Katrina shouldnt be a conspiracy topic

Im blown away. Katrina as a conspiracy topic? This forum is turning into a bunch of old hens with nothing better to do then bash a tough relief effort.

Mother nature struck. People didnt plan. Engineers werent able to do the repairs they needed to the dikes. New Orleans was built in a bad spot from the start.

The relief effort is wide in scope and difficult. Weve got racism cards and class cards being played and its doing nothing but tearing this country and community of that area apart....

Gods speed to those that are helping the people of the South. The armchair quarterbacks...well, for them I apologize.

Peace

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Im blown away.
Katrina as a conspiracy topic?

Mother nature struck.
People didnt plan.

New Orleans was built in a bad spot from the start.

Peace

Living At The Edge,
? maybe the schools didn't inform the people of the history of N.O.?
(can't overlook them as part of the race & class cards being played, eh)

In 1718, when the French first settled New Orleans...

...A few even got rich.
Many others, usually poor residents, died.
They were carried away in floods. They were battered by catastrophic storms.
They were snuffed out by yellow fever epidemics, like the great scourge
of 1853 that killed nearly 10,000 people in the city.

source: slate.msn.com...

or listen here: media2.washingtonpost.com...

Conspiracy: The plotting, by two or more people, of a crime.

Criminal negligence and criminal incompetence are crimes and those are only light compared to some things that seem to have transpired around the disaster(s) following Katrina.

Intentionaly leaving people to die, intentionaly denying access or help to people or area's resulting in death, intentionaly delaying help, intentionaly blowing up levee's resulting in death, theft, looting, murder, racial bias, class bias and so on. Theres investigations in all of those and if I'm not mistaken, there are already people indited for some of these crimes (remember the couple that ran the old folks home? 2 people intentionaly leaving people behind to die)

A conspiracy doesn't need to involve the goverment. Although in this case there might be some conspiracy in the way the different levels and branches of goverment handled or misshandled this situation.

Thing is, we will most likely hear alot of conspiracy's by citizens, but if there has been any criminal negligence, incompetence or criminal actions done by the levels and branches of goverment, the higher you go, the harder it'll be to hear or know anything about it.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Im blown away. Katrina as a conspiracy topic? This forum is turning into a bunch of old hens with nothing better to do then bash a tough relief effort.

If only that analogy were true. Not to peck on anyone in particular, but I think the fox to hen ratio in this chicken-little coop is getting a little uncomfortable for my tastes and I've been crowing to the mindless sheep about that for some time now. If you or anyone else on this animal farm are truly blown away, perhaps a few things should be considered: build your own house on a better foundation, stay ever vigilant for wolves and quit being such a pig when it comes to how you'd like things run around here.

I disagree with the "shouldn't" assertion in this topic completely.

While I may not see the conspiracy of an artificially created weather storm, or an intentional widespread lack of support that some would construe as genocide, I see a number of real everyday conspiracies unfolding quickly.

The Federal Government set up specific protocols for disaster management in 2004 and failed to follow them. It now wants to cover its tracks quickly.

The incumbent POTUS has accepted responsibility for failings at the Federal level, and yet he wants to head investigations into those failings himself.

People at other levels, including the State Governor of Louisiana, have made statements accepting responsibility for some part or other. Who is responsible to ensure this doesn't happen again? Do we have a right to know, or should it be swept under the carpet?

The incumbent POTUS praised the leader of the FEMA effort for his great work, and then let his head roll.

Damage control efforts can be amongst the worst, most damaging forms of conspiracy, because they serve the needs of the criminal and the incompetent, and not the public good.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

Well, we could all bury our heads in the sand and pretend that the reason it took the government a week to provide disaster relief for Katrina victims was because of government red tape, or we can look at the facts, ask questions and come to conclusions that go beyong the excuses and discover the truth about what happened.

ABC News ran a program last night that clearly showed the mismanagement of this disaster relief. Everyone was watching the news channels and seeing the horror, while at the same time Bush was praising disaster relief efforts that weren't happening until Thursday. Ted Kopal posed the question to Brown before he left FEMA- "Don't you guys watch TV?? It's all over the news what's going on in New Orleans". Brown's excuse was that he hadn't heard anything until Wednesday. How does the rest of the country see people suffering and dying on TV and it takes a week for the government to deploy disaster relief? You can't tell me that the Chertoff, Brown, The President, and all of their staff members do not EVER watch TV, particularly CNN!

Oh, and just for fun, ask XGovGirl how disaster relief could've been provided. She's a member here who is Ex Airforce, was trained in exactly the kind of disaster recovery operation that should've happend, and even knows where and how the assets and resources would and should've been deployed, just in case anyone wants to play the "This Hurricane was a bigger disaster than anyone could've planned for" angle. You can either close your eyes and pretend that nothing really happened, or you can ask questions, dig for answers, and find the truth. I choose to find the truth.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by Mirlin11]

Any of you have store houses of disaster relief for millions of folks standing by in 4 states?

Any of you know just how broad a scope taking care of just one major city with planning the logistics. Most of you responding can barely plan for a picnic of a hundred people much less provide for millions.

When you mobilize for massive efforst with large amounts of manpower. The first thing you need to do is assess the damage and critical areas.

Somehow this has turned into a damm race and class war. The flood waters made a difficult situation for mobilization. Lets face it. When your shifting 10s of thousands of folks around and their entire neighbor hoods are underwater...what kind of aid are you looking for?

As far as disaster protocols, hurricaines are a little different then other types of disasters. Think about it for a moment. What about the local services where the policemen were turning in their badges. Since when does it require a police station to be a public servant?

This goes to show how so many are quick to point a finger in this country. Quick to blame others. I dont recall evacuation being a Government problem. I dont recall being a smart citizen and taking my family out of harms way became a Government problem. As a matter of fact, I dont recall where Government should even have to rebuilt cities. Isnt that Socialism?

Spare me on the chicken in the henhouse on this one. Are we going to have a conspiracy forum the next time the puyallup river floods up here Washington? How about them sharks off the coast of Florida...Were over fishing the oceans creating that problem. Should the shark victims be able to sue the fishermen? Man...there just comes a point where you have to say, dont put yourself in harms way.

Ill say it now. Up here in Washington, is a huge stretch of development all along the orting Valley that is the area of the mud flow for Mt Ranier.
Now when Mt Ranier blows someday...a mere 3 mile high volcano..there isnt going to be much left of anything for miles. Should the Government be pigeonholing away for all the disaster relief now, or should we realize that hey...this is a volcano, we should probably move to higher ground, and not buy a home in the mud flow path.

See how that works? Anyone reading this needs to realize the common sense aspect of this. I just fail to see where the Government is supposed to protect dumb people from dumb choices. If you ask me, its one giant Darwin award. It sounds cruel, but Im dead serious.

This forum has a place for chit chat where theyve moved some of my other posts. Katrina was a tragedy. But it wasnt any conspiracy. The conspiracy is in makine it a conspiracy. And yes.....Im laughing out loud.

Peace

You wanna get real?

If you haven't already done so, read the other threads, where members have posted detailed data on research they've done. Some of us aren't willing to accept excuses. Some of us have questions and are willing to dig for answer to find the truth. Of course, some of us aren't interested in that, and that's cool. To each his own. Talk to XGovGirl about disaster relief deployment. It's what she was trained to do in the airforce. SHE knows what it takes to provide disaster relief in a situation like Katrina. Talk to Loam about the E.P.A and the toxic flood waters in NOLA and how they can only find three pollutants when every car, house, store, dead body, gas station and more drowned in flood waters and surely seeped into the flood waters. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I look at what is happening, find inconsistencies, and ask relevent questions. Others do as well. Some do not. To each his own.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
See how that works? Anyone reading this needs to realize the common sense aspect of this. I just fail to see where the Government is supposed to protect dumb people from dumb choices. If you ask me, its one giant Darwin award. It sounds cruel, but Im dead serious.

This forum has a place for chit chat where theyve moved some of my other posts. Katrina was a tragedy. But it wasnt any conspiracy. The conspiracy is in makine it a conspiracy. And yes.....Im laughing out loud.

Peace

Me too. Because you just make perfect use of the Katrina Conspiracies Discussion forum by proposing your own Katrina conspiracy theory and still don't understand why we make and categorize forums based on popular demand. Where would you post your retaliation to popular outrage and subsequent competing theory that the Katrina victims deserved to die because (in your words) they were too dumb to live, if not here? Chit chat? Please.

I'm sure there are various sections of a library or bookstore you simply can't stand or never visit, but the most laughable thing I can imagine is publishing a title called "This section on Holistic Medicine Should Not Exist" just to get your jollies. BUT we are here for you and are all enjoying the spectacle immensely so far I'm sure. So any other private gripes and suggestions for management you'd like to publicly post in the highly popular forum that gives you such uncontrollable giggles?

HIFIGUY if you cant stand the heat get outta tha kitchen. This is a conspiracy community and events like 9/11 and Katrina are juicy fodder for the Paranoid amoung us. I(and you should) reconize that things like this is the bread and butter of a conspiraist. Don't like it? Get over it.

You comments on the "Too dumb to leave" betreys you as a social darwinist. This event is bringing you guys out of the wood work and for some reason you "people" just cannot fathom what it's like to be relegated to abject poverty, not to mention all the other people who were "Too crippled to leave and abandoned." Where do those peopel who were left behind in that Charity Hospitol and the Old Folks homes fit into your twisted sense of "survival of the fittest."? Hmm?

I can take about as much heat as you want to give. But when its riddled with opinion, and your trying to make cases of people not leaving the region when they knew there was a storm coming, Im sorry, but sometimes, people have to be accountable for their actions.

Im a reasonable man. Ive had plenty of strife hit me in my life. When rivers crest, and Volcanos rumble, I make changed. Its called being prepared.

Tell me if Im wrong. But when Hurricaine force winds hit an area, its advised that you leave. Dikes in tact or not. Sorry, but until someone walks a day in the shoes of someone who has fought natural disasters. Look at fires. Ive personally helped people leave their homes and fight range and forest fires.
Some whoppers. Even with fires, people want to come and look, and stay.'

Not smart and poor judgement. Maybe New Orleans will be a wake up call to people living in tropical storm areas that disaster can and will happen. Look at the Florida coast.

I have great sorrow for those lost there lives in the process. But they were warned. They knew a storm was brewing off the coast, and if it was me and my family, I would have been in my car and on my way until danger was gone.

So dont tell me to leave a forum. This is America. The land where we can voice our opinion. But if you decide to build your home in a flood plain, or neer a volcano, or whatever, take a little self accountability.

Mother nature is no joke. We go to work in our air condistioned cars, and we go to our homes...we live in cells. Oblivious to the real world. Wake up.
Thats all. Whether its 911, New Orleans or Mt St Helens....

Want me to predict a few more hazards?

Earthquake...Seattle and California. Are we doing anything to our freeways along Seattle waterfront? Theyve been fortified, but not rebuilt.

Earthquake Cali...we know thats coming.

Volcano...Mt Ranier

Volcano...Yellowstone.

As for floods, we know flood planes. If your in one. Get out.

And as far as tropical storm areas, when their is a storm alert that is severe..leave.

Pretty simple. People lost their lives thinking everything was cozy and fuzzy, and what you found out is that mother nature had a can of whoop ass.

So save the rhetoric for someone else. Ive got plenty of posts all over this place, some more conspiracy then others. But when I saw the katrina forum, I entered for a laugh...not for the seriousness of the topic.

No..Im not a conservative. No Im not a liberal. Im a person who thinks on his feet, recognizes that when the burner is hot on the stove, I dont put my hand on it. Call me crazy. Im not trying to sound heartless, because there were issues with getting people who were on life support out of hospitals and such. But arent those hospitals? Arent there emergency planners whose job it is to get people out? :Lets put responsibility where it should be.

And lastly, about New Orleans Police turning in their badges. Shame on you.
If I was one of those police...as a sworn public servant, I would have been there. No support or not, doing what I could in my own niche even if my own life was in trouble.

Peace

your right. it shouldn't be a conspiracy topic.
so why is it?
because of the katrina conspiracy, that's why. it is exactly the scenario detailed by nwo watchers for the last decade or more. posse commitatus suspended. second amendment revoked. fema detention camps(less than friendly by a mile). disease used as excuse for removal of rights and property. extermination of the poor.
there will always be someone who says 'you're all kooks!'.
there used to be a LOT more. now, it's just a foghorn leghorn minority.
well, i say, in true leghornese, 'you're ears are flappin', but nothin's getting in, boy'.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Any of you have store houses of disaster relief for millions of folks standing by in 4 states?

Any of you know just how broad a scope taking care of just one major city with planning the logistics. Most of you responding can barely plan for a picnic of a hundred people much less provide for millions.

When you mobilize for massive efforst with large amounts of manpower. The first thing you need to do is assess the damage and critical areas.

Wanna get real? See my thread on how CUBA handles crisis' like these. Way, way better than us I'm afraid.

Cuba, by the way has a Gross National Product of 10.6 billion as opposed to the USA's GNP of 10.4 trillion (10,400 billion) or 1000+ times the resources.

Even being generous and adjusting for the US population (300M) and the Cuban population (11M) we still have forty times the resources and do perhaps 1/10th as well at dealing with such a disaster as Katrina. So given their resources and response I conclude (somewhat arbitrarily) that Cuba is 400 times better at dealing with major disasters than the supposed mighty USA. Utterly pathetic.

So, again get real!

PS math is not my strong suit so feel free to correct!

I think this sums it up nicely

visuals are very effective and shed alot of light on the subject. After all,,,that is what we are all seeking,,,,,,Light?

My first response to Cuba is this. They live in a the tropical storm banana belt where they are common happenings. When youve been through the drill a few times, you kind of get used to it.

As for Bush. I saw Mike Moores Movie. Im someone who has read his material via Audible books..is that reading? Anyway about Bush and Septermber 11th these photos.

I was not a Bush supporter. But, after having though about his actions on this, heres my two cents.

A: He was in a classroom of children and he may have wished to be respectful.

B: A leader has people under him. Bush doesnt make all the calls. Its the generals, and commanders and consultans and staff we pay trillions of dollars for that is already in place. So to be fare, what were bushes actions after that period. Did he get his car or plane or whatever, and ask for a damage assessment? Would that have made any differecne in the classroom for him to leave minutes earlier?

The damage control and internal defense Mechanisms for war were in place.
It wasnt nuclear, it was domestic. Aint no one, no where got a force big enough to invade America. It isnt going to happen, and it didnt. He played cool, and as events turned out, it wouldnt have made one damm bit of difference if he got up out of the classroom or not. Prove me wrong.

As it turned out, New Yorks valient public servants, policeman and firefighters came to the rescue. They gave their LIVEs in the name of certain death. They came by the droves, and ran and tried and did protect the people in the eyes of death. They didnt turn in their badges.

Everytime I see those videos of the rescuers going into those buildings, it brings a tear to my eye. Thats heroism. Thats what they swore to do, and thats what they did. True public servants. God rest their Souls....

Thats what a system thats well taken care of will do. It saves lives. And New Orleans wasnt Bushes fault just as Sept 11th wasnt his fault.
But despite all that, New York came under fire for not saving everyone whichh is a joke. It was a terrorist attack for crying out loud. Thats why they call it terrorism.

Al Qaida was formed long before the Bush admin and the whole plan for Sept 11th was too. The organisations that had been in power, those 10s of thousands of policeman and detectives that go to work on your tax dollars everyday...They were here before Bush. The system was complacent. Simple as that.

What have we learned through all these conspiracy forums? Planes crashed into building..and Americas blood got shed. Katrina came to shore, and there was carnage. Now that isnt so complicated was it? After all the hype, a spade was just what it was when it started...as spade.

You see...its the conspiracy theorys that generate the traffic that keeps ATS alive. If it wasnt for paranoia and conspiracy, they wouldnt be able to generate the traffic to keep the adds paying to keep the sight running.

Now thats a conspiracy....

Peace

[edit on 17-9-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
A: He was in a classroom of children and he may have wished to be respectful.

You might wanna read over that sentence a few times. I believe the words whispered in his ear was something like "Mr. President, America has been attacked". I'm pretty sure under such circumstances, being respectful to a classroom full of 5th graders (or whatever) is going to be the last thing on your mind.

By the way, it isn't the paranoia that keeps ATS alive. It's the division. The very "black band" that has been reported on here (most notably the polarisation of the US population) is what drives this board. What drives it is you choosing to post this thread.

[edit on 17-9-2005 by cargo]

You see...its the conspiracy theorys that generate the traffic that keeps ATS alive. If it wasnt for paranoia and conspiracy, they wouldnt be able to generate the traffic to keep the adds paying to keep the sight running.

So then who are you and why are you really here?

Originally posted by Mirlin11
So then who are you and why are you really here?

I'll put my money on him being a dis-info agent. Just go back
and re-read his posts. One minute he says that the police are
not public servents, the next minute he says they are. Then he
says that those people should have not built thier houses there
or should have gotten in thier "cars to get out of harms way". What
he doesn't seem to relise is that the majority of those people were
too poor to own a house let alone build one and those same people
were also too poor to own a car.

His arguments are flawed on all levels. He speaks from the level
of middle class and above. Every example he has given, himself or
the people that he helped had the cars to leave or had help. What
he fails to relise is that these people are/were among the poorest
in the country, and could not afford the luxeries he can and speaks
of.

Then these people were abandoned, left to fend for themselves
while the middle class and rich "got out of harm's way".
I can garauntee that 95% of those people would have left if they
could. Yes thier would have been a few die hards who would have
rode out the storm but most wouldn't. This guy is probably one of
those people who think the black people were looting and the white
people were trying to survive.

Welcome to reality hifiguy, now open your eyes, not everyone can
afford the luxeries tou can.

How long does it take even the poorest of poor to get out of the city?

Disinformation man I am not.

I am..at current, a very poor man. This computer is all I have to my name, and to honest, I dont even have cash for my next meal. Granted, I went through a divorce and got nailed, but thats another tragedy in itself that I wish not to go into. I lost my business, many of my friends, and yes, even some of my community. Im a single white 40 year old man who has an open mind and Ive learned pleanty about being homeless and poverty this year.
Because I was.

So spare me the flame.

Why am I here? I happen actually to like to spend time in the religion forum.
I also spend a some time here. And yes, my slant on public safety and terrorism is community based. Everyones eyes, and everyones effort.

I can assure you that community of New Orleans has room in their cars and SUVs to pick up the poor.

If you work for the state or the Government, you are a public servant, whether your filing documents, or a fireman, or a policeman.

No my arguement is not inconsistent. Like my marriage...dont we all say for better or for worse? When you pledge, you pledge. Thats the problem in this country...Its only a plege until your lifestyle is interupted.

Do me a favor, read back on some of my older posts. Particularly the one about a new world order starts with you and me. Christian or Muslim.

Im no a hard ass. Im a nice guy. Ive been burned at the stake this year and its easy for me to get a hard edge. But those poor in those areas of Lousiana could have walked out of harms way no? Hell, I could walk out of an oncoming Volcano eruption.

And as for Bush, even if America was under attack. There isnt jack he could have done in those brief few minutes. In as much as I dont think hes a smart man, I think for the moment, given the circumstance, I would have waited also until I had new info.

Be in a position of command. Ive been there. Be in a position of power over men whose lives are in harms way. Ive been there. Talk to me later after youve been there.

Peace

I have a question about school buses just sitting there and flooded. Why couldn't those buses have been loaded up with some folks who didn't have the money to get out? Anyway...

We have hair splittingly accurate weapons technology, but it takes a week to respond to a disaster? Isn't that something to think about? Hmm.

Red tape, there should be no red tape in a disaster, you should do what you gotta do to get the people to safe ground, first and foremost. We spend piles of money on bombs, no excuses. You get in there with boats, helicopters, and whatever and get those folks to a safe area. You put out things like rubber rafts and/or supplies, for those you can't get to immediately. That's kind of the simplicity of it.

Troy

[edit on 17-9-2005 by cybertroy]