my classes, I have students who are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and Wiccan and I have seen all of them, at one stage or another, practising their beliefs in an area of the chaplaincy set aside for just this purpose. Denying children this right seems very strange to me. Aren't we supposed to encourage their growth as people?



In it she found some papers the teacher was having the child answer. They were very personal and private questions the teacher was asking the child.


Well, there is no way I would ever ask a student to answer highly personal questions in this way. The only person who might conceivably do such a thing is a guidance counsellor, but then only if the student went to them or, as often happens, a friend expresses concern over a fellow student.



For example one who believes in no God and moral realitivism would say it is ok to steal if one is hungry. One who believes in God and absoulte truth would say it is not ok to steal no matter what the cirmustances are. How is the teacher suppose deal with these issues. Either way the teacher would be teaching one of the children oppsite of what their family taught the child, and could create conflict within that family if the child decides to start questioning everything the parents tell them.


I would teach both points of view and ask the students which one they thought was right personally. Then, I would get them to debate each other on which point of view was better, only I would make them take the opposite side to the one in which they believed. In this way, you present and make the students fully aware of both sides of the argument whilst acknowledging that what they have been taught is equally valid.

But you're right, this may cause some students to question what their parents have taught them. But surely it is better for parents to sit their child down and say "Yes, that is what some other people believe and those are the reasons why, but here is what we believe and why we think it is correct" than it is for parents to try and shield their children from every point of view that runs counter to their own. If children are shielded in this manner, then when they leave home and are confronted with a range of ideas outside those which they had been raised with, they may turn to resent their parents. But if parents can acknowledge both points of view, whilst letting their child know why they accept one over the other, the child's strength in that belief will be that much stronger.



Don't worry about teaching them anything, the schools will do it for them. They became dependant on the government and school system to do all the teaching for them, and their children will even be more dependant.


I agree.
Of course, it needs to be pointed out that not all parents are so apathetic and many take a full and active interest in their children's education.



the parents are too scared or just don't want to deal with, and drivers ed. I hate to think what is going to be next. Maybe how to take care of a baby, how to take care of a child, how to have a healthy relationship, how to be a good husband or wife, and etc. Some home ec classes have already started to dip into that stuff.


Schools in America teach Driver's Ed? Wow. What masochist would let themselves get roped into that?
As for the other stuff, we already teach that here in Australia, although not to any great extent. We don't really touch on "how to be a good husband/wife", but we do teach things like how to care for a baby (only practical stuff like how to feed them, change nappies, etc) and what makes a good relationship and you're right - it's because the parents simply do not want to do it themselves, for the most part. I'd just as soon leave these things up to parents but, sadly, girls are having babies with no support from their families and need to know how to take care of them.



Am I allowed to become angry, since I'm not putting my kids in the system?



Sure, why not?
I've had plenty of parents get angry at me, for everything from being a conservative, tree-hugging hippy to being a racist white supremacist.
Fight the power ... which ... would be me.


[edit on 5/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:03 AM
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Ok, Mystery_Lady, we get the point. YOU home-school. That's great. I realy admire people that can take the time to do that. So while I don't bash you for having the time, energy, finances and emotional holdout to do so, I would expect the same sort of courtesy.

I took it rather personally when you said my children, although gifted, are being graded based on the rest of the slower students. Well, forgive me for making two obvious corrections. First: No kidding. How is it that A's are handed out if there aren't going to be any F's? Of course my children are graded based off of the slower students. Which is why they get the better grades. Second, I didn't clear up where my children are placed, so I will outline it to make it clearer for future "debate".

Child 1: She is 10 years old, and is in regular classes. She is "gifted" (which is what? merely a label nowadays, really), and volunteers to clean up the classroom after classes. She wasn't placed with gifted students because she missed the cutoff level. Oh well. She didn't emotionally crumble, she just made up for it in different ways. She is part of a commitee that work with the local government to make the school better based on the choices kids make. She is a "Conflict Manager" (by choice) which means every day she is "trained" on how to councel children with bullying problems or other conflict issues. The children that come to her also do that by choice. Now, let me reiterate: SHE IS 10. I never had that sort of opportunity when I was her age (1985).

Child 2: She is 9, and by far my most talented child. She tested out of "regular" school, and is now in a segregated (
) class for children just like her. Which means, she is still graded based off of slower students, and they are in her same skill range. She is an avid horse lover, and volunteers at a stable to help clean stalls and groom horses. She is a rambuncious, energetic little thing (I considered her ADHD! But I didn't put her on meds-well, that's for another thread).

Child 3: She is a wonderful 7 year old. A true spoiled brat (which is all me, I know-and I thought impossible to do with 2 other children), she is now in the process of testing out for gifted classes also. So while she may be "held up" to some extent by "slower kids" (hey, by the way, weren't we all held up by a slower kid at one point or another?), she goes after school for advanced "Think Tank" classes to prepare her for gifted learning. She does not volunteer for anything, but is a gymnast.

I think that you are being too generalized and hated towards public education, and perhaps, in your mind, rightfully so. Maybe you had an awful experience in school, and lived through it with some close friends. But I hate to say it, public school's are America's way to go, especially if one can't afford private (no thank you!) or homeschooling. It is my choice, and I realize both the good and the bad effects it MAY have on my children.

But I am an avid believer in the parent working WITH the school to make the best child that there could be. One who is tolerant, respectful, knowledgable, and who questions everything. Not every parent is willing to, wants to, or does do that. And I have to fight with those children to make mine better than the norm.

Homeschooling may be the best for you and your kids. I won't question your choice. Believe me, there are many things I have heard about homeschoolers that make me quite leery of ever doing it myself (not that I could, anyway). Just please realize, that while your beliefs about the public school system may be valid to a certain extent, I think you have blown things waaaay out of proportion. One final point: the homework and schooling that children have to do in this day and age is far more advanced that what I learned at that grade level. They are pushing harder and faster that ever. And I stand behind them 100%.



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Rouschkateer
But I am an avid believer in the parent working WITH the school to make the best child that there could be. One who is tolerant, respectful, knowledgable, and who questions everything. Not every parent is willing to, wants to, or does do that. And I have to fight with those children to make mine better than the norm.

Hear hear! I have taught at a lot of public schools and, in my experience, the best public schools are those which enjoy strong support from their local communities. Far from moving away from public schooling, people need to recognise that its potential is equal to that of private schooling and contribute effort to improving their local public schools. The level of community and parental support a school receives impacts upon a number of significant factors, not the least of which is school funding. In Australia, there is a huge debate as it has been revealed that private schools receive more State funding than public schools do in many cases. This is just wrong, in my opinion.


One final point: the homework and schooling that children have to do in this day and age is far more advanced that what I learned at that grade level. They are pushing harder and faster that ever. And I stand behind them 100%.


Good for you! I am constantly awed by the things my students prove themselves capable of when given the right opportunities. I finished school less than 10 years ago and some of the things they are doing are simply unbelievable and really serve to instill a sense of hope for the future.

[edit on 5/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Jeremiah25
That is, it is now perceived to be more important to teach students about the basic themes behind issues, rather than requiring them to rote memorise a list of facts. To illustrate: when I teach my students about World War II, I do not place a great emphasis on making them remember specific dates. To me, it is more important that they recognise why the War was fought, what the major events were and what significance they had and how the War ended. My reasoning is that they can always look the dates up on the Net or in a book, but if they understand the principles behind the subject, they are better able to remember and make sense of it. The new style of learning has been around in Australia only for a few years. Perhaps it will catch on in America as well, given time.


Actually that is how I plan on teaching history, especially in the highschool years. That is if I choose to homeschool that long. Too many people do not know the how and why of history. That is probablly the most interesting aspect of history. Take WWI for example, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who knows how and why it stated. Unfortunatly you would still be hard pressed to find anyone who actually knows why it was fought, and who the major players were and who was on wich side. Another problem with facts pertaining to names and dates is that many people have is that they only remember the dates as far as the next test. Then after all the tests are taken, they dump the information.

I guess I needed to identify what I meant when I said facts. I meant more of the how and why things happens, how history interacts with itself, different ways history repeats itself, how and why different types and forms of government get created. I recently found out that the constitution of the US was created by a through research of all the different forms of government from ancient Rome to what was then present day. That leads into the question of why the founders choose what they did. It is things like that, that make history interesting. I do wish American schools would take on more of this approach. Unfortunatly many teachers hands are tied behind their backs, and they themselves not throughly understand all the interworkings of history to be able to bring it out with in the constraints they have to work in.


That's great, I told him, it was good to have different views on things. I then asked him to sit down with his parents and write a report on the differences between Creationism and Evolution, as well as supporting arguments for both theories. There is no way any good teacher would ever try to make their students accept a belief that runs counter to what their parents have told them. We might present such beliefs, but I try to go out of my way to ensure my students realise that they do not have to accept it.


One of the problems is that here is that since God is not allowed in schools, neither is creationism. There is a battle going on in the courts currently on whether or not to allow intelligent design to be taught in the schools. Personally I would object to that in the elementary and junior highschool years. The student does not need that type of conflicting informatin especially in their early years when they are really just developing. The student needs to be mature enough to be able to handle those types of debates.


Aren't we supposed to encourage their growth as people?


The mantra here in the schools is don't offend anyone, but yet we are suppose to "tolerate" everyone. Eventhough there are still groups that are not tolerated such as Christians. This has gone so far as to have English teachers telling students not to write he or she when a specific gender is not defined to begin with. I still notice that in my writing, and it irritates me sometimes. For example:

The child left his notebook in the class room.

In that sentence since the child did not have a gender, it use to be that he would automatically be used. Now that offends some feminists. The potically correct way to write this sentence is

The child left his/her notebook in the class room. or
The child left the notebook in the class room. or
The children left their notebooks in the class room.



But surely it is better for parents to sit their child down and say "Yes, that is what some other people believe and those are the reasons why, but here is what we believe and why we think it is correct" than it is for parents to try and shield their children from every point of view that runs counter to their own.


Here we run into differences. I see the parents role to be able to sheild the child from things that run counter to family values and morals, especially in the earlier years. The child doesn't need to be confused when they are developing their ideas of what is right and wrong. Otherwise you may end up with a child who doesn't really know what right and wrong is. Besides which this can be a major figiting point for some parents. I believe other ideas and pholophicies should be held back until the child is mature enough to hopefully think logically about what they are presented with. This is usually around the junior and senior highschool years. Of course then again, there are still those students who are very immature. You are right that they need to be shown these other ideas especially before going to college. Otherwise they run the risk of everything they ever thought as right crumbling down around them.

As you should be able to see right now, I'm making a distinction between elementary school years and highschool years. It sounds like you teach highschool, so I can see why you encourage some of these debates. Parents will always worry that the teacher will step out of bounds. Many teachers do in the US whether they think they are or not.



Schools in America teach Driver's Ed? Wow. What masochist would let themselves get roped into that?


The ones who need the extra money. For everything the teachers have to put up with, they don't get paid enough.



I've had plenty of parents get angry at me, for everything from being a conservative, tree-hugging hippy to being a racist white supremacist.
Fight the power ... which ... would be me.



I'm pretty sure you don't get paid enough with everything you have to put up with either. I would be suprised if you never wanted to throw in the towel sometimes wanting a higher paid job with less stress. It can be a very thankless job at times.



[edit on 5-10-2005 by Mystery_Lady]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 12:21 PM
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Rouschkateer

I never said they would be graded by the slowest student. What I was saying is that they will not move on to the next subject until the slowest student gets the subject they are currently working on. Then the children will be graded based on their knowledge.

Haven't you ever been in a class where the teacher has to wait for the last student to finish the inclass assignment? Or when a teacher has to review material two or three times because a handful of students don't get it?

I'm sure your child got it the first time, so her time is wasted by all the reviews. I realize teachers have to make sure to accomidate all students, but it short changes the rest of them.

I'm glad to hear one tested into the gifted class, and the one is currently being tested.

You're right that I'm very leery of the public schools, just as your leery of homeschooling. Another thing I have to deal with around here is the other kids behaviours and attitudes. As my husband's co-worker stated, your kids behaviour would be ten times worse after getting home. I would have alot of deprograming to do with them.

According to detailed research done in the book "Why Johnny Can't read" education was much better back in the late 40's and early 50's. A colledge education today basically equals a highschool education back then. There are more and more students who have to take highschool classes in college just to get the students caught up. Some colleges have students take summer courses to get the caught up before entering the college. This was true when I went to college, and hasen't really gotten any better. Not to mention all of the indoctoarniation classes I had to go through in college to be "tolerant" of others especially homosexuals. The only people who did not get the toleration treatmeant were Christians. They were attacked left and right for what they thought and believed.

If I seem confrontational, you can thank my teachers and peers for that.

[edit on 5-10-2005 by Mystery_Lady]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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Time is an amazing thing. It allows for things to evolve. People, places, emotions, ideas, technologies...nothng is immune to it.
Based off of that, it is amazing how slow people are to adapt to the fact that things must change once in a while. You spout how Christians are getting the short end of the stick, and how everything is politically correct. A sentence in class is no longer "Please allow him to join...", rather it has to be "Please allow him/her to join..." Why is that such a big deal?

My children now have off of school on October 13th. I had to look that up. Rosh Hashanna? When the heck did schools give holidays for theose of Jewish faith? After my initial shock, I realized that it is only fair. In Allentown, PA, children are NOT allowed to celebrate Halloween during school hours. Why? It is viewed as a Wiccan holiday, one of evil, and is not tolerated by Christians. Christian moral standards and "rules" actually have quite a damn bit of pull in the American school system. Prayer may not be allowed, but we still pledge "under God", don't we?

Changing a few words in a sentence, or giving up a holiday or two is petty compared to some of the more critical changes going on. Violence in the streets (and admittedly in the school-which is why I lobby for more security and harsher "punishments". I agree 100% for active detentions.), lack of respect, degradation of moral standards...it all part of time and change.

This isn't the 40's and 50's anymore. I'm sorry to have to bring that to your attention. And, as harsh as this may seem, if you are homeschooling based off of the notions of an era long gone, you may be doing your own children a great injustice.



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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I never said this was the 40's or 50's, I said the children in the 40's and 50's recieved a better education than the children today even with the no child left behind act. A college education today is more equvilant to a highschool education back then. The No Child Left Behind act is so new that it really hasen't had time to greatly improve the quality of education in our current schools, and it will be awhile before we really know how it affected the education of the kids.

The sentence structure was a comment made about the training that goes on in the schools. Even after years, that training still has stuck with me. That is only sentence structure. If that little bit of training has kept coming to the forfront, then think of all the other training the schools have done with the kids to obey teachers and authority with no quesitons asked. When something does happen in the US where a military take over is called for, then we are already trained to obey. That training will surface just as remembering how to ride a bike comes back to you automatically even after you haven't ridden one for years. You have already been conditioned as well as I have been, and your children are along with millions of others are being conditioned in the schools today.

Change is not necessairly good as we have seen in the past few years. No, I'm not doing my children any injustice. I'm making sure they are able to learn in a safe envornment without the dangers and distractions in the public schools. You already realize that they are dangerous, since you are lobbying for more security.

Remember my comments about Christian beliefs being attacked were based on the college level and not the highschool level. It was also a personal experience at what I thought was a catholic college, but was really a left wing feminist liberal college. Really anyone with views of family over career, pro-life, homosexuality is immoral, creationism, absolute truth, and etc is bound to take a pounding. If you admit you are a Christian they throw scripture back in your face of course taken out of context and twisted. I have read that colleges tend to lean more towards the left than the right in the overall thinking and pholosphy.



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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I also homeschool. I don't want my child taught Safe Sex, that homosexuality is just a fine way to live, and that Christians are to blame for everything. I don't want my child taught atheism -- basically taught to love everything I hate and to hate everyhthing I love. I don't want my child to be taught that there's no right and wrong, that everybody's right, that the important lesson we must all learn is to just respect everybody else's opinions. What nonsense!

This is not fair to force Christians to subsidize atheist government schools. This violates everything the first amendment of the Constitution was meant to protect.

Education is all about values and a world view, and it's something that needs to be handled by parents, not the government. To get a government education is most definitely "brainwashing," and very harmful brainwashing at that.

My child is sensible and likeable and proof that homeschooling works. The other kids on our street are turning out to be lost in space in every possible way. Why? Because of the so-called "wonderful schools" we have in our county.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by resistance
I also homeschool. I don't want my child taught Safe Sex, that homosexuality is just a fine way to live, and that Christians are to blame for everything. I don't want my child taught atheism -- basically taught to love everything I hate and to hate everyhthing I love. I don't want my child to be taught that there's no right and wrong, that everybody's right, that the important lesson we must all learn is to just respect everybody else's opinions. What nonsense!





Hear hear. There IS religion being shoved at children in schools (excuse me, public indoctrination centers). It's called humanism, and it is a religion.

We need to ditch the Federal Department of Education.

I plan on homeschooling my son too.



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 01:17 AM
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Amythyst -- How would the atheist/evolutionist/homo-appreciators like it if they had to pay for the Christian schools? But they see nothing wrong with forcingus to pay for their schools. Then they have the nerve to come knocking on my door asking me to buy their cookies and stuff so they can buy uniforms or some other thing they are so "deprived" of. And if they have to buy a calculator or something they holler about that, say they can't "afford" it -- but meantime I have to drive behind the schoolbuses while their kids get carted around. I have to hear about their school board meetings where the parents go and cry because there aren't enough grief counselors or psychiatrists to counsel their little darlings in the public schools. And I have to watch commercials on TV paid for by who knows who complaining that they aren't getting enough art and music at taxpayer's expense.

Makes me want to cry I feel so sorry for these poor people.

It's welfare is all it is, stealing money from Peter to pay Paul. And if I had my way I'd close them all down, every single last one of them. If people want their kids to be educated that way, let them pay for these schools themselves. It's not my responsibility to pay for my neighbor's free indoctrination into the nonsense and wickedness that passes for public school education.

Two of the young women on my school block are wearing birth control patches. Can you imagine? They learn all this junk in public school -- that they're just animals on the food chain, so they might as well act like animals and be treated like animals. Condoms anyone?



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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Okay, I feel I have to comment on a few of the issues that have been raised here and please understand that these are just my personal opinion, as you have expressed yours.

There seems to be a thought that teachers have some sort of agenda to push in schools. That we get together and decide to indoctrinate our students with concepts of morality and what is right and what is wrong. There also seems to be a notion that we are told to do this by government. Let me assure you that the sole agenda teachers have is protecting and educating their students. As I said earlier, teachers can and do express their personal opinions in class. I personally think that homosexuality and sex before marriage are perfectly fine and I will tell my students so if they ask me what my opinion on these matters is. This I have done, in response to student's questions. Often these students have challenged my views quite vigorously, which is wonderful because it teaches them to think for themselves and form reasoned arguments to back their opinions.

Teachers do the best with what we have. If we teach one thing, parents abuse us. If we teach the opposite, more parents abuse us. I have indeed told students where to get condoms from because they were already having regular unprotected sex and were getting sick as a result. My intention in doing so was not to push an agenda that pre-marital sex is acceptable, or that they were "animals on the food chain", it was solely to protect the students, not from intangibles such as immorality, but from illnesses which were making them very sick.

As for paying for state schools, maybe it is because I am from Australia, where we do not pay for health care or education (which is, in my opinion, a far better system), but I think that everybody should contribute to public schooling. You have to pay taxes regardless, so they might as well go towards something more worthwhile than making politicians richer. Also, just because somebody is poor and might not be able to afford private schooling does not make them bad people. Nor should their children have to suffer as a result. Everybody should have the same opportunities and access to education. Again, maybe that is a result of our slight socialist tendencies here in Australia, but in my opinion it is far better than stating that some children are more entitled to an education than others. Furthermore, here in Australia, private schools receive more government funding than state schools, so the debate is kind of reversed.

Teachers are not government agents. All we want is for our students to succeed. Teachers work extremely hard under conditions that are often abysmal, for relatively low pay. We do it because we love the kids, not because we have a "humanist" agenda to push, or because we are "atheist/evolutionist/homo-appreciators". We don't indoctrinate kids - half the time it is all we can do to make them interested in the subject matter to any extent. We don't "harmfully brainwash" kids, we just try to protect them in a world in which their parents increasingly refuse to do so. But hey, if you really want to see what public schools are like, go visit them. Ask the principal if you can sit in on some classes as a concerned parent. I am always happy to have parents sit in on my classes and it always changes their perspective on what teachers do and teach. Because as much as you think they might be on their best behaviour with a parent in the room, experience has taught me that the students really don't care.

[edit on 6/10/05 by Jeremiah25]



posted on Oct, 6 2005 @ 06:08 AM
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its why i stopped going to school their criteria is just too linear, even though its still great for excelling in different aspects of mathematical and scientific endevors!



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