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did Jesus got to hell after He died???

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posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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because the gates of heaven were not opened until Jesus rose from the dead, three days after He died, i was wondering if He went to hell (or anywhere) when He died...

thanks...






posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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That's a great question, and one I've been looking for the answer to, too. It's widely accepted in some Christian circles that He did, while others flat out reject it. Myself, I used to believe He did because that was all I had been told, but as I delved deeper into the Bible, I noticed that it was not mentioned at all in scripture. So why do so many believe He discended into Hell and kicked the Devil's butt, then came up to Heaven?

Ephesians 4:8-10 says (NIV),


8This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


The assumption is, you cannot ascend if you do not first ascend. Yet, isn't going to Heaven ascending from Earth?

So I'm torn. Not sure at all. Glad you asked the question, though. I had been looking into understanding it and got sidetracked. It's a good connundrum, though thankfully understanding it doesn't impact His Message



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Myself, I used to believe He did because that was all I had been told


me too friend...

but that was 8th grade religion and so maybe they "dumb'd it down" so we would understand it...

now, as a senior in high school, i am ready for the real answers and real discussions...

BTW, in 8th grade, they told us that purgatory does not exist...

my dad thinks that purgatory doesn't exist also...

so, is there a real answer for this???

thanks...




posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 06:50 PM
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Groupies:

The phrase taken from the so called Apostles Creed "he was crucified, dead, and buried: he descended into hell, and on the 3rd day rose again from the dead..." really should perhaps be understood more in the Jewish sense "he was lowered into She'ol" (i.e. was buried in a grave) rather than the picture of his consorting with daemons in the flames of Hell/Hinnom/Gehenna...

But there is an early 2nd century AD Christian idea that "Iesous" was kept busy after the crucifixion in some netherworld, and had to "descend to the lower regions (of the departed) in order to preach the gospel to those who slept" meaning the place of the souls of the dead where they had 3 whole days to hear the good news and convert and be saved from some ind of pending Judgment etc...

See the end of the so-called Gospel of Peter Fragment ("and the Voice from one whose head reached unto Heaven asked, Did you Preach to those that Sleep? and the Cross answered, Yea."

The importance of the narratives of the burial of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jesus") in the gospels is possibly more midrashic (haggadic legend) than purely historical and seems to be partly at least based on the verse: "he was numbered with the transgressors, and [buried] with the rich in his death" with the Joseph of Arimathea pericopes, hence the rock tomb story which has other midrashic (hagaddic) elements as well woven into it (like the sealing of the caves of the 5 princes of the Philistines with Rocks), and also may have some conscious literary or liturgial parallels with the god Mithras who was born in a rock cave an attended by Shepherds--the idea that the rock tomb ("in which no man had yet been laid"i.e. a virgin Tomb) was a kind of 2nd womb of re-birthing.

Also there is another verse which was used in the telling of the story handled midrashically (legendary) as well: "But thou didst not leave his Soul in Hell" (lit. You did not leave his nephesh/soul in Sheol/the Pit) nor didst Thou suffer thy Holy One to see Corruption (i.e. worms did not eat his body in the tomb as would have been expected).

The Mystery Religions practiced the grave-resurrection theme in connexion with the rites of Eleusieus near Athens (e.g. in the rites of Kore and Persphone when the earth springs back to life after the death of winter).

The "for three days" or "after three days" period (hardly historical at any event if there was a live body of some sort on a Sunday morning following a Friday night execution = 36 hours is not 3 days) is apparently based on the magical number system of the book of Daniel ("a time, two times and half a time") and is reflected in the Book of Revelation (i.e. the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite) chapter 11 with the "death of the two Martyr Prophets" who after 3 and a half days are miraculously resurrected and rise to heaven like a hot air baloon.

So there are lots of ideas here woven into these stories !



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Neoamadeus:

But there is an early 2nd century AD Christian idea that "Iesous" was kept busy after the crucifixion in some netherworld, and had to "descend to the lower regions (of the departed) in order to preach the gospel to those who slept" meaning the place of the souls of the dead where they had 3 whole days to hear the good news and convert and be saved from some ind of pending Judgment etc...


I am very curious about where you got this. The reason is that in Mormonism there is a very similar idea to this, where Christ spends the 3 days in between his crucifixion and resurrection preaching the gospel to people awaiting judgment that didn't get to hear the gospel in life. I'd love to see a source for this.

Anyway, back to the intended topic, whether or not Jesus went to Hell. In Acts chapter 2, verses 31-33, Peter clearly states that 'Christ's soul was not left in hell', and 'this Jesus hath God raised up... being by the right hand of God exalted'. Therefore, assuming Peter knew what he was talking about, and as the number one disciple of Christ, I think that is safe to say, then Christ went to Heaven to be with God the Father.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
--1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
--1 Peter 4:6 KJV

Since 'hell' is either the grave or tartaros (depending upon if the subjects in question are mortal humans or angelic humanity) it could be possible that is what is being referred to in the 2 verses above.

Here's more verses that speak of these things:

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
--2 Peter 2:3-5 KJV

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1:6 KJV



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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TSA, that's awesome to hear you want to go deeper! First and foremost, you must submerse yourself in the Word. Only by knowing the Word will you be able to see through false prophets and teachers. The Word is living; you can read it thousands of times and still open it one day and discover something new. Daily fellowship with God is also key to this. The Spirit reveals much in ways of interpretation and understanding. By setting aside time to spend alone with God, you give the Spirit a chance to talk to you when you're listening.

Finally do not presume someone's walk with the Lord by their appearance. This is something I have been very guilty of, dismissing lessons God wanted me to know that I dismissed because the person appeared too young, old, or even mentally retarded. The Lord speaks to us through some of the strangest people, and, in my case, I believe all them are geared to humble me and to teach me.

If there's anything I can ever do for you to help you along or keep you encouraged, let me know. I would consider it an honor.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Just out of curiousity how can Jesus have been crucified and buried on the Friday and rise on the Sunday when he was supposed to have been buried for 3 days and 3 nights???

G



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Just out of curiousity how can Jesus have been crucified and buried on the Friday and rise on the Sunday when he was supposed to have been buried for 3 days and 3 nights???

G


Where do you get the three days and three nights thing? Is it from scripture, and if not, where does it come from?



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
If there's anything I can ever do for you to help you along or keep you encouraged, let me know. I would consider it an honor.


actually, there is...

can you provide me with something (anything really) that might help me to understand purgatory...

i was taught that it exists (in the 8th grade) but now i am hearing that it doesn't exist...

thanks...





posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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Hi Jungle Jake:

Take a quick look at the Gospel of " Matthew" in the section about Jonah and the Belly of the Fish: (Matt 12:39-40).


"And Iesous said to them, an evil and adulterous generation seeks for a Sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the Sign of the prophet Jonah. "

"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth..."

It is sometimes put forward that the 2nd half of this Matthean (Q) saying is a later interpolation in view of Luke's different version of the saying

In Luke 11:29-30 the author of Luke (whoever he was) makes Jesus say:

"This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son of man be to this generation."

So the reference to three days and three nights in the belly of the earth is a Matthew only saying, the socalled M-source.

Perhaps the author of Luke knew the three days and nights didn't match the tradition of a Sunday empty tomb, so left the original ending off?

Either way, it doesn't match--neither does the phrase "The Son of Man shall be exalted after three days" or "The Son of Man shall be exalted on the third day" either: but Daniel's famous "a time, two times and half a time" seems to have been midrashically mixed in with the Book of the Prophet Hosea 6:1-2

"Come, and let us return to YHWH:

for he hath wounded us so that he might heal us:
he hath smitten us so that he might bind us up:

After TWO DAYS will he revive us:
yea on the THIRD DAY he will raise us up,
that we might live before his face(s)."

so that R. Yehoshua's empty tomb story (and exaltation/ascension to the Right Hand of YHWH) was understood to have been influenced by the Midrashic (haggadic legendary) expansion of these OT verses--in other words, not "pure history" by any stretch.


Azi

posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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Read the Revelation of St. Peter. It's an alternate version of the Revelation of John the Divine, and focuses more on Jesus himself than the end of the world. In this book, Jesus oges to Hell and rescues both Moses and Elijah. So yes! If you believe this book He did go to hell. And why wouldn't you believe this book? Becasue its not in the Bible? The Revelation of John the Divine (the one in the Bible) was used because it put more emphasis on the church's importance. It was freaking voted on! And the current book of Revelation barely won!

Personally, I found the alternate much more inspiring. My favorite part of the entire Bible is in it, actually:

Jesus was sitting on his throne in Heaven, looking down upon those being tortured for their sins in hell. And Peter said to Jesus, "Will you not save them?" And Jesus tells Peter a secret, that one day they will all be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven!

That, for me, just completely sums up God's love for us. And it also explains purgatory in part as well. Kill two birds with one stone!

>Azi



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Just out of curiousity how can Jesus have been crucified and buried on the Friday and rise on the Sunday when he was supposed to have been buried for 3 days and 3 nights???

G


JJ just learned something!


Back in the day, say about 2,000 years ago and even before, the Jews had their own form of time reckoning. For their purposes, any part of a day denoted a full day. So by Christ spending part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday dead, so far as the Jews were concerned, that was three full days and nights.

Soruce: William Lane Craig, Ph.D., D.Th.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 05:28 PM
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Hi Jungle:

What's your source (exactly) for the Judaeans of the 2nd temple period reckoning parts of days as full days. I admit, I'm stumped !!

I would love to hear your answer. And if I were you I would leave pseudo-scholars out like Mr William Lane Craig whose "research" leaves so much to be desired.

I shudder to think which educational institution granted him a Ph.D. in view of the violence he does to the evidence in his writings. Sort of gives the Americans a bad name abroad, really.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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I got it from an interview with Dr William Lane Craig from Lee Strobel's book, The Case For Christ. The education institution that granted him a Ph.D. was the University of Birmingham, the Theology came from the University of Munich. The University of Birmingham is considered to be one of the top 100 universities in the world, according to the Times Higher Education Supplement of October 2004, so it is understandable that you would question their judgment


What research in particular of his is it that leaves so much to be desired?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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Hey Jungle:

I did not ask whether Lane thinks his bold assertion of "partial days = full days" in the 2nd temple period as "fact" ---I simply asked you to cite sources.

That is, written Sources.

That is Ancient Sources.

Not just hear-say from a Chrsitian apologist who should know better.

Does Lane even TRY to back up any of his assertions that the Judaeans of the 2nd temple period counted parts of days as whole days, making say 36 hours into 3 full days?

I would be very interested to hear his source for this assertion.

That is all.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Ahh, I understand what it was you were asking now. He doesn't go into detail in the book, but the book consists of interviews with sources for further reading and, of course, sources for quoted text. The book is more of a starting place than the end all be all research into the issue.

I will look into it, though, because I'd like to know, too. If I find something, I'll be sure to post it on here!



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Thanks Jungle Jake !!



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Well, by golly, it turns out He didn't!

While talking with a friend over the weekend, we brought up this verse from Luke 23:


43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."




Jesus said this to the thief on the cross next to Him:


40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."


Jesus told him that today the thief would be with Him in paradise. If Jesus was going to go to Hell when He died, how could he meet the thief in paradise that day?



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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did Jesus got to hell after He died???


How can these two points of view be reconciled? What was the original faith of the Church? What do early Christian sources tell us about the descent into Hades? And what is the soteriological significance of the descent of Christ into Hades?

1. Eastern theological tradition

We come across references to the descent of Christ into Hades and His raising the dead in the works of Eastern Christian authors of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, such as Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas, Justin, Melito of Sardes, Hyppolitus of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria and Origen. In the 4th century, the descent to hell was discussed by Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, as well as such Syrian authors as Jacob Aphrahat and Ephrem the Syrian. Noteworthy among later authors who wrote on this theme are Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor and John Damascene.


Read more~

quote///
"I am the good shepherd ... neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand…"
In order to bring believers up in the true faith, and lead them to salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ installed prophets, apostles, bishops and pastors, as it is written,
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the [moral] perfecting of the saints [Christians], for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love,
may grow up into him in all things,
which is the head, even Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-15)

And since Christ Himself established the Church on earth(His Kingdom-church, is not of this world)The church cannor fault, BUT people can.......
Jesus Christ did say...."I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18).

"And He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-12).

www.fatheralexander.org...



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