How did you arrive at this author's name? It wasn't posted on the article anywhere that I saw.

I read the whole thing and read quite a few of the links, I'm going to do some research of my own in the library later but from reading the WHOLE thing I didn't get an anti-semetic feeling from it, and he doesn't excuse Hitler's actions, he just puts forwards certain thing Hitler said and things that were happening at the time, just because he didn't include that Hitler was a racist doesn't mean that he is a Hitler apologist.
Lots of things don't make sense about the WTC attacks, the confession of OBL, the cancellation of airflights by people working in the Pentagon, Mossad claiming to know about 200 terrorists but not being able to find them, etc, things like this just don't make sense.

Why does it feel like Djarums is a Mossad agent? Heheh.

I wrote somewhere in the area of 5 pages disputing the article. The section on WW2 was just a paragraph. Whether or not he is a Hitler apologist wasn't my focus rather than his wish to blame everything from wars to his morning coffee being cold on the jews.
Perhaps you missed jews being called side-locked crazies in his article. I don't know how you could read it and not sense those feelings.

Originally posted by Ðany
… but from reading the WHOLE thing I didn't get an anti-semetic feeling from it, and he doesn't excuse Hitler's actions, he just puts forwards certain thing Hitler said and things that were happening at the time, just because he didn't include that Hitler was a racist doesn't mean that he is a Hitler apologist.

So what do you consider anti-Semitic? Does he actually have to use the work ‘kike’ and make Hitler a hero before he qualifies? Writing a 70-page document blaming Jews for everything from WWII to halitosis doesn’t meet the standard with you?

I’m curious. What would you call anti-Semitic?

Originally posted by Ðany
Why does it feel like Djarums is a Mossad agent? Heheh.

Hehe indeed.

It all depends upon how much of what this guy is saying is true. I mean if there were zionists involved then he is not being racist against Jews, but he doesnt seem to have that much evidence for alot of his points so.

What he has written is called a theory. There are lots of theories about what happened on 9/11. I've seen all of em, ranging from aliens, the devil, or god punishing greedy people, down to OBL, Saddam, Jews, Israelis, The USA itself or the NWO.

This article should be treated just the same as the rest of the theories. Nothing more. Unfortunately some people fail to see the distinction in this case and are treating a theory as reality. Oh well.

Djarums

Ergo, the suggestion for a specific ATS research team to address a number of the unanswered questions of 9/11, and deal with the matter available scientifically to support or debunk either wholistic or partial theories.

ktpr had an excellent suggestion for a topic, to do with a specific examination of the Stock Exchange and Futures Markets in the days prior.

I listed half a dozen topics also.

I am happy to be a team leader or "Scholar"-ly researcher on these when the time comes. I have not submitted a proposal to William in relation to this, because I am still on U2U hunger strike - a pointless statement of principles, and yet, I hunger more each day, with U2Us going unanswered and unsent.

Another member (besides ktpr and myself) who has expressed interest in such a thing is infinite.

Other obvious choices are Peace and Seekerof, and also yourself as an eyewitness to what occured on 9/11.




[Edited on 11-9-2003 by MaskedAvatar]

I would be more than happy to offer my help in doing some clear minded research into this.

Originally posted by Mycroft

Originally posted by Ðany
… but from reading the WHOLE thing I didn't get an anti-semetic feeling from it, and he doesn't excuse Hitler's actions, he just puts forwards certain thing Hitler said and things that were happening at the time, just because he didn't include that Hitler was a racist doesn't mean that he is a Hitler apologist.

So what do you consider anti-Semitic? Does he actually have to use the work ‘kike’ and make Hitler a hero before he qualifies? Writing a 70-page document blaming Jews for everything from WWII to halitosis doesn’t meet the standard with you?

I’m curious. What would you call anti-Semitic?

Well, think about it like this, what if he has used the IRA as an example instead? Would that have made him racist against Irish people?
I don't think Zionism is a good thing because of the things that its members have done, does that make me racist?

I can see how some poepel would get a racist view out of it..but he's talking about Zionists not all Jews, just those that feel they are supreme.

He's anti-zionist not anti-sematic (semetic?), and who wouldn't be anti-zionist except for zionists when you take a look at thier views.

But that was well worth the read.

For those that start saying about WWI and WWII and start saying "How did the Zionists start them, blah blah blah", well just look at how the Zionists could start a war today. Propaganda in the papers, Media, talk, etc. Causing opinion, etc.

Tell people something repeatedly and they will start believing it if they know no better.

My grandfather used to be in Australian League of Rights. They used to find out facts, print them, about lots of things. Al they would do would be to find facts out about things. FACTS.

Now when they started printing out FACTS about Zionist Jews, etc, the papers started getting written to and started writting about them and having a go a them and calling them racist when all they were doing were saying and discussing FACTS about Zionists.

He started getting hate mail and even threats. For what? Telling the truth.

There is more to the world than most people think.

So when i see one guy who wrote that article talk about facts about zionists and then i hear someone start calling him racist...it just pisses me off.



I think he took the WW2 thing a little easy, dismissing hitler, but the whole thing wasn't aboiut ww2, it's about 9/11.

BTW, Did anyone ever wonder why Hitler hated the Jews so much and wanted them gone? Even when at the start of his reign and throughout he was associating with some High placed Jews? or should i say Zionists? as i believe they were. Did the Jews controll the money? Why yes they did, Did they control the media until it got taken over? Why yes they did. What else oculd thye have controled? Could it have ben exactly the same situation America and alot of Western countries are in today? Zionists controlling the media, the money, businesses, banks, etc?

Why i believe so.

Maybe he was trying to take back his country from the Zionists control that they had over it.



Maybe Hitler saw what the zionists did to Germany during WW1.

???

Questions, answers, i'm probably not right on some of the things i said up there about WW2 but i think i'm damn close.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
Edmund Burke



Btw...that brings me to another theory. If FEMA takes over, that meanst hey take over the media, etc to dont they? Couldn't that then be a chance to take back the Country, America, back from Zionists hands? No more media.

[Edited on 12-9-2003 by DaRAGE]

Originally posted by Ðany
Well, think about it like this, what if he has used the IRA as an example instead? Would that have made him racist against Irish people?

If the five kids in the moving van had been Irish, and he had spun that into a complicated theory that the IRA were behind 9/11, and then went on to say that all the people with Irish ancestry in politics and the media was proof that an Irish cabal were pushing an Irish agenda, then yes, I would say he had something against Irish people.

But you're dodging my question. Let me rephrase it for you: What would you have to see before you said, Whoa, that guy is anti-Semitic!

I'm curious.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
He's anti-zionist not anti-sematic (semetic?), and who wouldn't be anti-zionist except for zionists when you take a look at thier views.

How very reasonable. Except he uses his own definition of Zionism:

In a more general sense, the term "Zionist" is also used to describe a certain element within the jewish community (not all of them!), who believe in Jewish Supremacy, thus putting their own interests ahead of those of the nation in which they reside.

Wow. Using that definition, even Zionists would be anti-Zionists.

This is a classic straw-man fallacy. For those that don’t know, that’s when you misrepresent your opposition in order to make your own thesis seem stronger than it really is. It’s a lot easier to argue against what you say someone is about than it is to argue what they’re really about.

Zionism was a movement for the creation of a national homeland for the Jewish people. Now that it’s been accomplished, Zionism is support for the continued existence of Israel. That’s all. It has nothing to do with beliefs of Jewish supremacy or divided loyalties to any nation of citizenship.

Originally posted by MycroftWow. Using that definition, even Zionists would be anti-Zionists.

This is a classic straw-man fallacy. For those that don’t know, that’s when you misrepresent your opposition in order to make your own thesis seem stronger than it really is. It’s a lot easier to argue against what you say someone is about than it is to argue what they’re really about.

Zionism was a movement for the creation of a national homeland for the Jewish people. Now that it’s been accomplished, Zionism is support for the continued existence of Israel. That’s all. It has nothing to do with beliefs of Jewish supremacy or divided loyalties to any nation of citizenship.

Zionism was indeed a movement for the creation of Israel, but only if it was in PALESTINE, where there were people already living, now that they have it there are Zionist elements who are building settlements and expanding them in the West Bank and the Gaza strip, sections of land drawn up under Armistice of 1948 for the Arabs.
Israel has already been in trouble with the UN about this.

Oh and I didn't dodge your question, what would it take for me to see him as anti-semitic? If he had said "Jewish people in general are responsible for these things" rather than" a section of extremist Jews are responsible for these things".

Hey, do you Hate Al Qaida? Do you consider yourself anti-Semitic? (Semite meaning of course the group of people who are Semetic-speaking, including the Arabs.)

Originally posted by Ðany
Zionism was indeed a movement for the creation of Israel, but only if it was in PALESTINE, where there were people already living,

Is that an important distinction?

Originally posted by Ðany
…now that they have it there are Zionist elements who are building settlements and expanding them in the West Bank and the Gaza strip, sections of land drawn up under Armistice of 1948 for the Arabs.

It was administered by Jordan, who is no longer interested in getting it back. That may have something to do with the Jordanian civil war Arafat started. Prior to ’67 it was a staging ground for frequent attacks against Israel. Prior to the war of ’67, Israel asked Jordan not to get involved, but Jordan refused and lost the West Bank as a result.

Israel builds there because Israel owns the land.

Still, sometime in the future, it could become Arab again. If the Palestinian-Arab leadership can stop plotting murder long enough to forge a peace agreement, Palestine would become the second Palestinian-Arab state, and the twenty-third Arabic state.

Originally posted by Ðany
Israel has already been in trouble with the UN about this.

Funny thing about the UN and Israel…

Originally posted by Ðany
Oh and I didn't dodge your question, what would it take for me to see him as anti-semitic? If he had said "Jewish people in general are responsible for these things" rather than" a section of extremist Jews are responsible for these things".

Jewish? Israeli? Zionist? Extremist? The funny thing is that people who make these distinctions (good Jew, bad Jew) to shield themselves from charges of racism tend to ignore these same distinctions when building conspiracy theories.

Take the Israeli kids in the moving van; what category do they fall into? We know they are Israeli, that’s what their passports said. Are they Jewish? Probably, but we don’t really know that. Not every Israeli is. Are they Zionists? Extremists? The author doesn’t know or even seem to care, that they are Israeli is enough to fit them into a conspiracy theory.

Originally posted by Ðany
Hey, do you Hate Al Qaida? Do you consider yourself anti-Semitic? (Semite meaning of course the group of people who are Semetic-speaking, including the Arabs.)

Did you know that the word awful once meant, “full of awe”? It’s correct use was more like how we use awesome today. Over time the meaning of the word has drifted to mean really bad. There are many words in the English language that are like this, where their meaning is something different than the history of the word suggests it should be. For that reason, we have to look at the usage of the word to determine its definition. Anti-Semite does not mean one who hates Arabs because that’s not how it’s used.

I don’t think anti-Semitism is a very good word. I think bigot is much more apt. Unfortunately, that word is a little too strong and tends to shut down conversation, so I use the more common anti-Semite which is understood to mean one who hates Jews.

Jewish? Israeli? Zionist? Extremist? The funny thing is that people who make these distinctions (good Jew, bad Jew) to shield themselves from charges of racism tend to ignore these same distinctions when building conspiracy theories.

Yeh but this disticntion still has to be made. Just because anti-semitism is a touchy subject doesn't mean that the extremists of the religion shouldn't be criticised/investigated for their possible wrong doings.

[Edited on 13-9-2003 by earthtone]

Originally posted by earthtone
Yeh but this disticntion still has to be made. Just because anti-semitism is a touchy subject doesn't mean that the extremists of the religion shouldn't be criticised/investigated for their possible wrong doings.

Well, for starters, extremists in Judaism tend to isolate themselves from the world. They don’t go into business or government and become policy makers. They’re the ones you see sometimes with the funny hats and foot long locks of hair dangling off the sides of their cheeks. They spend all day every day reading Torah and praying.

Second, my point was that this guy says he makes this distinction, to prove he’s not a racist, and then fails to make that distinction throughout the rest of the article. For example:

FACT: The Pentagon is under the control of a hard core Zionist named Richard Perle. The civilian Defense Policy Board actually wields more control over the military establishment than the Defense Secretary or the generals and admirals. ... The notoriously belligerent Perle, nicknamed the "The Prince of Darkness", is Chairman of the Board. 41

Perle, is Jewish, but is he Zionist? Is he an extremist Zionist? Is he being singled out because of his extremist views? Or is it because he’s Jewish? The author says he’s a hard core Zionist (Bad Jew) but his footnote doesn’t back it up. He’s not making any distinction between Zionist, Jew, or extremist.

The interesting thing here is if you check out the footnote, it doesn’t make any connection between Perle and Zionism at all. It says:

Mr. Sterner named Richard Perle, a former Reagan administration official and current chairman of the Defense Policy Board, as the most powerful advocate of this anti-Arab stance outside of government.

So criticizing Arabs makes a person a hard core Zionist? How so? How is this author making distinctions?

He’s not.

Well that's just the thing. Any employee of the United States government who happens to be a Jew is classified by this asshole as an evil zionist controlling the US government. Proof is not offered of the people he mentioned doing anything inappropriate in their positions, or showing any allegiance to a country other than our own.

Yet another example of allegations without proof. I could sit here and allege that mycroft is really a 3 headed goat from Pluto. No proof offered. But if you don't believe it you're just falling into what "they" want you to think.

[Edited on 14-9-2003 by earthtone]