NEWS: 11 Children Found Caged in Home

Originally posted by thematrix
00PS, can you stand up right in a bunkbed?

If the bunkbed's space from bottom matress to top matress is 3 1/2 feet, no I cannot.

These cages (3 1/2 feet *stacked on eachother*) are outrageously small. As I said in my first post, children deserve bedrooms, not bedcages.

The matrix, you seem like you are shouting you made the same point over and over but I don't seem to understand.

Most of us are sitting here saying this is a messed up situation and you're saying you're still on the fence not drawing conclusions.

Was it Child services problem, you say yes and I say yes too.
Was it the Foster Parents problem - I say yes, what do you say?

I am not shocked by it at all really that is one of the things soicity seems to be doing all the time. I should think there are loads of cases that do not make the news that are the same.

That said as I am from the UK that would not go down well here at all.

It was wrong of the parents involved to have caged them like that but as we all know the media tends to sensensalize the truth and make it out to be worse than it is. Maybe the kids caught up in this sad story might have been better off with the normal bedding we all had and it should have been that way but none of us knows the merits of this case and I am sure a lot of things will not ever make it into the press.

Another thing I noted here was the fact the person who orginally posted this talks about Christians being better as family's! What planet are you on I am Catholic and converted two years ago and religion would not make me a better parent in any way less than a non relgious person is. What makes good parents is how they where rasied as kids.

I have been lucky I've got a good home and a wonderful set of parents and my upbringing has been a happy one. My father who also happens to be a best mate to me has always holded the view that me and my sister are people in are own right. And also they are in no way religous like myself but they have never once had a problem with me taking the call from the church and I can't see what makes it any diffrent raising kids if your relgious or not as long as you have a sound mind and good moral standing who cares!

I am appalled with the way the 11 kids in this case have been treated but at the same token not at all supprised with it either at all it is just the way the world goes nowadays and 100's of cases which are much worse than this will never make it into the press or onto the TV. That figures .

IS

Excuse me, but I am the one who posted this story to begin with and I have made no mention of religion whatsoever, only that

God will surely expend his wrath on them 11 times over for what they have done.

And by them I mean whomever is ultimately responsible, wherever the trail may lead. You are referring to another poster, and should make that clear.

I am a christian, and a member of the holy catholic church, but that is my personal choice and has nothing to do with this story, other than the principles I believe in that make me appalled by it.

[edit on 14-9-2005 by Icarus Rising]

When I first read the article, I instantly thought of B. F. Skinner.....he was a psychologist or behaviorist and invented the "Skinner Box":

In fact, the Air-Crib, Skinner's term for his version of the baby crib, was heated, cooled, had filtered air, allowed plenty of space to walk around in, and was much like a miniature version of a modern home. It was designed to make the baby more confident, more comfortable, less sick, less prone to cry, and so on. Reportedly it had some success in these goals.

I studied him in the seventies, though I had thought he was now considered somewhat 'out of style', but perhaps this is explains what they were refering to when they mentioned in the original article that the cages were recommened:

The Gravelles have said a psychiatrist recommended they make the children sleep in the cages

While one often-repeated story claims that Skinner raised his own daughter Deborah in a Skinner box, which led to her life-long mental illness and a bitter resentment towards her father, she came forward to debunk that. ( this is also mentioned in the link above.)

This may or may not explain some of their thinking.....

I do realize that often DEFACS often messes up rather badly, and some foster families are in it only for the money....

But I also recall my father-in-law's hysteria when I wanted to use a 'leash' on my rambuncious 2 year old son to keep him from escaping my hold and bolting into traffic. ( I was almost full term with my second, could not pick him up, and was no match for him in a foot race) ....My f-i-l swore he'd never allow a grandchild of his to be 'treated like a dog'!! --never mind that getting run over in traffic would be a much worse fate---and one simple restraining strap, that went around his waist, did in no way automatically equal dog-like treatment!

....so I say, wait for the rest of the story.

Originally posted by 00PS
Was it the Foster Parents problem - I say yes, what do you say?

As I said, I really am on the fence about that untill more information is available, a picture of the rooms these kids were in would put things in perspective, that together with more information on all the living conditions and conduct of the parents in general.

Like Frayed also said, theres people putting leashes on their kids so they don't run of, tying them to their chairs to keep them at the table, locking them up in their room when they did something bad and so on.

These people could have built this system with the best of intentions to insure that these kids wouldn't hurt themselves or eachother and all the other available information points to just that.

If pictures aren't posible, there is one detail I would love to hear and thats with how many they exactly slept in 1 room. The article states that there is at least 1 room with 2 matrasses that apeared to have been slept on(other then the parents bedroom), and the 8 'cages' were in several seperate bedrooms on the 2nd floor.

So, thats 11 kids in at least 3 and probably more bedrooms.

The problem I have now is that once this news story cools down, you'll only hear about it again if the press can find more dirt on these foster parents.

If they are cleared entirely and its shown they did it with the best intentions, you won't hear a thing about it ever again. You'll definatly not hear about how childs services messed up so bad.

Wow, lots of judgement being passed here.

The way it sounds to me is the 'cages' were more like a bunkbed/crib like thing. They were clean, painted, not locked.

I think it was for their own protection. I don't think these parents were abusing these kids at all.

We'll see though.

The sad truth of this story may turn out to be these children really had, and have, nowhere else to go. An update I read this morning said it will be difficult to place these poor kids in the fostercare system.

I don't believe they even belong in fostercare to begin with. The infrastructure that used to support special-needs youth like this has fallen victim to funding cuts, and this is what has risen to take its place. There are 130 thousand children awaiting placement.

Pretty soon, we will be locking them in the attic and slipping them meals under the door, like families did with their poor unfortunates back in the old days. We have come so far since then in so many ways, yet have failed to progress in so many others.

There must be a better way of going about this! Can't a NPF or FBO step in and take up the slack?

Originally posted by thematrix

Originally posted by 00PS
Was it the Foster Parents problem - I say yes, what do you say?

As I said, I really am on the fence about that untill more information is available, a picture of the rooms these kids were in would put things in perspective,

Think, 2 cages, 3 1/2 feet tall stacked on eachother. This is what the police said. Do you need a picture? I can draw one in microsoft paint for you or give you pictures of monkeys in labcages that live in the same circumstances.

I recieved applause for my responses, maybe that's cus it's been held back because in the past I can go all out on this, and I think maybe you are trying to perpetuate conflict here.

If you think children should be stuck in cages that are 3 and a half feet tall, one on top of the other (the meaning of 'stacked', thematrix) then I have no reason to respond to you at all... Sorry for my sensitivity on the topic but I am someone who grew up in one of these homes and had a good expereince, knowing fine well I could have been unluckier. For all of you who think you don't know what you think about this situation all you have to realize is that these kids are missing out on a bed of their own and their parents tucking them in at night. Isn't that enough to say it's messed up?

Originally posted by godservant
Wow, lots of judgement being passed here.

The way it sounds to me is the 'cages' were more like a bunkbed/crib like thing. They were clean, painted, not locked.

I think it was for their own protection. I don't think these parents were abusing these kids at all.

We'll see though.

Cages are cages STACKED on eachoter! ????? Cribs? More like monkey cages. Please read the original article and respond with comments that make sense. Why would parents need protection? So they had to jail them? Why foster 11 kids if it was dangerous?

Deny Ignorance is the slogan of the board. PLease, Please try to live up to it's standard!

Originally posted by 00PS
Deny Ignorance is the slogan of the board. PLease, Please try to live up to it's standard!

Ignorance is passing judgement on what you think is facts without having even a quarter of the picture.

120cm clearing is about the same as children size stacked bunks have, I know, I got the same kind of stacked bunk in my bedroom for when my nephews stay over, put bars in front of that to be sure the kids don't fall out or get out by themselves and you have what can be called cages, on the other hand, they could be real cages built from scratch to stuff the kids in like animals.

Seeing there were alarms on them, it would bring one to think these are there for the parents to know when the kids opened them up, resulting in the likely posibility that these kids weren't locked up in these "cages" but could open them whenever they wanted, why put alarms on them if they are locked?

If you think I've been saying that I think these cages aren't cages, then read again. I said its posible that people in this thread are blowing this out of proportion without having the facts, except for having a horrific picture in the head about these cages.

I stand with what I said, I'm undecided on if the FP's are to blame untill we get some real details on these "cages". And also the global picture of how they treated these kids is whats important.

I've seen far worse and wierder then barred beds from otherwise examplary parents.

I remember a case where one of the kids bedrooms had barred windows, 4 locks on the outside of the door, no electricity on the inside of the room, padded furniture and an alarm system for only that room.
Sounds like a cage too doesn't it? A bit bigger then 3.5foot, but still a cage.

What we found out in the end was that the kid sleeping in that room was a sleepwalker that already went trough the windows(almost bleeding to death before they found him), fell of stairs, ran into the furniture so hard he had internal bleedings and so on.

These injuries were the exact reasons why an investigation was started onto these parents when the school reported it.

And ps, an applause to your applauses, it made my eyes water for a moment.

[edit on 15/9/05 by thematrix]

thematrix, sorry you feel isoleated. Sure it's great not to make up your mind, but when policeman are being quoted as speechless seeing 3 1/2 foot cages stocked on eachother to house children ages 3 to 14 then you have to imagine it's not good, without pictures.

Having bunkbeds is different. Putting bars on them with alarms is Psycho!

If you are so set on being on the fence, then so be it. If you get a wedgie, it's not my fault


peace out,

00ps

Your not the only one that got applauses for that thread, but some people, like me, don't care much about that and don't like talking or bragging about getting them. Thats where the watering eyes came in, I was laughing so hard because somehow it looked like you brought up applauses you got to prove you were right.

It kinda shows the point of what I'm trying to say, people jumping to conclusions and taking a standpoint while having only half of the facts.

If you didn't read my last reply before answering it, I AM a cop and I put away alot criminal parents, pedofiles and other types of child abusers, more then most people would be able to handle knowing to exist.

The example I gave is a very important example for this thread.

When we recieved the report about the constant injuries and bruzes this kid had, some very severe, we suspected faul play.

When we went there and saw the room with all those locks, metal bars on the inside of the windows, alarms and wallpadding, we took them in right away, without even giving them the time to explain.

Then, when everything came together, we knew these were actualy good parents with a child that had a condition that required all these precautions.

Without the whole story you shouldn't jump to conclusions and call people monsters. It got to many good people into jail leaving the real cullprits unharmed.

If that story is true, please provide some links to reports in the local press about it.

You still don't get it. 3 1/2 foot cages STACKED on eachother is no way to keep children, it's a way to keep monkeys.

Even a COP should know that.

My father came from a family of 8, they fought, they kicked the crap out of eachother, but they also got along.

NONE of them slept in cages.


PS: When you live in a house that smells like urine, the people who dwell in there usually have mental problems.

The toys in the yard was a front to make it look like they had it all.

Having alarms on the cages also raises a red flag. They were being held captive not because they were a danger to eachother but because these people have control issues.

This couple also was recieving money from the gov, and the more the *animals* /children the fatter their wallets.
Just like welfare moms who keep spitting them out... working is alot easier then taking care of many children.

buut, it wouldn't be that bad if you locked them up in cages when they came inside for the evening.


[edit on 16-9-2005 by TrueLies]

Let me get this straight;

These people foster/adopt/whatever 11 minors with "issues."

How do you handle their 11 "issues?" Easy, simply lock them up in cages unfit for animals in captivity. Freaking duh! You really couldnt figure that one out. It certainly makes cents to be. Of course, I know I am an enternet geenyes.

Now you feel so stupid because you couldnt figure that one out. You have no idea what its like to be a member of the mental eeleet.

Anyway, after I get out of detox for crack............

When you adopt kids with umm, "issues," the government throws money at you.

The money is for many reasons, but some tiny part of that is for doing a good deed ( a little micro part).

These scammers were raking it in! Kids dont cost that much to raise when you keep them locked up in a (censor) cage!

You should try it sometime. You'll see what I mean. The cost of raising the child goes down in dramatic fashion! Happy days are back again, yippee!

You dont have to worry about the kids because they are safely locked up so they dont even have room to pee on themselves. But hey, its for their own protection so its all good.

I dont understand why it takes longer then a micro second to arrest somebody for this.

The world is on crack and we are just along for the ride.

Have you caged your kids today? Hhmmm.....???????

Why dont they just take these kids (the ones under 10 anyway) to the Neverland Ranch and let them spend the night. Dont you think it would be a nice break from the cage?

How do you even qualify to be able to adopt 11 kids with "issues?" Crack. Lots and lots of crack.

From what it looks like, we are the last few people not smoking it. Whats wrong with us?

I'll take the blue pill, Morphious. In fact, can I just have the whole bottle? And psst, Morphious....You wouldnt happen to have a small cage handy, would you? I have something I need to store. Its kind of large, like a dog.

Originally posted by 00PS
If that story is true, please provide some links to reports in the local press about it.

You still don't get it. 3 1/2 foot cages STACKED on eachother is no way to keep children, it's a way to keep monkeys.

Even a COP should know that.

No, a cop learns he isn't a judge or a jury, but an investigator that needs to bring and put together all evidence and facts surrounding a case without passing judgement and jumping to conclusions.

Your innocent untill proven guilty without reasonable doubt in every western nation I know about and I prefer to keep it like that.

And guess what, civilians aren't judges or a jury either, they can be part of a jury but the guidelines surrounding being part of one are very simple, as a group, unanomously decide a verdict, without reasonable doubt, with the evidence at hand. This being AFTER the cops gathered all the posible evidence, withnesses and testimonies to be able to bring this case to trial.

I'd think everyone would at least know and understand the basic principles of the justice systems, I'm pritty sure you do know them when its you on the recieving end of an investigation.

thematrix,

I'm curious, if you are still following this thread, what the justice system thinks, and how your own views are affected, now that news has come out there was a previous report of abusive behavior toward the kids filed against the male FP by the female FP. How does that change things for you, if at all? How does law enforcement view prior complaint activity in a case like this?

Apparently, they worked out their differences and got it back together for the good of the kids (not).

I can to the extent that the belgian and US justice systems are alike(they aren't completely though).

If no conclusive explination is given for the use of the cages, resulting in there being no case at all, a previous complaint like that will be tried to be used to strengthen the case around the cages being there with bad intentions, but and a big BUT, this kind of evidence will and can only be used if it is relevant and severe enough to be of any value in court.

Then there are also a douzen of reasons why the defence can ask for this evidence to not be included in the trial. One of the reasons being that its a complaint from one FP to the other, this being bad because its only 1 of them being depicted as the bad guy. Other then that the complaint is between a married couple which doesn't help much either.
Whats also important is when this complaint was filed.

As I said many times before, its the full picture thats important and we still have no clue what these cages looked like or what has gone on with child services in this case. Overal there is just way to little info available to the public to be able to have any kind of solid opinion on this. And the information available still has things go both ways.

Its like judging a Miss competition with just 1 look at the contestants you go "hey, shes got big headlights, a nice body, looks smart, has a couple of degree's on paper and talks well, she gets my vote" for all you know she's a transexual there to make a statement.

Interesting analogy there, if somewhat offensive. I'm not sure it applies.

You are entitled to your viewpoint, which seems to be rightly withheld due to the possibilty you have become somewhat jaded and overexposed by your experiences in law enforcement. Or, possibly, your understanding of how justice works has you giving the benefit of the doubt to the subjects, not the circumstances in which the children were found.

I find this peculiar. In my experience, individuals in law enforcement always give the benefit of the doubt to the potential victim in the situation. Aren't you all sworn to protect women and children from the big bad guys? What gives?

The children are removed from these foster parents and placed into other families, so how they are doing now is the responsibility of child services, they are supposed to be safe now which is what I'm trying to say should be the focus of the further investigation. The previous fosterparents have no relation to these kids anymore and should remain flagged so they will not recieve any more foster children.

This at least untill the investigation concludes if they did anything wrong, in which case child services will have the final call to reinstate them or keep them flagged.

Now, how is what I said in my previous post offensive in even a remote way? You ask how previous complaints like this are handled in a case, I told you, it depends on the severity, context and relevancy to this case. Added to it that both the prosecution and defence lawyers can try and succeed to remove the previous complaint as evidence for a whole lot of reasons.

My focus IS on the protection of these children from the "bad guys" and what happens to these children, which rest on child services, not the foster family.
If these cages have been in use for over 3 years like one of the children testified, child services hasn't been doing their job at all. They are supposed to regularly inspect the living conditions of these children and inspect the foster parents themselves. So they are ultimatly responsible for what happend before, now and in the future.

And lawenforcement is there to protect the innocent and enforce the law. The innocent are now supposed to be protected by child services, but if child services are also the cullprits in this situation, a further investigation will make sure that the innocent are really protected.