It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Informal Poll: Ritual Majik vs. Mind Over Matter

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 01:52 AM
link   
There are many matters of the mind that science cannot explain. If we, for arguments sake, assume that people like Merlin (wizards, mages, witches, etc.) actually had/have abilities beyond "parlor tricks". Do you believe that Ritual Majik is really necessary to empower them or just the belief that these things were/are possible?

Personally, I'm unsure if it was "rituals". However I am a believer in mind over matter. In my opinion I believe that a lack of science (telling them that these things were impossible) and their "belief" that rituals enabled them, gave them a mind over matter effect. This stems from the fact that I believe I've had o.b.e.'s and premonitions and I wouldn't consider myself a ritual practitioner, pagan, or satanic.

Sorry debunkers this thread is not for you. These things are supernatural by nature, which means literally: not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws. Therefore arguing existance or proof is a mute point. This is a matter of personal experience and/or belief.

So to those of you who believe in supernatural abilities, do you objectively (uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) believe that "rituals" are necessary, or, are they just an enabler to overcome "rational science's logic" to achieve a mind over matter effect?




I have recieved a few great u2u's regarding this (and welcome more if you don't feel comfortable sharing here) so for clarification.

I am defining rituals as a prescribed order of a religious "ceremony" calling on a "higher" power for a result.

I am defining mind over matter as an internal process involving meditation/visualization for a result.

[edit on 18/9/05 by redmage]

[edit on 18/9/05 by redmage]

[edit on 18/9/05 by redmage]




posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 02:39 AM
link   
As an undergraduate anthropology project four of us decided to explore voodoo. We drew the symbols on the floor, chanted the chant, beat the drums as laid out in our text by Winston LaFarge. We were also drinking rum as practiced in some voodoo rituals. At the time it was just another reason to party expecting nothing to happen.

About 30 mins into the ritual of dancing, drumming and drinking, one of our female members fell into an apparent trance and started shouting phrases that were "strange" in both english and a language we couldn't understand. We brought the ritual to an abrubt end realizing this was something we had no business even experimenting with. In a few minutes the young lady was back to normal with no recollection of her trance.

Some other students in the anthro. dept. tried some Native American rituals also with unexpedted results.

I personally feel that the "high strangness" was a result of ritual even though poorly performed and approached in a very cynical manner. Rational science might have played a psychological part; but my gut feeling is that we tapped into forces normally not encountered by white, middle class college students.

What we thought was going to be party with a theme actually brought us to a frightening encounter with the unknown.





[edit on 18-9-2005 by whaaa]

[edit on 18-9-2005 by whaaa]



posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 03:57 AM
link   
Thanks for the reply whaaa. This is exactly what I was wanting to find/research.

Were you really expecting nothing to happen? Do you feel that the ritual could have opened you up to the idea that, beyond scientific explanation, something could happen? To me, imho, just the fact of taking the time to perform a ritual itself seems to suggest the latter.

Have you asked the other members of the group if they were open to the possibility of "something happening" or were they all in agreeance that it was "just another reason to party"? If it was a reason to party did their opinions change mid ritual, after the occurance, or at all?

My questions stem from similarities with experiences friends have had with ouija boards and in your words the rituals were "poorly performed and approached in a very cynical manner" the same as theirs with the ouija board.

This brings me to the importance of rituals themselves. It seems that if a ritual were really necessary it would have to be quite exact to gain a desired effect, yet, varying rituals performed without "reverence" from different belief systems can still produce similar effects. True, they may not be "desired" persay but definately supernatural if that's what people are looking for. My own experiences with the astral plane have had no rituals attached yet some believe rituals are necessary.

This is why I wonder about ritual Majik and would like to study it further. I realize that like i said in my origional post "proof is a mute point" but this is a great place to research human experience, and I am a firm believer that you can learn something from everyone in this life.

If you get a chance to speak with, and ask, the others from your group please keep me posted! Thanks again for the reply.


[edit on 18/9/05 by redmage]

[edit on 18/9/05 by redmage]



posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 11:23 AM
link   
This physical world is subject to all laws of dimensions above it, as above so below. As you said you have experienced OBEs and I assume you have realized the power that thought has over matter, in the astral dimension. The physical dimension has the same laws, your thought directly affects matter. Although you might not see the changes immediately be assured they will take place.

Our physical world is also subject to duality. Our world is made up of opposites, and until we go beyond them we are tied down through them. If through internal thought, affirmations and visualizations, and some external action I became a billionaire in a matter of weeks, be assured it will not last. Nothing is permanent, and everything is subject to cycles. Sure I might become a biollionaire, but the next day I may find myself in jail.

It is much better to let things BE.



posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 01:16 PM
link   
I believe the mind-over-matter is what applies to both. When we preform Ritual Magik it gives us a means of focusing. When you simply try to preform, it is hard to get the desired results. Ritual Magik allows us to focus on the goal. It is done in every part of life. How many basketball players have a ritual they do before a foul shot? How many theater actors have a specific ritual they do before they go on stage? I think the act of a ritual allows us to put our mind deeper into the matter we are attempting to do. It enables us to channel the energies and produce an effect.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 03:51 AM
link   
Thanks for your replies.


AkashicW

Interesting viewpoint, thanks for sharing. I assume from your post and knowledge of the subject that you've had similar experiences, so the question I pose is; Do you feel you need to call upon external spirits or deities through religious ceremony to achieve a desired result or do you feel these abilities reside within you with acceptance of possibilities and without "external help"?

Ariande T

Thanks for the post. I think we share similar opinions. The recent trend of religion in sports has given me quite a few chuckles though. Imho, the idea that an enlightened higher being has time, or care, to influence the outcome of something as trivial as a sporting event for our entertainment seems a bit silly to me
.

As a non practitioner of ritual majik, I agree that it can be hard to get desired results through self medetation/visualization alone but do not have a basis of comparison to see how much "easier" it would be with rituals attached. So, I would ask you; Do you feel there is any inherent danger in experiencing the supernatural without a ritual and external help attached or that it is truly a means of focusing one's natural abilities?


Thanks to all who read and post. I hope this reaches a point where everyone can take something away from it. Be it a broader view of the world around us or even a reaffirmation of ones existing beliefs.


[edit on 19/9/05 by redmage]

[edit on 19/9/05 by redmage]



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 04:22 AM
link   
I started Practicing Wicca, when I was about 12. By the time I was 13 I had a strong ability of deep meditation, only problem is, I do believe I dabbled a little too young, befor eI was ready, and when I was casting spells for astral projection, and gazing mirror spells, I tapped into something that has made me VERY susceptible to alot of experiences before I should have. Funny thing, it took me a year to have the full ability to open the gates, and it took me about 7 to learn how to control them.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 11:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by denial28
Without Humans, There are no Inhumanities,
That Saying,
Without Inhumanities, there would be no humans.


Without chickens there would be no chicken fighting,
that saying,
without chicken fighting there would be no chickens.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 11:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by Ariande Tau
I believe the mind-over-matter is what applies to both. When we preform Ritual Magik it gives us a means of focusing. When you simply try to preform, it is hard to get the desired results. Ritual Magik allows us to focus on the goal. It is done in every part of life. How many basketball players have a ritual they do before a foul shot? How many theater actors have a specific ritual they do before they go on stage? I think the act of a ritual allows us to put our mind deeper into the matter we are attempting to do. It enables us to channel the energies and produce an effect.


I agree with this statement-- ritual magick, like all kinds of magic, is a means of focusing the will more intently upon the effect you wish to create.

Voodoo, Thelema, Goetia, Chaos magic, Shamanism, and Wicca all work toward more or less the same end; just like religion, there is only one mountain, but there are a lot of paths that lead to the top.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 11:54 AM
link   
I beleve that though rituals may vary, there is something inherent in the ritual that accesses other powers.

That said, a true adept (Jesus for example) could access the power without ritual and exemplifies the possibility for all of us.

Rituals are necessary for those of us who beleive we have to have them.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 02:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by thistle
Rituals are necessary for those of us who beleive we have to have them.


Couldn't have said it better myself...

[edit on 19/9/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Alright well maybe I could've....

[edit on 19/9/2005 by AkashicWanderer]



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 09:43 PM
link   
So anyone got tips for practicing or experimenting mind over matter?



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 10:41 PM
link   
Thanks again to all who've responded!

The Parallelogram
Welcome
"there is only one mountain, but there are a lot of paths that lead to the top". Eloquently put


Do you feel the need to call upon something external or do you feel it is an internal process?


denial28
Welcome to the thread.
So do you feel rituals or age/maturity had more to do with your abilities?


thistle
Welcome
Great insight, thanks for sharing. Love the tie in to christianity.

As a sidenote, I've always felt the canibalization of christ through communion was one of the stranger rituals commonly practiced today.


skyblueff0
Welcome
In response to your question; it depends on what you're wanting to do. I do know much can be accomplished through relaxation, medetation, and visualization techniques and to that I would refer you to The Parallelogram's statement that "there is only one mountain, but there are a lot of paths that lead to the top". You must figure out what works for you.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 11:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by redmage
Do you feel the need to call upon something external or do you feel it is an internal process?


I believe this depends on the individual-- if it helps a person to put their faith in an entity or concept, then by all means they should do so. It's the spirit of the thing that counts, not the semantics.

I am of the opinion that things like deities and true universal wisdom are simply beyond the ken of human languages to describe in accurate and objective terms, and far past our brains' ability to comprehend. No one system of belief will ever encapsulate these things in their pure and unabridged entirety, so it is up to us to choose the path that feels most comfortable to us.

As for myself, I do externalize my faith, but I tend to do so in an eclectic and tongue-in-cheek fashion. I go with whatever feels right at the time... right now, my religion du jour falls somewhere between taoism and Pee Wee's Playhouse.

My approach to magick works largely the same way; I pick and choose whatever works for me. Right now I'm experimenting with Austin Osman Spare's sigilization technique, combining it with Kaballic structure and imagery so I have a well-established iconographic background for the sigils I have produced. I find that looking at magick from different perspectives can be extremely enlightening, as, once again, no one system of belief will ever get everything right.



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 01:23 AM
link   
In general I lean toward the idea that "Ritual" is a tool people may use to make it easier for them to trick themselves into doing the actual "work" of the mind.

...but...

1) If I chant rythmically for ten minutes, jump up and down seven times, then spin for three minutes while visualizing light around me, and flip a light switch...guess what? The light turns on. If somebody else goes through precisely the same process, the light will probably turn on as well...but all we really had to do was flip the switch.

2) Thoughts and thoughtforms tend to "groove" like tracks in the ground. If I walk over the same path a dozen times, it becomes deeper, and more well formed. If somebody else then comes along and walks along the same path, it doesn't matter that it's their first time...the path itself has been made. Similarly, if thousands of people are performing a ritual with a similar belief, and a similar expectation, someone who performs that ritual for a first time may be able to benefit from the previous efforts of others.

3) Ritual often tends to encourage states of no-mind. Anything repetitive does. When you brush your teeth are you focusing on what you're doing? Probably not. It's a routine. It's a ritual. It's the same thing, done over and over.

3a) In this sort of mental state, it's easier to not disrupt yourself. Talk to any martial artist, athlete, or practitioner of zen. Perhaps they "visualize" at some point, perhaps they don't...but when they actually perform, they are in a state of no-mind. They are allowing themselves to act as a train along a set of pre-made tracks. The train isn't involved in any sort of decision making process regarding where it goes, it simply moves forward along the track that has already been made.

3b) This mental state is..."related" to the "female" portion of the mind. The part that does not think, or direct, or judge. but simply "does."

So...yes, there may at times be merit to ritual, but there may at times also be merit to using crutches.

At the very least, if someone insists on making use of ritual, I would at least encourage them to create their own. It will be more effective in the long run, more likely to engender personal understanding of what's going on, and less likely to result in unforeseen, and potentially extremely nasty side effects.

Remember...anyone can turn on a light switch. It requires no understanding of electronics, or circuitry, or anything else...just flipping the switch. That's fine, if all you want to do is turn on the lights in your living room. If you want to maintain a power plant, it's probably in your best interest to understand what's going on.

So, the question I would ask practitioners of "magic" would be, do you want your "magic" to be powerful enough to provide light to your living room, or powerful enough to provide power to the city?



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 12:13 PM
link   
My long term nightly ritual of alcohol, herbs and electric guitars is a rocky path to the top of the mountian and sometimes veers much to close to the precipice but at the top are the folks that matter to me. And after all it's not the final destination that matters, but the journey, that leads to the Tao or PeeWees fun house. Or as Lao Tzu [genius of the absurd] once said "exit from form."

Thanks for the image Parallelogram!



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 12:33 PM
link   
That's as good a ritual as any I've ever seen


I think I'll have some herbs right now, in fact



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 03:44 PM
link   
Redmage,

In response to your question, I do believe my abilities have increased over the years, Wicca allowed me the ritual to focus in a positive light, allowing me what I needed to move forward with the actual experiences. It is like anything, practice makes perfect If thats what you want to call it. I know I have a greater ability to reach a very deep meditation level, and it takes almost no effort to do so, I don't have to light candles, put on any music or anything, just lay down. I am also alot more susceptible to things happening, I refuse to try astral projection, because now it feels like somethings waiting to hop in my chair so to speak.
And I Like occupying my body thank you

I hope I answered your question some,
Denial



new topics

top topics



 
0

log in

join