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Indian sub fleet capabilities multiplying!

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posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 08:28 AM
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yeah.. deny ignorance as in admit when certain things presumed on most sites might not be true..
Its not my problem that you have trouble digesting stuff as recounted by your own countrymen..
And I'm sure when you say "everyone knows..." you mean everyone who think s in the same fashion as you..
The truth is only known by the ppl serving on these boats and they only recount such to close confidantes/friends etc. etc. because you cannot very well go public with stuff like this..
Deal with it..


And cw, a time frame for the akulas is really unknown..After all as I've said before since official confimation is lacking, we can only speculate..
What we DO know(and this as recent as aug 05') is that 600 IN sailors are at Sosvny Bor training for SSN ops and this is confirmed by green world and the locals..Now they wouldbn't do that for nothing..
Esp. since as of now there are ZERO SSNs in the IN inventory, and 600 sailors can fill upto 10 SSNs..
So I'm assuming they're crews for upto 4 akulas and maybe one indigenous sub.. all probably set to sail 3 to 4 years from now..
The thing is, that its ok to go public about your SSNs when you've got few in the water already..
When you're coming out with your first lot, I suppose it'd be better to keep people guessing when these subs are coming out..
Otherwise if you set and publicise a time frame all other interested parties(including the americans) will be out in numbers in the Indian Ocean with all their latest ASW gear(ships/subs/helos/aircrft) to try and see if they can spot these SSNs.. After all there are akulas to find,and if you're getting a
definite appointment with them then why not jump at it..
You personally as a chinese must be knowing the american eagerness to get a definite acoustic singature on the Kilos..
They tried to coerce us (Indians) into fielding the kilos in a naval exercise around 3 to 4 years and we turned em' down..
Now if they're still having problems with the kilos, then an akula fora "catch"
would be a whole jackpot..


So that is why actual timeframes aren't being disclosed..And if I even found out anything here, it would be kind of unpatriotic for me to disclose "timeframes" as such..Anything else I am happy to share..

But certainly with all this recent buzz from last month about that SSN training center, it is safe to assume that work is on the way..
And the link for that is on my pilot post..Thats the real confirmation..it won't get more "official" than that..
Besides, the Indo-Russian akula talk has been on for over a year now..
This is the only recent concrete proof..and with the scorpene deal just coming through yesterday, I thought it was time to start a thread on this..
It seems that after the ripples with the gorshkov and the indigenous ADS carrier have been resolved(ADS carrier construction started a few months back,check ATS threads) the IN has directed all its efforts on these sub deals..


[edit on 13-9-2005 by Daedalus3]




posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by Daedalus3


Yea I know what cowlan meant but it isn't necessarilty true, as Mr. beeblebrox(Zaphod58) and that russian exercept I quoted have pointed out..
Even Akula I has caused problems for the LA class subs according to recounts from zaphod's mates and such things are not posted on pro-american sites like globalsecurity..
Can't refute it when you hear from "the horse's mouth" can you?


LOL, the horse mouth. Everyone posts links about how inferior the Akula II is and you dispute them. Someone says, " they know someone "
, which is probably BS anyway and you take it as fact.
As the motto here says Deny Ignorance


Its funny how you people use American links to prove stuff. Now if someone can use Russian and American links, that would say some truth. I dont believe more then half of what is written in your American links. I can post Russian links that say that Akula 2 is better then LA and Seawolf but I wont because I know better at what is bull# and what is truth. This debates should be for people that know something about this and not for people that can just find links from all American websites that put Russia as a 3rd world country.

Out,
Russian



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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Argument of something which we can provide no justifying evidence is worthless. Did any of you design Akulas I/IIs? Did any of you design Sea Wolf/Virginnias? I certainly didn't and I believe none of you did either so argument of something which we have very little understanding should stop now. Deny Ignorance, we do not know which one is better than the other, not until they actually get in combat stations and go hunting.

Daedalus, look over my post, I said 3 Akula IIs in service, not Akula, I specifically mentioned Akula IIs. Active Akulas are restricted in service to preserve their core reactor life. As many as 3 are in reserve, one possessed by the Amur shipyard.

I correct myself in the last post as I meant Akula Is were not able to compete with LA, improved LA, Virginnias and Sea Wolfs. I am reading from globalsecurity


The Project 971 is said by Russian sources to be at a distinct disadvantage in sensors, with a sonar suite that is roughly one-third as sensitive as the Los Angeles, able to track only two targets simultaneously (as opposed to the multiple target tracking capabilities of the American system).
.
Globalsecurity also quotes


Nonetheless, the American Improved Los Angeles class retained a decisive edge in silencing compared to the Akuka I. The Project 971A Akula II incorporated an improved double layer silencing system for the power train. According to Russian sources, this variant had noise emissions that were roughly the level of a basic Los Angeles and that of the Improved Los Angeles at slow speeds. At medium or high speeds the Improved Los Angeles design retains an acoustic advantage according to Russian sources.
Russia sources (the one that GS quoted said that Akula II had the acoustic signature of a LA at normal speeds and improved LA at slow speeds so using logic I assume that Virginnia class retains a big advantage in noise and Sea Wolf would have even more.



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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yes ..surprisingly gs doesn't such much about their Russian sources..besides the fact that those sources claim that american subs still retain an advantage..
I mean c'mon, we all agree that gs is not a neutral/unbiased site and in some cases I have seen them to display totally incorrect data(vis-a-vis indian tech)..
Same with FAS..

Yup.. Russia has I think 3 publicised akula IIs in services, viper,gepard and another one..
and two in the workshop..These will go to the Indians i suppose..
The Indians probably wouldn't even want to lease any akulas in service if they're keen on turning the deal into a permanent purchase..
So there's no question of the russians giving off any currently operational akulas..
Plus they(russians) have got those servodvinsks coming up.. 2 made already..
Could someone post some lcoal(russian) info on these?

[edit on 15-9-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 07:46 AM
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I believe it was mentioned in the original post about the IN ASW capaility? well , IIRC the IN are buying the R05 HMS Invincible from the UK , and that will add a considerable capaility - afterall , the main role for the UK has been ASW for the last 40 years or so , and if they option the FSR2`s as well , they will have a good BVR fighter as well.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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I am pretty sure the HMS deal has been scuttled in favour of the Gorshkov..
Also no recent news on acquiring the FSR2 harriers as the viraat is to be retired 2-4 years after the gorshkov comes in..
And the indigenous ship is supp to cater for MiG-29s and/or Naval LCAs..



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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The Indian Ocean may soon be renamed India's Ocean

Dont forget our very potent aircraft carriers as well



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 09:33 AM
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The ATV is India's indegeneous nuclear attack submarine programme and is believed to be commissioned around 2007 and 5 eventually to serve with the IN. It is possibly going to have the indigenous cruise missile system which is under development - the Sagarika and Lakshya variant. But the Sagarika's state is not clear- it could be either a SLCM or a SLBM. Range estmates vary from 250-1000 kms.

Between 1988 and 1991, India leased for three years a Soviet nuclear powered attack submarine of the 670A Skat series (CHARLIE class by NATO classification) and extensive studies have been done. Originally it was thought that ATV would be based on Charlie but now it is believed that the ATV will be based on the Severodvinsk.


In 2000, India announced new negotiations with Russia to lease a nuclear-powered attack submarine, Akula-II.


The Proto-type Testing Centre (PTC) at the Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research. Kalpakkam, will be used to test the submarine's turbines and propellers. A similar facility is operational at Vishakapatnam to test the main turbines and gear box.

The 190 MW miniature nuclear propulsion system has been tested ashore, possibly at the Kalapakkam atomic research centre. Given the degree of Russian technical assistance, the submarine could resemble the Severodvinsk Class and/or the Akula Class. Reportedly, the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons. Fabrication has already commenced at Vizag, but there are no clear indications about the state of progress due to the high secrecy surrounding the project.

Specifications

Origin: India

Type: Nuclear powered submarine

Displacement: 6,000 tons

Length: 100m (328ft)

Beam:
15m (49.2ft)

Draft:
9m (29.5ft)

Machinery: · Nuclear: 1 pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 20% enriched uranium fuel (190MW)
· 1 turbine (47,000hp/70MW)

· 1 shaft

· 1 7-bladed, high-skew propeller.


Speed (Knots): 12-15 (surfaced), 30-34 (submerged)

Range: Unlimited

Diving Depth: 300 m (984.2ft)

Complement: Undetermined

Weapon Systems: · VLS Tubes capable of firing multiple weapons

· A estimated total of 30 weapons including the complement of mines, torpedoes and missiles

· Either a submarine launched cruise missile (using vertical launch system or torpedo tubes) or a submarine launched ballistic missile for land attack

· Anti ship missiles

www.protonriver.com...

also please read >> www.indiadefence.com...
www.globalsecurity.org...
www.bharat-rakshak.com...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com...
www.bellona.no...





[edit on 17-9-2005 by Stealth Spy]

[edit on 17-9-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
I am pretty sure the HMS deal has been scuttled in favour of the Gorshkov..
Also no recent news on acquiring the FSR2 harriers as the viraat is to be retired 2-4 years after the gorshkov comes in..
And the indigenous ship is supp to cater for MiG-29s and/or Naval LCAs..


The thing is , with Vikrant allready gone , and Viraat going soon (its darn old now) that will leave NO carriers for the Indian Navy until the Vikramaditya comes online in 2010 - which leaves a hole , which Invincible could fill and soon - first as the Flag , then as the main ASW ship for the fleet (when Vikramaditya enters service) or as a second strike CBG!

Coupled with a flight of FSR 2`s and some FRS 51`s , India , could , have the Invincible next year - as Viraat is ready to go NOW - not in 5 years time!



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
Vikramaditya comes online in 2010 - which leaves a hole , which Invincible could fill and soon

no the Virkamadithya will come in mid-2007 ... and the Mig-29K's will arrive in late 2006.

Our Indegeous carrier ADS (under construction) - will arrive in 2010 - 2012 timeframe. The Naval Variant of the LCA will be ready by this time as well.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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www.globalsecurity.org...


According to there - its going to be 2010 and 2015 for those 2 carriers.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 02:04 PM
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As i said.. globalsec seems to be lacking in the preciseness ot its info at times..
especially when it comes to updating the info with relevance to current events..

The Gorshkoov is indeed set to be inducted by 2008 max (as per local sources) though the possibility of delays can never overruled..

EDIT: my apologies, it seesm here that globalsec indeed may have posted accurate time frames for the induction of these carriers..
IMO you read it wrong Harlequin..
The dates are given at intervals of 5 years and IMO the inventory is supp to be read in accordance to dates as "by 2005 the IN will have...."-
"by 2010 the IN will have..." as opposed to
"inductions only being made at multiples of 5"..2005-2010-2015 etc. etc..
It safe to conclude that the IN does not only induct vessels in years which are multiples of 5


Though global sec does indeed mention the IN to possess an invincible in 2010..
However since not a word of this was mentioned in the recent visit of Tony Blair & co. to India, I am not putting much weight in the IN actually acquiring the invnicible..

[edit on 17-9-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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You guys are joking about that picture on the first page of this thread ..aren't you ????? You know the one with the red and yellow banner on the gangway. Im looking for keel blocks underneath it?? They built a submarne that is flat on the bottom????? An attack submarine???

Ive been in drydock with alot of submarines ...they have had keel blocks right up to and often including support at the sonar domes up foreward.
Suggest some of you look at the pictures of the damaged USS San Francisco in drydock in Guam. You can see the keel blocks along the centerline right up to the missing sonar dome. Also in another view you can see the keel blocks to the left and right of the centerline for support.
I worked on the USS San Francisco when she was being built. This is how I know about the blocks in the dry dock.

The second picture of the men in the control room. This is a PR picture for public consumption. No control room or firecontol room is this neat and orderly. Not that much space available..especially on a attack boat. No way. Especially with a camera angle from the ceiling.
This is why I say..mockups. PR pictures.
One more thing. The only half way normal chairs in a control room of a submarine are the ones where the helmsmen sit. Most of the others are collapsable chairs which fold up very flat or removbale seat on a pole..or a bench on tracks. The bench serving in combination for storage and sitting.
Space is very much at a premium on any submarine.. Keep this in mind when looking at any picture of a proper submarine control room.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 08:20 AM
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You don`t suppose that platform is ABOVE teh water line , and so you can`t see the bottom of the boat??



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 08:54 AM
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Waterlines on most submarines in the water are from two thirds to four fifths up the side of the boat. This depending on when the last time was that they did a low pressure blow on the tanks. After the low pressure blow they will sit up higher ..in the water.
On 688 class boats the ones without vertical launch tomahawk sit up naturally higher in the bow and those with vertical launch tomahawk being heavier in the bow sit lower.
Nevertheless the waterlines are high up on the sides of the boats.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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your right ..it is a platform. I didnt catch it at first. I was trying to figure out what kind of equipment that was under wrap. My apologies. It looked like the bottom of the dry dock at first.
Such ceremonies here are done on the plats when they bring the boats out of the sheds or on the piers.
Also trying to figure out what the circular lines are on both sides of the bow. They are very large.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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Yeah the boat curvature ends too abruptly to even be flat at the bottom..
ITs rounded alright..

Nobody's joking over here..that pic maybe PR, maybe not..
nobody knows except those who operate THOSE class of subs..



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 04:40 AM
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There was some refrence about the ATV being captured by Google earth in Mumbai dry docks. I got all excited, but when i finally located what the were talking about, i was dissappointed, relatively speaking ofcourse. The ship turned out to be 2 Delhi class destroyers being fabricated in adjacent dry docks.

Wonder where the ATV is though...



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
www.globalsecurity.org...


According to there - its going to be 2010 and 2015 for those 2 carriers.




Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov)
Will be refitted in Russia with provision for helicopters and MiG-29K aircraft at an additional cost of around $675 to $700 million. The deal to acquire the aircraft carrier, was signed between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov and then his Indian counterpart, Defence Minister George Fernandes on 20 January 2004 in New Delhi.

The deal in addition also consists of separate contracts for new shipboard weapons and technology.

The conversion is reported to be progressing at a swift pace well ahead of the schedule.

The Russians have promised to hand over the Capital warship to the Indian Navy in late 2007.


www.indiadefence.com...



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