Katrina shouldnt be a conspiracy topic

I hate to say this but there seems to be alot of separation of class in the state of Louisiana. I live in the Ohio Valley where flooding is common, but
all of us stick together. Rich,Poor,Black,White,Yellow. OOh shoot, did I say
RICH ? We don't have those here. Maybe that's why we do better when theres a crisis.....

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
I can assure you that community of New Orleans has room in their cars and SUVs to pick up the poor.

If you work for the state or the Government, you are a public servant, whether your filing documents, or a fireman, or a policeman.

Im no a hard ass. Im a nice guy. Ive been burned at the stake this year and its easy for me to get a hard edge. But those poor in those areas of Lousiana could have walked out of harms way no? Hell, I could walk out of an oncoming Volcano eruption.

Be in a position of command. Ive been there. Be in a position of power over men whose lives are in harms way. Ive been there. Talk to me later after youve been there.

Peace

First, I have been there done that. I have put my life on the line many times for the rich and the poor. And when you do that you tend to take command of the situation. So do not prejudge and say to talk to you after I have been there. You do not know me. But this is not the topic anyway.

You see it's obviouse those people didn't load the poor into thier cars, trucks, suv's otherwise all the B.S. that happened wouldn't of happened. Most people that are well off do not think or care for the less well off. They just look at them as a burden to society and treat them as such. Then you are telling these people to walk 50, 100 miles, somethimes more to get out of the way of a hurricane! Have you ever been in a hurricane? I have never been in a volcano but know a few persons who were there during mt st helens eruption. They were fishing at some lake withen 50 miles and said they did not get touched with anything. You really can't say that about a hurricane. So it seems a little easier to get out of the way of a volcano at first then a hurricane.

A hurricane is different. Somethimes up to 200 miles wide if not wider and you say these people should have walked? Where do you suggest they walk too? Keep in mind alot of these people are too old or are crippled or are lugging children with them. Sometimes it is safer to stay in a shelter.

And alot of these people did walk. They walked to the superdome and the expo center. I am sure you heard that neither of these two places could handle it. Poor plumbing, not enough food. NO AID for these people and then they flooded also. So again your argument is flawed.

And yes people that are well off do not care for the less well off. I have been there also. I was never homeless but I only made enough to keep the roof over my head. Dead of winter in central Ohio, could not afford electric, so I had no heat and could not afford food. I also have lived on the streets in New York. And in those positions you do not have the energy to walk 100 miles to get out of the way of a storm. You learn to take shelter and pray. You also learn to not rely on people better off becouse they do not care for you. Unfortunately that is the reality of most Americans.

I agree it should not be. Let the investigation happen when it's due.

NO -- everything's upside down there for now -- seems to me. Pointing fingers is not the answer for now. LATER -- DIFFERENT STORY.

Dallas

Originally posted by Dallas

I agree it should not be. Let the investigation happen when it's due.

NO -- everything's upside down there for now -- seems to me. Pointing fingers is not the answer for now. LATER -- DIFFERENT STORY.

Dallas

I sincerely hope that Katrina is not a conspiracy. However, I will not close my eyes to the events of her aftermath. Finger pointing involves generalities. I want to investigate specifics. I am not interested in blame right now. I only want the facts, I want to know the truth of why things devolved in NOLA so quickly.

Even with her many vices, NOLA was a beautiful city with many beautiful people. It saddens me to see the loss. Many people lost their homes, but this country lost a wonderful city. We should all be in mourning for her.

That does not mean that we should not investigate why this happened. To say the city was wiped out by a hurricane, is not the entire truth. This should not be a conspiracy. Let's hope that it isn't.

The Hen Says “Cluck”

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Im blown away. Katrina as a conspiracy topic? This forum is turning into a bunch of old hens with nothing better to do then bash a tough relief effort.

I resemble that remark. See for yourself...



Fig.1: Majic in recent FBI surveillance photo

No, I don't take being called a hen personally. I've been called worse things before.

Don't like the opinions other people may have about the relief efforts? No worries, feel free to share yours.

When members start knocking people for having opinions, however, that's a sign of serious conceptual problems that need to be worked out.

I'm not saying that's the case here, just that if it is, that's an issue worth looking into.

Meanwhile, I am very pleased to see my fellow members questioning what's going on here. For those of us who are Americans, I remind you that questioning our government is our duty.

I have nothing but the highest regard for those who have risked their lives and health to help their fellow human beings. Anyone who may be inclined to suggest otherwise would be well-advised not to even think about going there.

“Conspiracy Discussion? On A Conspiracy Site? No Way!”

Without diving into the specifics of the relief efforts and criticism associated with them, I just wanted to point out the irony of coming on a conspiracy site and criticizing members of a conspiracy site for discussing a current event as it relates to the interests one might expect on a conspiracy site.

Judging from the popularity of this forum, there are quite a few members of this conspiracy site who are quite happy to discuss this issue as a conspiracy topic here on this conspiracy site.

I mean come on. This is AboveTopSecret.com. Everything's a conspiracy here.

For those who may not be aware, ATS is a conspiracy site. Discussing world events from the conspiracy perspective is what we do.

If that's a problem for some members, I'm sure they will find a more welcoming environment on the many fine popular, politically-aligned discussion forums available on the Internet.

When ATSers stop clucking, that final appointment with Colonel Sanders won't be far behind.

to dallas:
the best time to investigate crime is when the trail is fresh.
to majic:
your just trying to bend us into accepting your conspiritorial agenda. soon, you will be assimilated. [in DALEK.....] EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

p.s. i predict majic will post this:
"Hey, I'm not even saying there's a conspiracy.
Most of the conspiracies I've seen floated in this forum just make me smile and shake my head."

just you wait and see.....

[edit on 18-9-2005 by billybob]

The Conspiracy Agenda

Originally posted by billybob
to majic:
your just trying to bend us into accepting your conspiritorial agenda. soon, you will be assimilated. [in DALEK.....] EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

Hey, I'm not even saying there's a conspiracy.

Most of the conspiracies I've seen floated in this forum just make me smile and shake my head.

I don't want to seem too hard on HIFIGUY, really. I do understand the sentiment. Believe me, I really do.

One of ATS's most popular threads on 9-11 is just, well... let's just say I'm with SkepticOverlord on that one. :shk:

BUT -- and this is a really big, fat BUT -- I'm glad it's there, because truly, that's what ATS is all about.

Just because some members float some crazy ideas (heck, I do -- and often, I might add) doesn't mean other members have to buy into them.

In fact, I recommend the exact opposite. I strongly encourage all ATSers to maintain a healthy skepticism about everything.

Like Ozzy says, "If you think you're right, you're wrong, and if you think you're wrong, you're right."

Mature discretion is advised on ATS, which means not jumping on every theory and believing it.

But the other side of that same coin is not dismissing ideas just because they seem crazy, because refusing to even consider theories that differ from one's own is literally just as bad as believing all of them.

Both are policies of self-deception, and both contrary to the pursuit of Denying Ignorance.

And now, back to "U.S. government-trained chupacabras chewed through the levees in New Orleans (includes shocking PHOTOS!!!!)".

Majic, I enjoy your sense of humor. I just wish more folks on this site would learn to loosen up a bit. I agree with you, we must bring eveything into the light and inspect it. When we stop questioning we lose. Deny ignorance is more than a slogan, it's a goal we should all work towards. I would much rather post a conspiracy and be proven wrong than to ignore it and find out too late that I was right.

BTW, love your Podcast!

To finish my thought on this after having browsed each and every response,
I wanted to add the following:

Katrina could have been a topic or a thread in any of the general forums.
I was taken aback that is had turned into a conspiracy HEADER so quickly.

Its getting hard for me to track friends and threads with the newer subdivision system...

Was that Katrina conspiracy on a Monday, or when I was wearing blue socks? LOL

As for walking out of town..I agree. The storm can be quite wide and quite large. But the extent of the heavy flooding that happened from the Levy...was that 200 miles inland? It truly was a shame that people left other people.

Indeed I feel bad for the poor. Yes, Ive heard and seen some press that has been so polarizing that Im waiting for a second Civil war...

America is supposed to be a " kinder gentler nation ". A phrase from George Senior that I cant agree more with. The tragedy in New Orleans, was New Orleans not helping New Orleans. That saddens me.

Peace

[edit on 19-9-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Hurricane Katrina itself is/was not a conspiracy, but the response to Katrina certainly is, and while Gov. Blanco/ Mayor Nagin clearly are guilty of gross incompetence, scapegoating them alone is purely an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. If a thorough detailed analysis of ALL the system failures is not earnestly conducted & documented, past mistakes will simply be repeated and future American lives lost.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 27, 2005 ABC News by Pierre Thomas

Michael Brown, the outgoing head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said while testifying to a House panel today that local officials were more to blame than he was for a failed relief effort in the days following Hurricane Katrina. He suggested much of the chaos in New Orleans could not have been anticipated.

But a draft of a comprehensive hurricane plan prepared for the United States government foresaw almost everything that happened in Louisiana as a result of Hurricane Katrina. While the plan never became official policy, it surely put everyone on notice at FEMA about what could happen if a big storm hit New Orleans.

Brown lays the blame at the feet of Louisiana local and state officials for being confused and inefficient as Hurricane Katrina hit.

"My biggest regret is not getting the governor [of Louisiana] and the mayor of New Orleans to sit down and iron out their differences," Brown told the panel.

But FEMA has had a catastrophic hurricane plan since January, which warns that local government would not be able to cope with a huge storm.

"The response capabilities and resources of the local jurisdiction may be insufficient and quickly overwhelmed," the document reads.

Brown said it was unclear what Louisiana officials needed.

"I could not find out who was making decisions about what needed to be done," Brown testified.

But FEMA's own plan advises the federal government that if lives are at stake, it should not wait to be asked for help.

"This may require mobilizing and deploying assets before they are requested," the plan says.

Brown blamed city and state officials for failing to evacuate nearly 100,000 New Orleans residents.

"FEMA does not evacuate," Brown told the panel.

Evacuation, under the government hurricane plan, was indeed a local function. However, the plan calls for FEMA to have a back-up plan.

It warned that, "the State of Louisiana has identified a shortage in resources required to evacuate and support shelters, including the special needs populations."

abcnews.go.com...

So it is black and white then. If as per one side of this case operations fail, it is a conspiracy, if it does not it is ????

There is no inbetween--no ineptitude by the highest order of the United States appointed to respond to emergency issues, and no possibility of race or class issue.

Witchof43 sums it up nicely.

Originally posted by MajicFor those who may not be aware, ATS is a conspiracy site. Discussing world events from the conspiracy perspective is what we do.

I recall our exchange when you ran for council. I accepted that you understood and held the stated logo: "deny ignorance" to mean balanced discourse in search of truth and not the promotion of one side over another.

If this site is intended to foster conspiracy then there is no worthwhile meaning to the deny ignorance mantra as is evidenced here:

If that's a problem for some members, I'm sure they will find a more welcoming environment on the many fine popular, politically-aligned discussion forums available on the Internet.