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Originally posted by sardion2000
Did you know the Neo-Nazi party of Russia scores higher in the polls then the communist party in russia? Scary prospect imo.
Originally posted by Manincloak
That's right they do. They have piles and piles of gold.
And have you seen inside the Kremlin? The whole friggin thing is made of gold Saying Russia is poor is ridiculous. They have tonnes of money, so much infact they signed the Kyoto Protocol, unlike America
Facts about Russia:
- In the first six months of 2005, the Russian population fell by half a million;
- By the middle of this century Russia could lose up to half of its people, according to Russian government stats;
- Life expectancy for men is 56 years, the same as Bangladesh;
- Ten years ago, the life expectancy for men in Russia was 63;
- The World Health Organisation says that at a conservative estimate more than a million people will have died because of AIDS in Russia by 2020;
- Every other newborn baby is diagnosed with a disease at birth;
- There are more abortions every year in Russia than babies are born;
- Thanks to ill-health, 10 million Russians are infertile;
- A quarter of the population lives below the poverty line;
- Paradoxically, Moscow has more billionaires than any other city in the world;
- Although Russia's population is in freefall, they're still throwing people out.
Thirty thousand Meshket Turks have recently had to seek asylum in America, having been forced from their homes in the south of the country by discriminatory laws and racist attacks.
Originally posted by blackSt33L
I believe russia will have enough influence to gain these states back because many of them having nothing going for them being soverieng.
Sure the baltic states are gaining a chance to joing the EU but this wont make them much of and influence than when they were apart of the U.S.S.R(remember that by the late 19th and the start of the 20th century much of the U.S.S.R`s political control were by politicians that came from the Baltic states.)
[edit on 2-10-2005 by blackSt33L]
Originally posted by Vox Populi
check your history, look at the relationship between Europe and Russia.
Vladimir Putin spoke in measured tones Friday night about the relationship between Russia and the United States, saying there were more pluses than minuses. But he warned Washington about NATO expansion and signaled that Russia won't blindly follow the Americans into sanctions against Iran.
- Yes check the history, several attacks and serious attempts at invasion and occupation, always from western Europe to Russia in the east.
.....and what "arguing amongst ourselves" are we supposed to be doing right now anyway?
Russia might be many things but a "clear and present danger" to Europe she is not......and no mere claim to the contrary can refute that.
Originally posted by Vox Populi
Always from Western Europe? That statement is plain wrong.
1980 troops on the Polish border .
1979 Afghanistan
1968 Czeckoslovakia
1956 crush the Hungarian uprising.
1945-1990 The Soviets occupy the whole of Eastern Europe.
1940 The Soviets invade Poland, in the winter of the same year they invade Finland.
1920 The Soviets have only been around three years and they are invading Poland. Hardly surorising that the Poles are not exactly "warm" to the Russians is it?
1914 The Russians invade Germany
1850-1860 The Russians embark on a campaign of conquest in central Asia during the course of which they will slaughter millions of Tajiks Uzbeks and Azarbaijanis.
1809 The Russians invade Sweden
The invasions of Turkey by the Russians in order to extend their sphere of influence to the Medditeranean are far to numerous to mention.
Difficult to know where to start with this one, but here goes:
constitutions ....
farm subsidies.....
rebates we do not need...........
Accounts that haven't balanced in ten years TEN years!
Need I mention bendy bananas and belgian chocolates.
Have you not heard about the Russian inteferance in Ukrainian elections?
Their threats to cut off oil and gas supplies to that country and the Baltic states?
the Russian government regularly makes donations to pro-Russian/anti-EU political parties in the former Soviet Republics, something that is illegal here in the UK.
Russians are not stupid, and they seldom make the same mistake twice.
their are well aware that the defeat of the Soviet Union in the cold war was an economic and not a military defeat.
They now know that in order to dominate us, they merely have to make us dependant on them.
Originally posted by Vox Populi
In fact in the last 100 years Russia has been attacked once by the West in 1941.
I was astounded
that you chose to dismiss these tragic events from history as "border incidents." Stalin's invasion and bloody supression of the Hugarian uprising was not a "border incident."
I take tremedous issue with the way that you describe Russias brutal dominance of the former Soviet Republics as a "club." These were slave states, they never chose to join any "club"
What I do not understand is the way that you and other lefties
constantly try to justify Russias bullying attitude to their neighbours.
The entire tone of your last post reminds me of the writings of left-leaning "intellectuals" of the 40s and 50s who were constantly atempting to justify Stalin's exceses.
By the way if the people of the Ukraine and the Baltic States chose to elect pro-EU governements that is not "Western interferance" as you put it, it is called democracy.
Likewise if those governments chose to enter into trading agreements with the EU, that is not called "Western interferance" it is called the exercise of sovreign rights.
It's continuing on and off war of aggresion against Chechnya.
My personnal opinion is that this conflict will take the form of economic aggresion by Russia against the EU.
If you cannot see this then I respectfully urgen you to remove your head from the sand.
that you chose to dismiss these tragic events from history as "border incidents." Stalin's invasion and bloody supression of the Hugarian uprising was not a "border incident."
- Much of what you choose to point to were just that and those that were not I never said were,
- Reduced to lame name calling?
Please.
- What "justifying"?
When a country freely exercises it's right to leave the Russian 'club' (for want of a better handy expression) and Russia then says OK but you will lose the benefits (such as very cheap energy) and pay the same price as the western countries you find that "bullying"?
(and in any event they even agreed to a staged gas price increase with the Ukraine when it was all over)
- Well you can choose to believe it was a 'black and white' episode if you choose but from what I've read about it there was plenty of 'interference' going on on all sides.
.....and like I said (and as my link showed) they really are thinking twice about it all right now.
Likewise if those governments chose to enter into trading agreements with the EU, that is not called "Western interferance" it is called the exercise of sovreign rights.
- Of course, and we'll try get make sure they have as many elections as necessary until they come up with the right answer! :lol
Open your eyes, if the old USSR had been making 'trading agreements' with, say, Wales over the heads of the rest of the UK and the UK government there would have been uproar. Same kind of thing.
- Horrendous as Chechnya is it is symptomatic of Russia trying to hold herself together, not expansionism.
- Again I invite you to compare the sizes of each economy.
Russia compared to the total EU is no threat economically.
Originally posted by Vox Populi
Where in your previous posts did you describe Russia' wars of aggresion as anything other than border incidents?
I wouldn't call those old border disputes a threat to European peace today in the manner you seem determined to.
The rest was all totally in accordance with the various agreements that the USSR made with Britain and USA during WW2 (they'd probably claim Afghanistan was too).
They had an agreed 'sphere of influence' following the victory at the end of WW2 and the (very costly) Russian liberation of those central and eastern European territories.
This could hardly be less relevant to your claims that Russia is much of a threat to Europe today
Well if you are going to be an apologist for an aggresive expansionist regime expect to take some flack.
If you're going to be labelling anyone with a different POV to you an "apologist" and any other idiotic names then you can talk to yourself.
Enjoy. (or try again under another new name, socky)
Originally posted by Vox Populi
Well can you think of a better term than "apologist" for somebody who insisits on justifying and excusing unjustifiable and inexcusable actions.
"Apologist" is a mild term. If i felt like using intemperate langauge I could call you an "appeaser" or a "collabarator"
Besides, I don't know what you are getting your knickers in such a twist over.
After nationalizing most of the country's energy and natural resources, Putin has a new weapon to make Russia rich.
The Russians see that making money is a better business than making tanks and nukes.
Whats more troubling is what US is doing. Funding color-codes revolutions around Russia in old Soviet states in order to isolate Russia. For what reason?
Originally posted by Vox Populi
After nationalizing most of the country's energy and natural resources, Putin has a new weapon to make Russia rich.
States do not own industries to make money, that's what private individuals and companies do.
Originally posted by Vox Populi
States do not own industries to make money, that's what private individuals and companies do.
When states take over industries it is about one thing and one thing only, control.
It is about a nations right to self-determination. Those are not "old soviet states" they are independant states.
As such they have the right to determine their own internal affairs, their future, and to enter into trade alliances and treaties with other nations as their choice.
These are rights possessed by all free nations throughout the world
The Russians do not seem to see it that way, and are constantly interfering in the affairs of and intimidating the governements of their former vassals and satelites, but then this is hardly surprising.
I stand by my original point.