Court Upholds Indefinite Detention of Americans Without Charge

Hey freedom, it was a good run while it lasted.


www.post-gazette.com...

Court upholds indefinite jail with no charge

President's power to deter terrorism

Saturday, September 10, 2005

By Jerry Markon, The Washington Post



WASHINGTON -- A federal appeals court yesterday backed the president's power to indefinitely detain a U.S. citizen captured on U.S. soil without any criminal charges, holding that such authority is vital during wartime to protect the nation from terrorist attacks.

The ruling, by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, came in the case of Jose Padilla, a former gang member and U.S. citizen arrested in Chicago in 2002 and later designated an "enemy combatant" by President Bush. The government contends Padilla trained at al-Qaida camps and was planning to blow up apartment buildings in the United States.

Padilla has been held without trial in a U.S. naval brig for more than three years, and his case has ignited a fierce battle over the balance between civil liberties and the government's power to fight terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

A host of civil liberties groups and former attorney general Janet Reno weighed in on Padilla's behalf, calling his detention illegal and arguing that the president does not have unchecked power to lock up U.S. citizens indefinitely.

Well, it appears that he DOES in fact have unchecked power to lock up U.S. citizens indefinitely. That rumble you feel beneath your feet is the spinning of all the Founding Fathers in their graves.

....Avidan Cover, a senior associate at Human Rights First, said the ruling "really flies in the face of our understanding of what rights American citizens are entitled to." Opponents have warned that if not constrained by the courts, Padilla's detention could lead to the military being allowed to hold anyone who, for example, checks out what the government considers the wrong kind of reading materials from the library....

...The government originally described Padilla as plotting with al-Qaida to detonate a radioactive "dirty bomb" but has since focused on allegations that he planned to blow up apartment buildings by filling them with natural gas. Prosecutors told the 4th Circuit that he worked with such senior al Qaeda leaders as former operations chief Khalid Sheik Mohammed on that plan

Of course, none of the government's allegation have been verified, since Padilla is incommunicado, even from his lawyer.

He "planned" to do this, and he "intended" to do that. Intent is now a crime, and that intent apparently doesn't need to be proven in a public forum to land you in jail forever.

So if you get fired and your ex-boss figures you have the INTENT to do something to the company to get back at it, better start thinking about decorating a little cell in fall colors, because if you say the wrong thing or read the wrong things, you just might find yourself an imprisoned casualty of the War on Terror.

jako

So....................................

I wonder how much they can take untill the American people decide to break..

This is starting to get bad in a fast way...

I haven’t noticed any infractions on my freedom. I am as free right now as I have ever been.

You see, being a LAW ABIDING citizen of the USA pretty much guarantee’s my freedoms will remain intact. I do agree however that if I was not a law abiding citizen my freedoms could be jeopardized, as they should be of course.

Are your freedoms being infringed upon? If they are I suggest looking in the mirror to find out why...


Dont want to be detained without due process? Remain a good standing and everything will be fine. Its actually very easy.

As controversial and non-political correct as this may read to some, in my opinion, the implications of this are not good--in the sense that a Democrat President may one day use these reasonings as a way to label individuals or groups [ie: conservatives, neocons, etc.] as terrorists or having terrorist ties or connections, thus having the ability to detain them indefinately and without habeas corpus rights.

Hence....Amendment VI anyone?





seekerof

[edit on 12-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by skippytjc
You see, being a LAW ABIDING citizen of the USA pretty much guarantee’s my freedoms will remain intact.

Well let us look at the people in NO, they are law abiding citizens, protecting thier land, yet they are being foced out of thier homes at gunpoint.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Are your freedoms being infringed upon? If they are I suggest looking in the mirror to find out why...

I have pointed this out in another post.. let me just grab that up..

Rebuttal to "I just got back from a FEMA Detainment Camp

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
and yes I do believe the Constitution has something to say about what my freind above stated and what I have stated...

about this ValHall post

The US Constitution
Article the fourth [Amendment II]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The US Constitution
Article the seventh [Amendment V]

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

ya, so I see absolutely nothing at all wrong wit this..

See ya at the FEMA Centers getting gassed in the masses cause you dont redl into everything like people should on this site.

So as you see, They are messing with our rights as Americans.

Originally posted by skippytjc
Dont want to be detained without due process? Remain a good standing and everything will be fine. Its actually very easy.

Just like the old lady they ripped out of her house with force.

All her crime was is wanting to stay at her house.

So on what you said, this old lady is a terrorist.


[edit on 9/12/2005 by ThichHeaded]

Skippy:

I haven’t noticed any infractions on my freedom.

The key word there is NOTICE. You haven't NOTICED. Did you see this article before I posted it? Did you see this on the news? Did this article escape your notice?

Once you start readily noticing infractions on your freedom it is FAR too late to do anything.


Seekerof makes a good point here, too. If the War on Terror is unending, that means EVERY SINGLE ADMINISTRATION from now on will have these powers. Republican or Democratic. For your children and your children's children.

Do you have that much faith in your government that you believe that they can overcome any human bias and error and make sure that this is something that is not abused? EVER?

some of us law abiding citizens are fine until the law changes and we are not abiding any longer. My question is, what right needs to be taken away that will cause you to stand up and say enough?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what basic right they have been denied since 9/11. Anybody? Anybody?

As far as Padilla is concerned, we throw people in jail for alot less, like not paying your taxes or smoking weed, for alot longer period of time. As far as I'm concerned, he can sit their and rot until he renounces his US citizenship, at which point we can unceremoniously bounce his butt outta here. Go back to Afghanistan and read the Quran, if thats what you believe, I say.

Federal Judges are not idiots, and are as well-versed in law as anybody. This guys has had his fair share of due process, and so far the verdict seems to be universal: he's a dangerous scumbag who can't be trusted in public.

Originally posted by skippytjc
I haven’t noticed any infractions on my freedom. I am as free right now as I have ever been.
................
You see, being a LAW ABIDING citizen of the USA pretty much guarantee’s my freedoms will remain intact.

You see, that's the way it always starts. And, there are always those who say exactly what you are saying.

When Hitler demanded the Jews turn in their firearms, there were those who gladly gave them up and turned in their neighbors who did not. As long as they were law-abiding citizens...

Several weeks ago, I found out all about how safe a law-abiding citizen is on his own property, and that was with the local donut-eaters. There aren't many creatures that feel more above the constitution than the feds, so I shudder to think where all this is going to lead the nation.

If Padilla was up to no good, fine, simply present the evidence they've been collecting all these years and go for the maximum/death penalty. Even with this possible monster, law abiding US citizens need to be more concerned about the amount of TIME this individual/citizen has been detained within the US, without the right to legal counsel and a speedy trial, be it during times of war or peace - each minute going by establishing a real-time precedent that can be referenced by future powers - think about that. Just look at how swifty treasonous John Walker Lindh got put away then compare this case, it doesn't take much common sense to detect something is just not right here.

Maybe......just maybe.......Jose Padilla does not exist.

Originally posted by Pyros

As far as Padilla is concerned, we throw people in jail for alot less, like not paying your taxes or smoking weed, for alot longer period of time.

He hasn't even been charged with anything yet, has he? Or doesn't that bit matter?

As far as I'm concerned, he can sit their and rot until he renounces his US citizenship, at which point we can unceremoniously bounce his butt outta here. Go back to Afghanistan and read the Quran, if thats what you believe, I say.

Because you somehow know more about the case, and more about the man's guilt or innocence, despite him having not been charged, or convicted, of any crime?

he's a dangerous scumbag who can't be trusted in public.

Again, it'd be great if the man had been convicted of being a dangerous scumbag.

As it stands, he hasn't even been charged yet.

As far as I know Padilla hasn't been charged with anything.

You can't be held unless you've been charged. And the Constitution says you have the right to a speedy trial.

Before you know it, we'll be locking up Muslims just because they ARE Muslims...we all "know" that ALL Muslims have the INTENT of blowing us up! At least, that's what I'm getting from all this nonsense!

I don't like the Islamic religion, but that doesn't give me the right to persecute those who believe it.

You can't go around arresting people because you "think" they "might" do something bad!

Whether you are law-abiding or not is irrelevant. That is a blatent infraction on the Constitution of this country.

Saying that we are more secure when we lose freedoms is nothing more than an idiotic oxymoron.

How can you be more secure when the only truely secure thing in this country -- our freedoms -- is being taken away?

If I get picked up I'm going to settle some old scores by turning in a bunch of "law abiding" citizens that pissed me off in the past.

Think about this Skippy. You may not be as safe as you think! My neighbor across the street plays C&W way to loud just to annoy me. He's toast.

The above was fantasy but you see what I mean I'm sure.

It's not the terrorist I'm worried about now; It's overzealous law enforcers.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by whaaa]

Originally posted by skippytjc
I haven’t noticed any infractions on my freedom. I am as free right now as I have ever been.

You see, being a LAW ABIDING citizen of the USA pretty much guarantee’s my freedoms will remain intact. I do agree however that if I was not a law abiding citizen my freedoms could be jeopardized, as they should be of course.

Are your freedoms being infringed upon? If they are I suggest looking in the mirror to find out why...


Dont want to be detained without due process? Remain a good standing and everything will be fine. Its actually very easy.

Shouldn't you be somewhere in the 1930's nazi germany?

All members safely reside behind the security of their computer monitors (and a few blankets to be sure ), and no one is doing any time travelling in this forum, we have other ones for that...

Anyone who cannot stay on topic, will join me in finding out what all the shiny buttons they gave me do... I don't know yet... And I'd rather not find out.

Civil, intelligent discussion that is WOT oriented is most appreciated.

Thanks.

isn't it the beauty of america, that no matter how bent a person is on destruction, we will treat them as equal as anyone else on any crime (except if it's corporate :lol even if the crime is based on destroying the very well core of what this country was based upon?

many people would say that's an exploit in our hand and it's obviously trying to be patched with these rulings but with these rulings the 'terrorists' are winning. hate hearing that line, let alone saying it, but it's holds true.

we are gradually giving up rights for the comfort of false security which we have seen doesn't take a terrorist to destroy, just poor decision making (for a better choice of words) has dealt a devastating blow to this nation. so imagine if we continue down this path. like TC stated, national disarming. neighbors snitching on neighbors for their own prideful intent. just imagine what kind of times we will be living in.

so many quotes to quote on the destructive path we are on, best one to tie it in is 'those who don't learn from the past, are bound to repeat it' and it sure seems like we are up for some sequels that will rival george lucas's best works.

The ignorance from Americans defending this is kind of astounding.

This is putting at risk three of the fundamental principles of American jurisprudence. Habeas corpus, due process and "the presumption of innocence". That means that now ANY President has the absolute authority to imprison American citizens without charge, on US ground, and the accused has NO legal means to defend his possible innocence, or to challenge the terms of the detention.

It's the end of The Bill of Rights, the end of "these rights we hold to be self-evident", and the beginning of the end of your personal liberties. The even more shocking thing is that the term "terrorist" is still pretty loosely defined, so you may be charged with terrorism for something different and poof you are gone.

I would be writing my congressman if I was a Yank, I tell ya.



jako




[edit on 12-9-2005 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by skippytjc
I haven’t noticed any infractions on my freedom. I am as free right now as I have ever been.

You see, being a LAW ABIDING citizen of the USA pretty much guarantee’s my freedoms will remain intact. I do agree however that if I was not a law abiding citizen my freedoms could be jeopardized, as they should be of course.

Are your freedoms being infringed upon? If they are I suggest looking in the mirror to find out why...


Dont want to be detained without due process? Remain a good standing and everything will be fine. Its actually very easy.

Breaking the law does not invalidate your right to due process however, which is what Mr. Padilla has been denied. I'm not blaming any particular party, agenda, or organization for this. I'm merely saying that this is the case, regardless of who or what is at fault. This sets a precedent which could justify the removal of due process in future similar cases, and the powers granted to the President currently are not contingent upon terrorism, but rather, the present state of war.