Did you grow up with wood heating? Your kids might.

Originally posted by Dallas

Wood burning was a thing of our past. I'm not sure there's a whole lot of wood left -- I could and hopefully be wrong about it but either way we use more wood than grown. That I'm very sure about.

So -- Oil and Gas is gone then what? It's scary to me, not for me but my Son and his offspring to come.

Dallas

Wood is not a thing of past. For example, in 1905 only 20% of the state of New Hampshire was wooded, due to agriculture. Now, 80% of the state is wooded. There's lots of fuel and people use it all the time.

That's what I want. I'd like to use it to heat my house and my barn both. Aer they hard to get, hard to install, expensive? I already have a boiler system set up for the house, so it would be easy to convert it from gas to the outdoor woodstove.

Wood boilers are kinda pricey depending on the type you get and some areas have resrictions on them but given you mentioned a barn im guessing you are out in the country so i wouldnt think it was a problem. As far as converting your existing boiler that shouldnt be a problem , most of the time wood boilers are used as an addon if the home allready has a heating system. Basically in your case the wood boiler would be heating the water before it got to your boiler so your boiler wouldnt turn on becuase the water would allready be hot enough, and if your outdoor boiler ever failed you would have the option to have your existing boiler kick on. Now in my case what ive done is i layed 1 inch copper pipe underground running to and from where i placed my boiler, i insulated the pipe with 2 inch think pink construction foam ( not sure what they call it its the pink stuff they insulate houses with) . I then poured a small 10 X 12 concrete slab where the pipes came out of the ground to set the stove on. I went out and bought a cheap 8 x 10 tin building from home depot and put it together on the concrete slab. Ive got a firewood rack sitting in the back of the building and one on the side plus room for another inside the building. The stove sits to one side of the building and the firewood rack on the inside of the building is a good way to help dry out any green wood becuase the building gets hot and it acts like a kiln.

After setting this all up i mounted a low wattage pump in my basement to pump the water from the stove through an old heating coil that i mounted in my existing duct work. The coil i used came out of an old heat pump system that failed but any coil can be used ive even seen car radiators used and they have built in pressure relief so they arent a bad choice. Anyway the wood stove heats the water in the water jacket around the stove then the hot water is pumped into the coil and the blower fan from my current heating system blows all the hot air into the house through the vents. This equal distribution of hot air is ten times nicer then a normal wood stove becuase all of the rooms get heated equally not like a normal wood stove that makes one room hot as hell and the rooms further away end up remaining cold.


Something that i did that may be an additional option for you if there is a nearby water source you could also cool your house for next to nothing. At my house there was an undreground cistern when i first moved in that cracked and i ended up hooking to city water rather then fixing it. Two years later the part of the crack sealed itself i guess when the ground shifted so i ended up with 5,000 plus gallons of water underground in a big concrete like vault. The water stays around 58 degrees all year long since its underground so it got me to thinking about how i could use that to cool my house. What i did was i placed my outdoor boiler setup right next to the old cistern and ran refrigerant copper tubing from the water stove to the cistern underground and then i put 300 feet of refrigerant tubing in the water to use as a coil. I installed bypass valves in my line at the water stove so the water went straight from the house through the coils in the cistern and then back to the house through the coil in the duct work. The coil in the duct work ranges in temp from 60 degrees to 65 degrees when i run the water through this setup and i get 69 to 76 degree air blowing out into my house when using the cooling side of my rig. The air blowing out is enough to cool my house but
on really hot days 90+ my central air kicks on but I made sure to place the coil in my duct work so that its placed before my existing heat pump coil as far as the air is flowing. With the coil being before my heatpump/central air coil it helps out on the days i have to use the central air because the return air going across the central air coil is allready cooled so the unit doesnt work as hard or draw as many amps. I call it redneck geo thermal..............

This can be a terrible idea if more people catch on to it, but I don't think it will. Sure wood is a renewable resource, just like oil, coal and natural gas. What was stated in the OP is propoganda, making wood out to seem as if it is the 'only' renewable reasource.

And it is only renewable so long as the tree growth to maturity is as high as the consumption rate. If that rate dips, there won't be any trees left. Trees are already used in timber, paper, etc. Adding another billion dollar business to the pile can only be bad.

Besides, the EPA shut down on the construction of new oil refineries in the 70's because of the pollution. The EPA will then eventually have the government put up some more lame restrictions on what we can do with our private property if this epidemic spreads.

I'd love to burn the leaves that fall in my backyard (maybe I'll switch to flags:lol as I have devised numerous ways to extract the heat onto my hands and the into the house.

First, there actually are more forests in the United States than there were two hundred years ago. The difference is that modern forestry techniques are used providce for a much improved harvesting and replanting practices . But the main reason that there are now more forests is that modern fire fighting practices have greatly diminished the amount of forests that used to be destroyed by fires on a regular basis throughout history. The firefighting techniques have actually become so effective that it has recently beome necessary for fires to actually be started so as to create a more natural forest environment.

But the one detrimental or negative aspect to forestry is the fact that instead of seeing forests with a wide variety of trees of varying species, the forests are now being planted with several very specific types of trees. Gone are the days of virgin forests populated with a wide range of varying species. Now forests are planted for maximum harvest of specific wood types. We don't know just how damaging this particular sort of forestry is to the environment but it certainly doesn't bode well. By limiting the number of species and types of trees, we are becoming more and more dependent on fewer and fewer species of tree which , at the same time, are becoming more and more suseptible to an increased likelihood of disease and insect pests such as the Ash Borer Beatle.

On another aspect of this, wood stoves have increased tremendously in their efficiency over the years. At present, using properly dried woods -- especially hard woods == pollution has been greatly diminished. If more people start using wood burning stoves, I am sure that the technology would be enhanced even further. Besides, the obese youngers of the U.S. could probably use the exercise chopping and splitting wood.

On inside of the "ash door" on my woodburning stove it says:

WARNING
KEEP FULLY CLOSED
WHEN BURNING WOOD
FAILURE TO COMPLY
IS A VIOLATION OF
FEDERAL LAW

Does anyone know what law that refers to? The weird thing is that whenever you are starting a fire or if it needs stoked you pretty much need the extra air that an open ash door gives or the fire will go out.

Originally posted by minniescar
Wood boilers are kinda pricey depending on the type you get

I went low tech. I just have a 3/4 inch black pipe with some black iron elbows that wrap around the square top of my woodburner and work on thermosiphon via 1/2 copper to an old electric water heater above. Keeps my tank rediculous hot all winter. Project cost was under $150 when you count the extra pipe to locate my waterheater in the attic. Goodbye to about $25-30 a month to the electic company to keep hot water on tap. If I were to upgrade, I'd go bent stainless 3/4" pipe around the woodburner; no joints, shiny look, and less sediment in the hot water.

Sri Oracle

[edit on 3-10-2005 by Sri Oracle]

Dear Miniscar and Oracle

Thanks for the great ideas. I'm going to try to incorporate them into a way to heat my house and barn. I don't have a lot of money to buy one of those outdoor furances new (like $9,000). I heard there's no use trying to find one used because they're all rusted out.

i found out the pop density by 6 300 000 000 divided by 200 000.

yeah didnt think of high rises, still its really crowded.

but why fit every one into texas? whats wrong with texas and california?
or why not build in it the south australian desert? near coober pedy. its bigger then texas and california and is nothing but shiny balck rocks, sand, and other # like that, no trees grow there.

why not spread every one out evenly out over the entire surface of the earth, each having their own 2 acres or watever to grow their trees on and their food and every thing. i am confident that with only 1 hectare, you could grow all your food, and all your fuel needs. for a family of at least 6, more if you didnt eat like a pig.

might have to work, but ya could do it. we almost do, and we dont even cut down trees.

now i think of it, if you did that, and owned your land, you wouldnt have to work, just grow ya food and wood.

but then society would turn into a anarchic sort of thing-o, with every one just eating and growing food. and all the hallmarks of civilisation, such as wars new york and so on, would be no more.

This can be a terrible idea if more people catch on to it, but I don't think it will. Sure wood is a renewable resource, just like oil, coal and natural gas. What was stated in the OP is propoganda, making wood out to seem as if it is the 'only' renewable reasource.

And it is only renewable so long as the tree growth to maturity is as high as the consumption rate. If that rate dips, there won't be any trees left. Trees are already used in timber, paper, etc. Adding another billion dollar business to the pile can only be bad.

Yes wood is a renewable source that could run out if overused but unlike oil we have the ability to re engineer trees which we have allready done in some cases. For example i have some hybrid poplar trees on my property that can grow more then 10 feet in a year. ( yes i said that correctly ) these poplars have been selectivly bred in order to achieve this astronomical growth rate. If the demand for wood increased beleive me there would be more selective breeding programs to meet the needs. Its concievable that trees could be bred to burn more enviromentaly friendly since a tree in escence is mother natures version of a solar cell.

Additionally wood burning is not the answer to everyone, heating and cooling setups need to be determined by your geographical area and your needs. For instance electric heat pumps function cheaply and efficently as long as the temp out side is above freezing , once it dips below freezing there is no heat for them to extract therfore they are useless. If you live in an area that the temp rarely ever gets below freezing a heat pump would be great. If you live in an area that the temp drops below freezing for a week or so during the year then a duel fuel heat pump would be good ,( duel fuel heat pumps use gas or electricty to heat coils if the temp drops below freezing so the pump can still function ) or you could use a heat pump and a wood stove and just use the stove on those real cold spells . If you live in an area where it drops below frezing for a long time then a wood boiler is great , you can heat multiple buildings and there a generally sized large enough you only have to fill them once a day with firewood. The key to the solution is there is no one correct solution there are multiple depending on your geographic location , plus people have a tendancy to have only one heat source and thats a problem, duel fuel setups should be a must.



Sri Oracle not knowing where you live i dont think anyone can give you a definate answer on why your stove says that however if you are in the US then it may be a case of miss wording. There are federal regulations on wood stoves and restrictions on them that i guess are in esscence laws but i dont think the stove police are going to bust you. Anyway does your stove have a catalytic system on it? if it does then leaving the door to the ash pan open would mess with its proper function,becuase the fire ends up with more air and burns faster with the door open.

As far as your setup is concened i know alot of people using similiar designs and i think they even make an addon aftermarket device like what you have made. In my situation this setup wouldnt work becuase im gone a good precentage of the day and i dont want a fire burning when im not there.


resistance, you can find used outdoor boilers just check with a dealer because people trade them in on larger models or newer models with more options. The ones that are all rusted out are poorly made if you ask me, if they are going to use a metal other then stainless steel then they need to have the system be a closed system that doesnt allow any air into it to prevent rust and corrosion. If you want and you have a welder or accsess to one you can make your own like i did. Or you could do a similiar setup like oracle did ,here is an extremely low tech and easy boiler , first find a 55 gallon drum then buy a cheap barrel stove kit , wrap the barrell in 3/4 inch ( or larger if you can find it) copper tubing , the more wraps the better then run the outlet side of the tubing to an old water heater ( the water heater doesnt need to function it just needs to hold water ) Wrap both the water heater and the wood stove in insullation ( non flamable of course ) Then add a pump to the setup to pump the water from around the stove to the old water heater and then from the water heater to whatever you use as you heat coil in your house.

The reason for the old water heater is with this style setup you would need more water then just what is in the coils around the stove plus the water heater should allready have a safety valve to relieve the pressure if the water got to a boiling point versus exploding. To regulate the fire you can just add a mechanical damper with a thermostat and you got yourself an instant cheap water stove.

miniscar -- Wow, thanks for all the great info. You may be saving me thousands!

One more question. The barn is 60 feet from the house. Can I use one furnace to heat them both? Will the long line to the barn use up too much heat?

Thanks again for sharing your expertise on this.

I'm proud of my father in New Zealand. He's invented an affordable device that can help solve the wood fire pollution problem. Its currently in the final testing stage. www.youtube.com...