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9mm Effectiveness in Iraq

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posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 09:38 PM
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a gun is gun is gun. I have a Glock 9 mm which I prefer but I also have a 22 caliber Ruger which I would not hesitate to use and also an old Russian Nagant which I would also use if I had to. I had a 12 gauge shotgun which I sold because I do not hunt and quite frankly it was not practical for home defense contrary to what people might say.
I want semi-automatic for the most part and to be able to control the gun with the least amount of recoil.
I had a 38 special I hated, to much recoil, could not hit the broad side of a barn with it.




posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 03:19 AM
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My argument was never that the 9mm should be replaced. As I have stated earlier (several times) I believe it to be a good choice for line infantry for the reasons stated by others here. After all the thread is about its' use in Iraq.

My remarks about the .45 are in relation to civvy and SF use, hence my "different tools for different rules" remark. This seems to have been taken out of context and switched around to imply that I advocate changing calibres for general use. I didn't.

I do believe that round for round the .45 is more effective, hence its' increased use by SF. They are more likely to be in a position whereby the pistol is a primary weapon, and they want each round to be as effective as possible. These boys are going to be hitting what they shoot at, and want to do as much damage a possible with each round. The .45 does more damage. Believe it or not they are restricted to the same ammunition as the rest of us in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are prepared to sacrifice capacity for end results. You don't have to take my word for it - the US SF community are voting with their weapon choices.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 10:15 PM
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So, basically everyone on this thread that has combat experience and knows how to shoot feels comfortable with the overall effectiveness of the 9mm.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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If you shoot better with 5.7, or a 9mm or a 357 or a 40 or a 45 or a 10mm, .50 or a magnum, then that's the best one. Every single round you could ever buy is a combination of trade-offs. The one that has the accuracy, kinetic energy, weight, penetration, fragmentation, and recoil that fits your ideal, is the best.
P.S. Where in the world do you live where gangsters and hoodlums walk around with body armor on? Oh wait, you've never actually seen anyone except law enforcement wearing armor, right?



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by cruzion
 


I agree with you on certain levels. If one is going to miss with a .44 magnum and hit with a .22 cal then it is better to choose the .22 cal, so yes, the one you shoot better is the best one. However, as you mentioned every round is a combination of trade-offs. This being said (and we are talking about overall effectiveness of a round for combat applications) one must weigh all the trade-offs and make a decision based on overall effectiveness. [You mentioned accuracy, kinetic energy, weight, penetration, (Fragmentation… not from most pistol caliber rounds…), and recoil.] Don’t forget capacity, availability, and cost of the ammunition that makes for a truly Effective round. It is for these reasons that the 9mm is the standard NATO pistol caliber round. In the hands of a trained professional the 9mm has come out on top.
P.S. Body armor is becoming more and more common throughout the world. In Fallujah, Iraq it was not uncommon to come across a drugged terrorist wearing body armor, a tough and determined combination. So you asked where in the ‘world’ I live where gangsters and hoodlums walk around with body armor… Not all of us live in white suburbia. The body armor law enforcement officers wear is a joke compared to what I have seen.



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Force is a function of both Speed AND Mass....lest we forget the math:
F=MV



posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 06:13 AM
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Nice try. F=ma. Not readily applicable.
Kinetic Energy, KE=1/2 mv^2
So in the KE discussion the velocity term gets squared, making, one could say, changes in velocity more important than comparable changes in mass.
The FBI study "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" has gotten consistently good reviews and is widely accepted. It places the priority on shot placement and penetration, with energy being somewhat less important. This makes since to me.
I have no combat experience and have never shot anyone; fortunately, the few times I was required to pull a gun on someone, they saw the light. For what it's worth, I am an engineer with a working knowledge of Newtonian physics and a lot of experience behind the sights.
Best of luck to those of you who serve and thanks.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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I don’t care about 9mm or 10mm 357 40, 45, 44 or whatever you may use to defend. If I engage with a 22 you better believe that I will execute an effective shot that will eliminate my combatant. SO with all your complaints about the 9mm ,5.7 or what have you, - You may need to consider that your combatant can and will orchestrate an effective shot using a rubber sling and a rock- while you stand there with your 357 in aw of his weapon that just placed two round on your head.
If a person breaches your house and is wearing body armor then consider this.
1. He has the money or employer that cares enough for his safety to purchase the body armor
2. His plan is not to rob you but to kill you
3. He has a lot of experience breaching houses and you will be dead before you get a shot off.
4. Your best security is a loud dog and a loaded shotgun.

Better guns and better weapons don’t make you a better shot.



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by LcplKill
 

LcplKill, no. I was Special Forces, serving in a Ranger Company. 42 or 44 confirmed, depending on whether you use company or battalion records.

You are bitter.

You had the "displeasure" of using your weapon in combat? Exactly what in hell were you doing it for, if it was unpleasant? And don't tell me you joined up for the chow.

I bet you were compelled to, as there was a firefight. And if there was a firefight, and you didn't engage, you'd not be pulling your own freight. Right?

Sorry you didn't enjoy it. Sorry you didn't relish it. Sorry you didn't celebrate it. . . . are you crazy or something? No one said it was fun, and certainly not me. It was a job. You do your job, or you find somewhere else to play.

You hit someone in the pelvic area with all that bone mass, and I guarantee you, it will knock him down.

I'm very sorry Cpl. Rund died in combat. You have no idea how sorry I am. I lost friends too, soaked in their blood, with gore all over me. To this day, I havent' been able to wash it off. And there's not a damned thing I can do about it. My honor is having known them, served with them, laughed with them, and yes, even bitching with them.

You can knock off the feeling sorry for yourself, because I don't want to hear it. You had a rough? Get over it. Grow a pair. You think you're the only one who lost friends and people?

You think somehow you're unique?

Son, you're just one of hundreds of thousands. You're nothing special. You experienced nothing special. You're due nothing special.

You can elect to walk around with your ass on your shoulders begging for pity parties for the rest of your life, or you can cowboy-up. No one wants to hear it, especially someone like me. You aren't special!

The faster you realize that, the faster you can get back into the game. You keep up this bitterness, walking around with a chip on your shoulder, and you can lose everything. I mean everything that was ever dear to you.

Yes. I used a .45 in combat. My favorite weapons were the M-14 and the Winchester Model 12, cut down.

My goal was not to shoot a man to doll rags, but put him down!

The .45 does that quite well.

You'd know that if you ever tried it.

So I'll sit here for a period and feel sorry for you.

OK. All done.

Get back in the game.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by dooper]



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


Dooper,

Agree with the bulk of your post. Cowboy up. No one promises us the choicest morsels off the plate. Nor all the best choices. We ante up and must cowboy up. No one ever asks us if we like or approve of it.

It can indeed leave us scarred but we must get past this and learn to function in spite of these difficulties.

On another topic line, I looked up the Winchester Model 12. Very interesting article on it.

en.wikipedia.org...

I was not aware that this shotgun went back that far..nor that it had no trigger disconnector. I own a Ithica model 37 Police Special with the same set up ..no trigger disconnector. I do not try to operate it so as it tends to jump right out of my hands if I continue to fire it by just pumping.
Nonetheless this is a very powerful and fast handliing 12 gauge tool in close quarters.
Up to the point of reading this article I had thought that only the Ithica Model 37 was made with this feature..no trigger disconnect. I now stand corrected.

Thanks for your post.
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 

Yeah, orangetom. Wounds will eventually begin to heal somewhat, but it never will if you keep picking at the scab. It takes a while, but when those thoughts are triggered by a sound, an odor, a color, shape, or comment, you learn to forcefully think hard about something else.

As time goes by, these things get eased further and further toward the back of the mind, but never soon enough, and never back far enough. They never, ever go away, but at least they aren't right up front blocking everything else.

To this day, I cannot sit with my back to a door, tend to sit in the rear of a room, never in the middle of a clearing, I'm always checking behind me, and no one moves within sight that I don't know what they're doing and why. My friends try to set me up to change me up sometimes, but it's never worked.

I could never, ever, eat anything that evening after a day of action. No appetite whatsoever. No real sleep that night. Killing is a bit unsettling. And the day it doesn't bother you, you are beyond screwed.

A lot of distasteful things one is required to do. I stand amazed at what a person can get accustomed to. The trick I learned is to keep my eyes moving, and not let those "pictures" burn into my memory.

You got to move on. Every day is a new start. You keep looking over your shoulder, and you'll never get where you're going.

My Model 12 had been written off as a "combat loss," enabling it to be customized somewhat, and the feature I loved most was the slot cut into the loading gate, enabling me to clear a jam fast.

The ability to fire as you rack the slide forward was nice, but I never made a habit of it. Even shooting skeet, when I yell "pull," there's nothing in my chamber. Old habits. Doesn't seem to affect my shooting.

Everybody has their favorite pistol rounds. Some are superior for plinking, some superior for game, some superior for large game, some are easy to shoot, and some are fun to shoot.

But to me, the all-purpose, day-in and day-out, get-the-job-done in combat is the .45 ACP.


[edit on 1-2-2009 by dooper]



posted on Feb, 1 2009 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


Dooper,

Thanks for your views. I have never been in the situation you describe and have never, in that manner, lost friends and companions.

I think it is coming again..soon for many of us here in this country. I think most of the country is asleep at the wheel on this.

I have known quite a number of vets from WW2, Korea, and Nam....and of course now ..the desert/mountain wars.

Many of them have difficulty talking about it and I dont push it with them. I tend to let them speak of and about it at thier discretion...their moment of choice...when their soul is ready. Most of them will eventually talk about it one to one..but are not wont to speak in a large crowd about such things. Can't say as I blame them.

I too prefer to sit not with my back to a door. I dont know why but I have always been this way. I also dont like large crowds..going to concerts and such....shopping centers, Disney World, Bush Gardens and other such places.
It is my habit too in watching what is around me. My eyes are often moving.
Had dinner one evening with a policeman and his wife..He picked up on it immediately and made mention. I was not even aware I was doing it....it is simply what I do.

I prefer the graveyard shifts..the less people around the better. I like the comfort of the night. It is not that one does not have friends or associates but it is a matter of one being choosy or selective about to whom, where, and when one trusts another human with ones life or goods earned at great risk to ones life and safety. This applies even to the woman/women on whom I choose to spend my time and moneys. Especially to them.

Agree ..one can get accustomed to alot. More than one would ordinarily think.

My 1911 is here next to me as I type this. I keep either a .45ACP around or a .357 Wheel Gun closeby...though my primary house tool is that Model 37 Ithica I mentioned.

Thanks for your posts and the update on the Winchester Model 12.

Orangetom



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


i agree with you, what is the sense of a big caliber if you could not hit the target.



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