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9mm Effectiveness in Iraq

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posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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This is a recent report and testifies very well as to the effectiveness of 9mm on terrorists, and remember, this 9mm is plain 124gr NATO FMJ, the stuff we only use to practice with. 9mm JHP would perform to an even higher standard.

www.gunweek.com...




posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 04:09 PM
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I don't know....maybe it's because I'm "old" -- over 50 -- but I've always been partial for the man-stopping power of the good old, tried and true, Colt .45 1911. That big .45 slug packs a hell of a whallop and is guaranteed to "put down" even the most fervant and zealous opponent.

Of course I'm talking side arms here, but I'd rather have that trusty old .45 than a 9mm. The 9mm is a good round but it has a tendency to simply "go through" the target as opposed to the .45's "hit by a ton of bricks" stopping power.

Nevertheless, nice report on personal weapons of the professional contractor.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by benevolent tyrantThat big .45 slug packs a hell of a whallop and is guaranteed to "put down" even the most fervant and zealous opponent.


The .45 deserves a lot of respect for its service, but you can't guarantee that kind of performance from a rifle round let alone a pistol round.

Let's be honest, all pistol rounds are under-powered.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:48 AM
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All pistol rounds may be unpowered, but just how underpowered is up to YOU!

10mm is a beast- better ballistics than the .45 . Somehow, it didn't take. I don't know why.

.357 Magnum is a tried-and-true manstopper. As for your story on the other thread about Trooper Coates, I'll bet the perp wasn't running ANYWHERE!

I am always partial to the delicious stopping power of 12 gauge tactical buck. But, if I had to carry a sidearm -hell, it's prolly a when now- I'd go for a 10mm. The 9mm isn't a bad round, I suppose. It's definitely not something I'd take if I had the chance. Yes, it is a combat round, yes, it does do its job if placed properly. However, with a higher powered round, the 'if placed properly' contigency becomes less of an issue.

From your article:

"In all, he shot six men with that FN High Power, and two more with a Beretta M-9 in 2003. He feels that the cartridge will usually suffice, and no one that he shot argued the issue with him. Nevertheless, he would have felt somewhat more confident with a heavier caliber. The ammo supply just precluded that being a practical issue."

I too would feel much more confident. Yes, my rangemaster swears by his Glock 17. My preference just happens to be that when I decide to employ lethal force, the person in question won't simply take off running once I've perforated them.

They might bring friends.

DE



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:34 AM
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9mm Parabellum has been in use for about a century in most parts of the world, and only americans are bitching about it's stopping power, rest of the world knows it's good enough for stopping unarmored personel.
And when it comes to body armor it's better than .45, but by no means perfect..



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by northwolf
9mm Parabellum has been in use for about a century in most parts of the world, and only americans are bitching about it's stopping power


I would prefer to say that we discuss its relative merits and shortcomings.

This may be politically insensitive, but there is another factor that American law enforcement has to consider in caliber selection, namely that your average American criminal tends to have a significantly higher body mass than your average Finnish criminal.

Even in 9mm, American law enforcement uses heavier more powerful loads with bullet weights in the 124gr to 147gr range and loadings with +P+ pressure levels. In Europe, 95 grain hollow points manufactured by GECO and Radway Green are commonplace, and while they seem to stop European criminals quite effectively, they wouldn't fare so well in the US.

Like I said, not very nice but there it is.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Translation: Americans are fat, they need mroe stopping power.


Naw, most law enforcement - even up here- has graduated to .40 Short and Weak. THe OPP and I think a few other agencies went for a larger round, but 9mm is virtually extinct up here in LEO hands.

DE



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Out here cops mainly use Speer Gold Dots on Glock 17s
And when it comes to body mass Finns are not on the small size, being one of the "largest/tallest/fattest" nations in the world...

If i had to select a lawenforcement round i'd pick .40S&W with a fast load and hydrashock bullet.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 04:00 PM
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I liked the response a SEAL gave when asked about the stopping power of the 9mm.

It was something to the effect of-

"Some people complain about the stopping power of the 9mm, You wont think so when I put two in your chest and one in your head"

I personally think the armed services should use the FN Five-Seven. The ballistics of its 5.7x28mm AP are amazing. Ive seen them shoot through both sides of a bullet proof vest and a Nato helmet.

FN FIVE SEVEN



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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Terminal ballistics of 5.7x28 is still a bit mystery and i've heard some bad reports about it's stopping power after Finnish Paratroops tested the P90

The reason they rejected P90 wasn't the round though, rather feeding problems combined with poor performance in cold (sub -15C) temperatures, including part failures etc.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Yeah the way the P-90 feeds bullets from the magazine is rather unorthodox.The magazine's turntable" rotates the cartridge 90 degrees into alignment with the barrel just before it enters the chamber.

Cant say I ever seen a gun using that before or since

The Five-Seven on the other hand is quite convential in that aspect

[edit on 22-9-2005 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I personally think the armed services should use the FN Five-Seven. The ballistics of its 5.7x28mm AP are amazing. Ive seen them shoot through both sides of a bullet proof vest and a Nato helmet.


Quick, use an EVEN SMALLER BULLET!

I've heard great things about the 5.7mm's ability to penetrate armor, and to do damage once it's penetrated.

However, I've also heard that on unarmored targets, you might as well be heaving rocks.

DE



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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A 9mm is not something to laugh at by any means, but I think some of the newer rounds are better. I was wondering if anyone knows the ballistics pof a .357 sig vs. 10mm vs. .40 cal. Which round is the best in your opinion and why?



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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What everyone tends to forget when discussing terminal ballistics is the need to hit your target, and the need for follow up shots. As you up the power ante from 9mm to 40S&W to 10mm, the same sized gun becomes harder to control, that means you need to become more proficient to achieve the hits and follow up times with a 10mm that you previously achieved with a 9mm.

Federal Hydrashocks were good rounds, but by modern standards they are now old school which is why Federal has launched the newer HST and Tactical lines. Law Enforcement really need bonded bullets that stay in one piece after shooting through automobile bodies/windshields/drywall that's one of the reasons that Speer is cleaning up the sales with their superb Gold Dot line of ammunition - even the Finns are using it


As for FN's 5.7mm ammunition, I confess that I too had doubts about shooting bad guys with a needle, but it was used to shoot a terrorist in an embassy raid somewhere in South America. The guy was hit a couple of times and died before hitting the ground, if I can find a link I'll post as I'm a little shaky on the facts. We certainly need more evidence before placing too much faith in sub-caliber rounds - but hey, those P90's seem to work pretty well in Stargate Atlantis



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

Quick, use an EVEN SMALLER BULLET!

I've heard great things about the 5.7mm's ability to penetrate armor, and to do damage once it's penetrated.

However, I've also heard that on unarmored targets, you might as well be heaving rocks.

DE


You wont be complaing about the stopping power of the 5.7 x 28 as your 9mms and .45s are being stopped dead by your targets body armour. Those are about as effective as throwing rocks when a enemy is armoured. Actually a rock might be more effective.

But really you have many options with the 5.7 x 28 if you have no chance of fighting armoured enemies you go with the SS196 (Hollow point) 5.7 x 28 . If you think your going to encounter armoured threats go with the SS190 AP round.

I dont want to hear about the ''The Hague Convention'' and hollow points either the US is not a ratified member of it.



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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I dont want to hear about the ''The Hague Convention'' and hollow points either the US is not a ratified member of it.

Are you saying the US does NOT use hollow point rounds?

I like the 9mm...IMO, it's all about power vs. quantity......the 9mm (with LE/Mil mags) is a good combo of the two.

sporty

[edit on 23/9/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 12:30 PM
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Bofors CBJ MS

I've heard some promising "news" about this PDW and its cartridge 6.5 x 25 mm, it has some tungsten in it to boost penetration but is said still to retain good terminal ballistics.
But neither the weapon or the round is battle proven yet... interesting anyway



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB


I dont want to hear about the ''The Hague Convention'' and hollow points either the US is not a ratified member of it.

Are you saying the US does NOT use hollow point rounds?

[edit on 23/9/2005 by SportyMB]



No just because I hear people all the time say Hollow points are illegal in war because of the ''Geneva convention''. First off the Geneva convention does not deal with weapons Its the ''The Hague Convention'' That dealt with that issue and second the US never ratified it. Alot of countries did though and are banned from using expanding rounds in warfare. Many NATO countries will not use hollow points in war.

You be suprised how many people bring up the Geneva convetion when talking about expanding or frag bullets in warfare

[edit on 23-9-2005 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
You wont be complaing about the stopping power of the 5.7 x 28 as your 9mms and .45s are being stopped dead by your targets body armour. Those are about as effective as throwing rocks when a enemy is armoured. Actually a rock might be more effective.


Go, rock, GOOOOO!

Query: since when are insurgents wearing body armor? Just wondering, because I'm guessing that 90% of criminals and poor-ass insurgents don't have body armor. Also, while a man in body armor can shrug off (sort of) a hit from a 9mm, the amount of power in the 10mm or .357 will largely reduce the wearer of soft body armor's insides to dog food. The blunt trauma works too, you know. Don't get me wrong, I am a passionate lover of FN. But frankly, the 5.7mm round's uses are limited to body armor, prettymuch. Even with the hollow point, the bullet simply doesn't have the proper stopping power needed even for defensive carry.

When insurgents wear body armor, bring out the 5.7 mm. I encourage it. But, since most gangbangers and terrorists tend to be unarmored...why use it? Like I said, heave rocks.

DE



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by warpboost
A 9mm is not something to laugh at by any means, but I think some of the newer rounds are better. I was wondering if anyone knows the ballistics pof a .357 sig vs. 10mm vs. .40 cal. Which round is the best in your opinion and why?


world.guns.ru...

I'd go with 357 Mag, but in an autoloader, prolly 10mm or .40. Most police forces use .40 , and it's pretty quaint. Hardly what you'd call a massive round. .357 Sig is a freakishly overpowered 9mm, and 10mm is a beast. If I could find a gun that coudl adequately handle the 10mm, I'd take it. It's rough on even the 1911 frame, which says something.

DE



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