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Based on Christian faith, would God send someone to Hell for not believing in Hell?

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posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
This is Jesus talking.
Yes it is--and in the case of the rich man/Lazarus speech--who is He speaking to?

Now the Pharisees, who love money, had been listening to all this and began to ridicule Jesus. So he said to them, ...(Luke 16:14 and then Lazarus is mentioned in verse 19)

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. Jesus spoke to everyone, except His disciples, in parables. This included both the crowds and the Pharisees. In public, Jesus only gave His teachings in parabolic form--His private revelations were given only to the disciples in private.


Matthew 13:34
Mark 4:33-34
Mark 12:12


What you are citing as 'proof' of eternal torment in a place called hell is a parable.

Disqualified as evidence for the chrisitian idea of hell.

It was told for a purpose altogether removed from being some sort of proof of a so-called fact--there is a lesson to be learned in it. And it's not the one you are presenting.




posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Jesus spoke to everyone, except His disciples, in parables.

Actually read the beginning of Luke 16, Jesus DOES speak to his disciples in parables.....


Originally posted by queenannie38
What you are citing as 'proof' of eternal torment in a place called hell is a parable.


Ok, maybe that was not such a great example, parable's do have some face value to them though. And in this particular case the text did not specify the speaking of a parable Jesus adressed the Pharisees and then told the story of Lazarus. This could very well have been true and it most likely is because only Jesus could know what had happenned in Abrahams Bosom.

How can there not be a Hell? Heaven is the oppostite of Hell. There has to be a Hell where the people who dont believe get sent. Hell has to be present to counteract Heaven.

Since you say there is no Hell does that mean there is not a devil? Certainly not. Some things are beyond our mental capacity. God being just and loving but sending people to Hell is one of them. We will never understand it but he doesnt expect, or ask us to.



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
How can there not be a Hell? Heaven is the oppostite of Hell. There has to be a Hell where the people who dont believe get sent.


Why must people who don't go to heaven be sent anywhere at all? The lake of fire imagery used in Revelation implies annihilation. In other words, if you are not saved, death is the permanent end of existence.


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Hell has to be present to counteract Heaven.


Why is god bound to your concepts?


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Since you say there is no Hell does that mean there is not a devil? Certainly not.


Where does the Bible say that the devil lives in hell? If you read Job, you'll see that 'the adversary' has direct communication with god. Could that be the case if he resided in hell? Also, if he resided in hell, how is it that he influences people on earth? Remember when Jesus was tempted by the devil in the desert? How is that possible if the devil is bound to hell? How could the devil have made Jesus a credible offer of the entire earth if the earth was not his to offer?


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Some things are beyond our mental capacity.


Why are you willing to accept that? It's easy enough to understand once you give up thinking that you have knowledge on the subject.



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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"Why must people who don't go to heaven be sent anywhere at all? The lake of fire imagery used in Revelation implies annihilation. In other words, if you are not saved, death is the permanent end of existence."


Revelation 20:10

The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (WEB)


there you go, hell exsists as sure as God exsists, the reason people go to hell is because they deny god and they dont believe in Christ. God doesnt want you to go to hell, which is why he sent his son, all you have to do is decide to follow God. The reason people go to hell even though God is loving is because they all sinned. God despises sin and shall not let sin in his presence. Yet they still did not cleanse themself by accepting his son, so they open for the devil to come in and torture them in the lake of fire(hell).



[edit on 20-9-2005 by Danie]



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by Danie
there you go, hell exsists as sure as God exsists


Exactly.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell [hades in the greek] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If the lake of fire is hell, how can hell be thrown into itself? How can death be thrown into the lake of fire if the lake of fire is not a metaphor for annihilation but rather an actual spiritual lake of fire? Death is the cessation of life, it is not something that can be thrown into a lake.

I have yet to hear a coherent answer to these questions from those who say the lake of fire is hell.



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Ok, maybe that was not such a great example, parable's do have some face value to them though.
Parables are of the highest value--but only if you understand the utility of parables. Literally interpreted they lead only to a tangle of confusion. Proven in this very thread.


And in this particular case the text did not specify the speaking of a parable Jesus adressed the Pharisees and then told the story of Lazarus. This could very well have been true and it most likely is because only Jesus could know what had happenned in Abrahams Bosom.
Not likely at all. Where, pray tell, is 'Abraham's Bosom?'

Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you realize that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"
He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be pulled up by the roots.
Leave them alone.
They are blind guides of the blind. If one blind person leads another blind person, both will fall into a ditch."

--Matthew 15:12-14 ISV

When he was alone with his followers and the twelve, they began to ask him about the parables. He said to them, "The secret about the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables
--Mark 4:10-11 ISV

Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable. This was to fulfill what was declared by the prophet when he said, "I will open my mouth to speak in parables. I will declare what has been hidden from the foundation of the world."
--Matthew 13:34-35 ISV


There is no possibility that the Lazarus parable is a fact--and the Pharisees knew it was a parable, too. The give-away is the mention of 'Abraham's Bosom.'


How can there not be a Hell? Heaven is the oppostite of Hell. There has to be a Hell where the people who dont believe get sent. Hell has to be present to counteract Heaven.
So is Jimi in hell, too?



We will never understand it but he doesnt expect, or ask us to.
Nonsense. We will never understand it if we try to reason it out from our own human perspectives--but that is why we are to seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness--in doing so, we will receive understanding, also--through His Spirit.

For nothing is hidden except for the purpose of having it revealed, and nothing is secret except for the purpose of having it come to light.
--Mark 4:22 ISV

Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except by his own inner spirit?
In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit.
Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.
We don't speak about these things in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people. A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him.
He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.
--1 Corinthians 2:11-14 ISV

Because they are united in love, I pray that their hearts may be encouraged by all the riches that come from a complete understanding of the full knowledge of Christ, who is the secret of God. In him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I say this so that no one will mislead you with nice-sounding rhetoric.
--Colossians 2:2-4 ISV

See to it that no one enslaves you through philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
--Colossians 2:8 ISV


I'm often asked if I can 'prove' these thing I say. According to the worldly standard for 'proof,' I can not. But the Spirit will prove me, to anyone who truly seeks God--because I do not say these things for any furtherance of a personal cause.

[color=#009900]Who will harm you if you are devoted to doing what is good?
But even if you should suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed.
Never be afraid of their threats, and never get upset.
Instead, exalt Christ as Lord in your hearts.
Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have.
But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak evil of your good conduct in Christ will be ashamed of slandering you.
After all, if it is the will of God, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong.
--1 Peter 3:13-17 ISV

I try my best to apply those words--and I will admit that I am often lacking on the 'respect' part--but I am not afraid and I do not get upset or offended. Frustrated--yes! A lot! But I have hope that one day that will be resolved, too. I also know my frustration comes largely from the fact that I see so much needless unhappiness, doubt, and fear in my fellow man which I know is not necessary...

I speak often against the institution of christianity for that reason--it is because of the false doctrines that are taught as 'gospel' that much damage has been done (which will be rectified one day, but still it makes me sad.)

It truly maligns God and the true source of energy which drives all of the universe (love and light) by the power of God to say that any soul was created for the purpose of ultimate destruction rather than unity and peace in Him. The doctrine of hell glorifies no one, nor does it have the result that the religious claim it to have. Just like the death penalty statistics in Texas--the highest percentage of capital punishment is the fame of my neighboring state, but if you examine the crime statistics of Texas against those of other states, there is absolutely no evidence that the consequence of being put to death for any crime committed against another human has even the least effect of deterring those crimes from happening in the first place. Proof positive that evil cannot perform justice or righteous government--only love can overcome hate, anger, and pain. That's what God is about, 100%.

[edit on 9/20/2005 by queenannie38]



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Some things are beyond our mental capacity.


Why are you willing to accept that? It's easy enough to understand once you give up thinking that you have knowledge on the subject.


Yes!! Hooray for
andham!




You have voted spamandham for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 01:37 AM
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Are you trying to knock Jimi?? Who's to say if he is in Hell or not. I dont know if he was saved, I didnt live with him. Thats an awful odd question. Besides I'd venture to say you dont even know a whole lot about Hendrix besides how he spells his first name and the instrument he plays......

In I Peter 3 you quote "Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have."

That is pertaining to the hope we have in Christ Jesus, the promise we have that makes us joint heirs with Jesus Christ--the promise that makes us Sons (and Daughters) of God. That hope is what sets us apart from the world, it is the gospel that saves souls. Jesus is what Peter is saying to give defense to not on whether there is a Hell or not.

As for things being beyond our mental capacity, why would Almighty God be able to totally fit into our tiny brains that dont even have the greatest mental capacity ever (that would be Einstein)?
Milton battled with question pertaining to God being omniscient and if he knows the sins we are going to commit when we commit them. He didnt find an answer.
Ayn Rand brought up points on humans being a volitional being with a 'tendency' to be immoral. The two cannot cooperate. This is the same thing I have found in the Bible with man having free will but at the same time having a sin nature. To have a sin nature is to have a tendency to sin, that equates to being a robot with no choice only a 'tendency'. Through human reasoning you deduce that you can have a sin nature or you can have a free will, again, Either-Or, not both. Obviously, because the Bible is true, there can be both. How, you ask? I have no idea, I might find the answer one day but for now I have to come to terms with the fact that I dont know.....yet

You asked where is Abrahams Bosom....first you have to know what it is before you should answer where it is. Abrahams Bosom is the place before the ressurrection of Christ where the people who died went till they could be judged when Jesus died and rose again. This is Biblical I dont have access to it now but If needed I can get the reference. Its awful hard to know where it is, just like its awful hard to know where heaven is....

SpamandHam,
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

God cast Lucifer and all of the angels (1/3 of heaven I believe) into Hell because they exalted their name above God's. This is somewhere in Isaiah.

The devil isnt bound to Hell he can roam where he pleases. In Job the devil himself comments abuot where he has been saying, "roaming about to and fro devouring whom ever I may devour" (paraphrase Job 1).


:originally posted by spamandham
Why is god bound to your concepts?


Why is God bound to yours??



:originally posted by spamandham
How could the devil have made Jesus a credible offer of the entire earth if the earth was not his to offer?


Thats easy, the Devil owns the world thats why. The Bible says he is the prince of the Earth.

It is very difficult to discuss metaphysics.....period. Not even the greatest philosophers in the world could come up with a concrete answer, every answer varied. This is what this discussion equates down to, metaphysics. We have it layed out before us via the Bible, that is concrete, if you dont believe it that is your personal opinion. Different strokes for different folks. Every argument you produce can be countered by someone else just like every argument I produce can be counterred as well. Only one set of opinions is right, I guess we will have to see when we die, thats when we'll know for sure.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 06:04 AM
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Saying our choosing to go to hell is likke us trying to pick a number between 1 and 100 if some1 is holding a GUN TO our head is not realy right
now to make that more true you the gun man/woman could say pick a number between 1 and 100 but you better pick 99 if you wanna get it right and live.

To be a christian means to be a follower of Jesus Christ. This means to beleive and live with your whole heart in the things he teaches. if you look in the bible HEll is mentioned all through it even after the coming of christ there for to be a true christian we have to agknowlege the teaching of Gods written word the bible and say that by default if you dont follow christ with your whole heart hell is where you'll end up
if i can help any more please e'mail i dont mind at all



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Krissy
we have to agknowlege the teaching of Gods written word the bible and say that by default if you dont follow christ with your whole heart hell is where you'll end up


I've mentioned this somewhere in another thread and didn't get an answer,if you need to follow christ or go to hell,what happens to those who have never heard of him or who lived before him? Do you get a free pass to heaven or is it straight to hell?
Also if hell is a place all us non christians will go,where is this place located?

The heaven and hell ideology is the most bitter,twisted concept imaginable.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Are you trying to knock Jimi??
I would NEVER knock Jimi. He is one of my top five. He was a musical genius and from what I've seen of any interview or footage of he, himself, talking, I believe he was truly a gentle soul full of nothing but love. I know a lot more than just that his name is James Earl Hendrix, he played a fender stratocaster strung backwards and played upside down because he was left-handed, and he was born and buried in Seattle, Washington. I know he didn't care much about money till the end--then he found out one of his managers was embezzling from him; not long after that he was dead. He didn't have to die--he did not drown on his own vomit, contrary to popular rumor, he died in a hospital emergency room and the circumstances are suspicious.

His song 'Angel' was written about his mother, who died long before he did--his step-mother is a cherokee indian, I believe. His father finally got the royalty rights of his music back from Little Richard and released some really good stuff several years back--in the way that he said Jimi wanted these things released in the first place.

Did you know there was a scrap of paper auctioned off through Sotheby's (I believe) some time back, that was written in his own hand---lyrics of 'Purple Haze' that said 'Purple haze--Jesus Saves' ? The term 'heavy metal' was coined when an early reviewer said of Hendrix that his music was like 'heavy metal falling from the sky.'

Obviously he knew something that still escapes you--Jesus does save--and already has 'saved' all of us--or at least done the work required.

A true 'genius' is not a genius because they're smart--they are genius because they have not blocked the flow of Divine creativity that courses through all of us. Anyone with a half-way open mind would recognize that Jimi was a gift from God, to encourage us and elevate our spirits through his music---no way God would punish a gentle soul like that who only gave love to others, both personally and through his music.



In I Peter 3 you quote "Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have."

That is pertaining to the hope we have in Christ Jesus, the promise we have that makes us joint heirs with Jesus Christ--the promise that makes us Sons (and Daughters) of God. That hope is what sets us apart from the world, it is the gospel that saves souls.
I know exactly what Peter is saying.


Jesus is what Peter is saying to give defense to not on whether there is a Hell or not.
Not at all. You can't make hell fit in with the truth.


As for things being beyond our mental capacity, why would Almighty God be able to totally fit into our tiny brains that dont even have the greatest mental capacity ever (that would be Einstein)?
Did you not read the verses I cited? The Holy Spirit reveals all these things to us.

Milton battled with question pertaining to God being omniscient and if he knows the sins we are going to commit when we commit them. He didnt find an answer.
Obviously he didn't ask God for help on that answer!


Ayn Rand brought up points on humans being a volitional being with a 'tendency' to be immoral. The two cannot cooperate. This is the same thing I have found in the Bible with man having free will but at the same time having a sin nature. To have a sin nature is to have a tendency to sin, that equates to being a robot with no choice only a 'tendency'.
'Morality' is something not of God, but of humans. God has no use for our confused idea of what is 'right' and 'wrong.' 'Right' is to listen to God, 'wrong' is to listen to anything else and feel it's right.



Through human reasoning you deduce that you can have a sin nature or you can have a free will, again, Either-Or, not both. Obviously, because the Bible is true, there can be both. How, you ask? I have no idea, I might find the answer one day but for now I have to come to terms with the fact that I dont know.....yet
What we currently have is not 'free will' -- it is the 'opportunity to choose.'


You asked where is Abrahams Bosom....first you have to know what it is before you should answer where it is. Abrahams Bosom is the place before the ressurrection of Christ where the people who died went till they could be judged when Jesus died and rose again. This is Biblical I dont have access to it now but If needed I can get the reference. Its awful hard to know where it is, just like its awful hard to know where heaven is....
I know what it is...I just was trying to pin you down so you would understand that it is a figurative term--a big clue that something is a parable is that it uses figurative terms.



God cast Lucifer and all of the angels (1/3 of heaven I believe) into Hell because they exalted their name above God's. This is somewhere in Isaiah.
No, God cast the devil down to earth, not hell.


The devil isnt bound to Hell he can roam where he pleases. In Job the devil himself comments abuot where he has been saying, "roaming about to and fro devouring whom ever I may devour" (paraphrase Job 1).
The devil follows God's orders directly. The devil doesn't do 'as he pleases.' Only God does.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
--Job 1:7 KJV

No 'devouring' mentioned.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
--Job 1:12 KJV

Satan was forbidden from touching Job, himself.


Thats easy, the Devil owns the world thats why. The Bible says he is the prince of the Earth.
He may be the prince of this world, but the world belongs to Christ. The 'lease' is soon done, and then it all goes back to it's rightful owner--Christ whose inheritance it is.


It is very difficult to discuss metaphysics.....period.
Not really--just hard to find someone to discuss it with.


Not even the greatest philosophers in the world could come up with a concrete answer, every answer varied.
Because they don't ask God, they ask themselves, and they ask each other.

This is what this discussion equates down to, metaphysics.

Which is the only factual source of truth.

We have it layed out before us via the Bible, that is concrete, if you dont believe it that is your personal opinion.
What spamandham has a problem with is people that don't read the bible, but act as if they are an authority on it---and the contradictions and opinions they set forth as 'biblical truths' are nonsense and contradict what the bible really says.


Every argument you produce can be countered by someone else just like every argument I produce can be counterred as well.
Not if you stick purely with scripture. You're misquoting and misunderstanding, and that's why your 'argument' falls through. It's not accurate or based solely on the bible.


Only one set of opinions is right, I guess we will have to see when we die, thats when we'll know for sure.
No set of 'opinions' is correct--opinions are not 'facts.'
That's why we need to stick to what the bible says. You're getting your own opinions confused with what the bible says.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by Krissy
if you look in the bible HEll is mentioned all through it


"Hell" is not found anywhere in the Bible in the most ancient texts. The concept of hell is not found at all in the Old Testament, and is only vaguely referenced in the New Testament via the words Hades (the Greek underworld), Tartarus, abyss, pit, and the oft misunderstood lake of fire in Revelation.

Is Abaddon/Apollyon (destruction) translated as hell in some translations?

You are reading translations influenced by Dante's "The Divine Comedy" (aka The Inferno).



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

God cast Lucifer and all of the angels (1/3 of heaven I believe) into Hell because they exalted their name above God's. This is somewhere in Isaiah.

The devil isnt bound to Hell he can roam where he pleases.


Huh? You just showed scripture that says the fallen angels are chained in hell and then concluded that Lucifer can roam where he pleases.


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal

:originally posted by spamandham
Why is god bound to your concepts?


Why is God bound to yours??


Were he to actually exist, he wouldn't be bound to either of our concepts.


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Thats easy, the Devil owns the world thats why. The Bible says he is the prince of the Earth.


Do you realize you just talked yourself out of your previously implied position that without a hell there can be no devil?


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Every argument you produce can be countered by someone else just like every argument I produce can be counterred as well.


This is what happens when people discuss things outside the domain of actual knowledge. Have you noticed that no-one disputes gravity? Why is "I don't know" so abhorrent?


Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
Only one set of opinions is right, I guess we will have to see when we die, thats when we'll know for sure.


We could both be wrong of course, but if I'm right, niether of us will ever know it.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Is Abaddon/Apollyon (destruction) translated as hell in some translations?

And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath the name Apollyon.
--Revelation 9:11

Abaddon: Of Hebrew origin (spelled the same); abstractly a 'perishing', concretely a destruction; a destroying angel.

Apollyon: a destroyer.

This is the angel of death. Exodus (12:23)



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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That is sooo cool you appreciate the 'master of the stratcaster'!! lol You like totally rock. We should discuss Hendrix sometime.....

I really dont care about this subject anymore, not because Im wrong and your right but because it doesnt matter. For all we know there could be no God, we could have evolved over a period of millions of years.
Highly unlikely but maybe.

I think regardless of what you believe, whether there is a Hell or not, whether everyone goes to heaven or just the ones that have Jesus as their saviour, you should make it your highest goal to live a happy life here.

The true happiness of a man is his highest moral purpose. Make sure you live a happy life by upholding to your values and morals through yuor virtues. This way if everything goes to Hell (no pun intended) at least your life lived on earth was a fulfilled one.

I look forward to the debate but am not trying to persuade anyone, just compare ideas and standards. Each one of us is upheld to his convictions and will probably not change them so why try anymore.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by TheEmpiricalIdeal
That is sooo cool you appreciate the 'master of the stratcaster'!! lol You like totally rock. We should discuss Hendrix sometime.....
No doubt! Maybe even a thread about his death--I definitely think it was not 'kosher.' Probably for the most part because in 1970 a black rock-n-roller guitarist was not highly esteemed by those not directly affected by his genius. Too bad. He was totally one of a kind--no one has ever come to close to his style, and never will, I am certain.



I think regardless of what you believe, whether there is a Hell or not, whether everyone goes to heaven or just the ones that have Jesus as their saviour, you should make it your highest goal to live a happy life here.

I agree--sadly, though, what I find is that often it's the idea of hell and an unfair God that keep many living in fear when they don't have to be. That's why Jesus came, Immanuel, 'God with us'--to save us all from Satan's power (like the old christmas carol says) because that power is the delusion that keeps us hostage to death. The fear of death keeps the world a place without peace for most.


The true happiness of a man is his highest moral purpose.
I truly feel that is God's priority, too--our happiness. Not like most believe, because of so many of the misconceptions promoted by christianity.


I look forward to the debate but am not trying to persuade anyone, just compare ideas and standards. Each one of us is upheld to his convictions and will probably not change them so why try anymore.
That's true! The good thing about it is, that if there is no hell (and I know there is not) then even those that believe there is will have good news at the end, just like everyone else!



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by D
Remember that Hell is eternal separation from God. Imagine a place where there is no God, a world made purely of your own doing. I reckon that as a Christian, that is hell enough.

Where do I buy a ticket for a holiday here? Sounds a great place to live.


G



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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I don't think that not believing in hell will cause you to not go to hell, as the bible clearly states numerous times that all you must do is believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he came to earth and took on a human form. That he died on a cross and rose from the dead. You simply must believe that, and confess it with you mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved.

However, I do want to understand how it is you are unsure of people being sent to hell. You have stated that you believe in God and you believe in Jesus. You understand that God is Love. Of course God is love, he loved us so much that he sent his son to die for us, so that we could be forgiven. And yes he does love everyone, and he longs for all to come be with him. However in our state of sin we are unable to be in his presence, he is too pure and holy. We would be utterly destroyed. By sending his son as the eternal sacrifice, all we have to do is believe and all are sin will be taken away before Gods sight.

This means that we can be in his presense. Hell is litererally the absense of God's presense. One way that I look at it is this: If it were posible for man to achieve on his own salvation, then sending Jesus was a complete waste. Also it would be an evil sadistic thing to put his son through, and that would make him an evil God, and as such I would not worship him. However as is evidenced throughout the Bible, history, and my personal life I know that he is not evil, and everything that he has said is true.

The old testament of full of imagery that is similar to what Christ did. One such example was back in exodus, when God in his wrath against the sins of the Israelites that were wondering the wilderness sent vipers/snakes in to kill the people. Moses repented on behalf of the people, as he was their intercesor, and God had them create a serpant like statue thing so that any who had been bitten simply had to look upon the statue and they would be healed from the venom. Some chose not to and they died. It is the same principle here.

God loves man and he would that all not perish, unfortunatley some will remain in the disbelief and as such when they die they can not be in gods presence due to their sins that still cling to them.

So I guess in answer to your question of is believing in hell itself a salvation issue in and of itself? No

However what do you believe that you are being saved from (if not hell which is separation for all eternity from God) if you believe that Jesus is your savior?



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by sinta_ilfirin
I don't think that not believing in hell will cause you to not go to hell, as the bible clearly states numerous times that all you must do is believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he came to earth and took on a human form. That he died on a cross and rose from the dead. You simply must believe that, and confess it with you mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved.


I'll try another one,posted this above but still no answers.


Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I've mentioned this somewhere in another thread and didn't get an answer,if you need to follow christ or go to hell,what happens to those who have never heard of him or who lived before him? Do you get a free pass to heaven or is it straight to hell?



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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First of all Herman, let me compliment you on your search for truth. But then, that's why we're here, isn't it? I certainly don't presume to know THE truth, but I'd like to point you in a general direction that may help you, if you're so inclined.

I have found this site - bible-truths.com... most helpful in my personal search. It answers many of the questions posed here in a non-denominational, and in my opinion, rational way. The author is just a regular guy (carpenter, I believe) who had done some serious study and is willing to share. I encourage you (and anyone else so inclined) to start with the "Lake of Fire" series. You may be surprised. If there's any "bad news" there, I'd like someone's, anyone's opinion on what that would be.

Beyond that, there is much to explore. Good luck!




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