Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

Originally posted by The Axeman
Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with this; just pointing it out:

*Blasphemy alert*

(sorry I couldn’t help it.

)

I'd not seen this spin technique before. Curious...

Originally posted by The Axeman
There are those who would argue that the God of the Old Testament is not the Father, the God who sent Jesus to save us; rather that The Father sent Jesus to save us from the God of the Old Testament.

The New Testament explains this, not sure why you want me to, but God remained the same. The covenant is what had changed. *pssst! We kept breaking the old ones *

Originally posted by The Axeman
Now, what might be blasphemy to you could be gospel Truth to another; and I must say that, while I am not Gnostic, their theology is indeed very interesting. It leaves altogether fewer inconsistencies and things that make you go “Hmmmmm...” than trying to reconcile the Old and New Testaments’ many contradictions.

So no address for MY reference? Or are we just turning on me now for justification for my thinking?

Originally posted by The Axeman
To me, it’s a matter of personal faith; but still, to be able to explain some of those contradictions would be nice.

I'd be happy to discuss any "contradiction" but what it has to do with this thread I have no idea. If you like, I can link a boat-load of other Anti-Christian threads that have prevailed in the "Conspiracies in Religion" section since the catagory began. In fact, you'll probably see me sitting in the cafe' there already.

Originally posted by The Axeman
So... I'm curious... Do you sacrifice animals?

Exodus 29:38 "This is what you are to offer on the altar regularly each day: two lambs a year old. 39 Offer one in the morning and the other at twilight. 40 With the first lamb offer a tenth of an ephah [c] of fine flour mixed with a quarter of a hin [d] of oil from pressed olives, and a quarter of a hin of wine as a drink offering. 41 Sacrifice the other lamb at twilight with the same grain offering and its drink offering as in the morning—a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.

42 "For the generations to come this burnt offering is to be made regularly at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting before the LORD. There I will meet you and speak to you; 43 there also I will meet with the Israelites, and the place will be consecrated by my glory.

...because God says you should every day... "for the generations to come this burnt offering is to be made regularly..."

[edit on 9/23/05 by The Axeman]

The final sacrifice has been paid in full. Accept it or do not accept it, that's the covenant. Or was this question for someone of the Orthodox Jewish faith?

Thanks for asking me to address, I'm honored to be considered worth listening to, or at least piquing a curiousity.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

"saint4God"


Maybe you already answered this somewhere, and I missed it.


Do you believe "The Bible" to be the literal "word of God"?

And if not; how do you know which verses, teachings, stories, etc. are symbolic and which ones are literal?

Originally posted by Tamahu
"saint4God"

Peace Tamahu . I miss that greeting. Even if you called me an ugly savage pig-dog, I'd still smile at least for that one word. Doh! I'm in quotes! Does that mean you're going to call me an ugly savage pig-dog?

Originally posted by Tamahu
Maybe you already answered this somewhere, and I missed it.


Do you believe "The Bible" to be the literal "word of God"?

I believe...

Originally posted by Tamahu
And if not; how do you know which verses, teachings, stories, etc. are symbolic and which ones are literal?

Hey! you sprung the trap before I could walk into it. That ain't right. At least lure me in first before dropping the hammer.

Are we still talking about Lucifer's relationship (if any) to Masonry?

I make live appearances on threads like these that practically beg for this nature of inquiry and is related to the subject heading...

The Absolute Power of Christianity

The Anti-Christian Conspiracy

God Doesn't exist

Bible Contradictions & a mystery

...and much much more!

Disclaimer: Send no money, heaven is a free gift. All content Biblically quoted is property of God almighty, who's son died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and purchase a place for us in heaven IF we choose to believe as he stated in John 3:16. The one posting this message is in fact a messager, therefore any opinions about life, the universe, and everything separate from God's Word is not relevant to the terms and conditions of eternal life set forth by God.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

I'm not here to set traps.

Just asking questions, so all can possibly benefit from these discussions.

The screen-name you've chosen is a pretty heafty one; hence the quotes(Saint is synonymous with the Bodhisattva of Buddhism, which is a very honorable title; and anybody who is not one, could doubtfully comprehend the sacrifice required to earn it).

I'm not saying that you're not a saint for God(for all I know you could be); but at the same time, by reading some of your posts, makes me want to question that.


Regarding those threads you posted; I'll do the knowledge, as to get an answer to the question from my last post.



PEACE

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by AngelWitch
I know in my community, the local Baptist church is a primary sponsor of the local BSA Cub Scout pack
but going by Saint4Gods statements, wouldn't this be "being yoked with unbelievers"?

The Boy Scouts did not claim to help anyone on their spiritual jouney, to take an oath to each other, be "the light", etc. I'm not justifying the Boy Scouts because personally I think there are more beneficial organizations to join.

I respect your opinion, though I disagree. Having been the recipient of the three craft lodge degrees, and witness to the ceremonies of the BSA they are remarkably similar in message, though obviously very abbreviated for the BSA. Obviously I'm NOT saying that they are the same, but VERY similar in message and nature.

In regard to Masonry, the candidate is told that the obligation doesn't contain anything that would interfere with their duties to society, god or family; and even if it did, there's nothing stopping the candidate from walking out. We don't want anyone who doesn't want to be there, either through trickery or otherwise.

Masonry doesn't tell me who G-d is, nor does it try to impose any system of belief. Instead I am encouraged to further my studies with respect to faith, science, and the arts. The Middle Chamber lecture is a perfect example of this.

Never am i told what to think, feel, believe or do; Instead I am referred to the book of sacred law, of which I hold dear. I am never asked to accept without judgment. My obligation does not extend to everyone and includes "I finding them worthy"; therefore I am never asked or required to accept blindly the actions of a brother behaving in an immoral fashion.

I do have to agree with you on one point, you cannot be a Freemason and should not be accepted if you were to petition. Not because you're not worthy or believe so strongly, but rather because you wouldn't understand what you were entering into. In all honesty, such a stong belief , moral character and questioning nature are exactly what makes a good Mason.

Though this is my own opinion....

Another post that really bugged me,alluded to Masonry being knowledge without G-d. I will argue the opposite; Masonry shows that there is no light without faith; and that science without G-d is only a half-truth.

One prerequisite of becoming a freemason is a belief in a supreme being. If one is an honest atheist, he is not allowed to join, as was the case with my father. He could not truthfully say he was a believer, and therefore could not join.

Why can't an atheist join Masonry? I thought an atheist is a good person who just simply is unaware of his own true nature? Should churches also turn away atheists?

Concerning Lucifer and Satan:

Lucifer is a God, he is an archangel. But his reflection into these worlds is that of Shameal. Shameal will appear evil or antagonistic to those who have not yet destroyed the egoism. That's what Manly P Hall meant when he referred to "the power of Lucifer will be in your grasps".

But what concerns me most is that the difference between a Saint and a Sadist is that both think they are Gods, but only the Saint acts like one. The Saint has destroyed the egoism, whereas the Sadist endulges in the passions of the egoism. yet they both use similar symbology and the Sadist could convince stupid people to be Gods like they are.

Originally posted by realrepublican
Why can't an atheist join Masonry? I thought an atheist is a good person who just simply is unaware of his own true nature? Should churches also turn away atheists?

We're NOT a church, and as a requirement to join our fraternity one must have a belief in a supreme being. Therefore an athiest may not join, no matter how good their character.

EDIT: Corrected spelling. Also seems we should get back on topic.

[edit on 24-9-2005 by AngelWitch]

We're NOT a church, and as a requirement to join our fraternity one must have a belief in a supreme being. Therefore an athiest may not join, no matter how good their character.

You don't say, eh? So are you telling me that someone who believes in the God Lilithil, who is one of the fallen One's (covered in seven veils of darkness), could pass as a Mason? Do Masons even care if it were a demon God?

So an atheist who has much love in his heart cannot join, over a wicked, egoistic loser?

To bad an atheist is not allowed to join - since Masonry is supposedly not EVEN a faith.

Please explain?

[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

Originally posted by realrepublican
who is one of the fallen One's (covered in seven veils of darkness), could pass as a Mason?

You must beleive in a supreme being to become a mason, not worship one particular non-supreme demigod to the exlusion of others. From what I gather, the reasoning for requireing worship of a supreme being (whichpractically by definition is the limitless allpowerful creator of the universe) is because the masonic teachings, which are concerned with self-improvment and becomming a good moral person, use a person's beleif in god to accomplish this. IE, there might be a particular moral tale that the members play-act, and the moral of the stoary will be that the creator wants everyone to be goodly and charitable to one another. Then for the buddhist, the jew, the christian, the wiccan, the Zeus worshipper, the zoroasterian, even the hindu, its their all powerful god that is urging them to do this. This means, of course, that a satanist could join freemasonry, sure, but if they aren't concerned with becomming a more moral and kinder person, than they'd loose interest as they found out that thats what masonry is all about. And if their beleif in a supreme being makes it out to be a wicked, evil, immoral 'super god' or whatever, then the lessons of masonry wouldn't make sense to them and they'd drop out too.

since Masonry is supposedly not EVEN a faith.

Anyone can join AA, but AA gets you off the booze by appealing to your faith and prayer. A commited atheist wouldn't be able (more or less) to do that, just like a commited atheist wouldn't be able to say 'the lord is a moral lord, and thus man should be moral'. Of course, atheists have other rational reasons for being moral, its just that you can't appeal to those rational reasons via the masonic method, which apparently is discussion of symbols and, importantly, acting out moral tales.

Masonry is secular, not atheistic.

Should churches also turn away atheists?

Of course they should. Why would a church accept an atheist? A church might say 'sure mr atheist, you can come to our meetings and hopefully you will learn about god and accept him' but they aren't going to say that he is a christian, or jew, etc etc.

\I thought an atheist is a good person who just simply is unaware of his own true nature

An atheist is one who does not beleive in any god. Has nothing to do with that other stuff you mention.

Of course they should. Why would a church accept an atheist? A church might say 'sure mr atheist, you can come to our meetings and hopefully you will learn about god and accept him' but they aren't going to say that he is a christian, or jew, etc etc.

They should send them away?

And who needs your love more, your brother Mason, or a misguided Atheist? There is no such thing as a true atheist. An atheist is merely someone who is decieving themselves.

Does Masonry stress the dangers of the egoism - is overcoming that real devil not just as important as saying " let me become a Mason, teach me something of power, so that I may decide what I think is best for my fellow man? Can not one man's angelic thought, become the other mans tormentor, without first destroying the egoism?





[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

Originally posted by realrepublican
They should send them away?

Again, since when do, say, baptists recognize atheists as baptists??? Is the organization of American Atheists a Lutheran organization?? Clearly not. Churches accept atheists only in the hope of converting them, not to say that they are welcome and should remain atheist.

And who needs your love more, your brother Mason, or a misguided Atheist?

This doesn't make sense. If the atheist was brought into masonry, then they are suddenly undeserving? Masonry teaches moral lessons by appealing to a person's personal god. You cannot appeal to a beleif that a person does not hold.

There is no such thing as a true atheist. An atheist is merely someone who is decieving themselves.

Does Masonry stress the dangers of the egoism

On this I have no information, I am not a mason.

However, given that masonry requires actual beleif in a supreme (and therefore superior) being, de facto] mason's have to have a certain degree of humility, at least before god, and that is all that, say, a church can get out of suppression of the ego also.


Also it should be noted that the most popular form of masonry in the english speaking countries, Regular Masonry, which is what we normally think of when thinking of freemasons, requires beleif in a supreme being, while irregular masonry has its own set of requirements. There are, for example, apparently Regular Masonic Lodges that have been dislodged of their status as "Regular" for admitting atheists into the group.

Again, since when do, say, baptists recognize atheists as baptists??? Is the organization of American Atheists a Lutheran organization?? Clearly not. Churches accept atheists only in the hope of converting them, not to say that they are welcome and should remain atheist.

I appreciate what you're saying here. I find one problem with many religions is that they are trying to "convert" someone. It often sounds silly, since we are not becoming anything which we are not already. All we need to do is stip away something - and that leads us to self-realization.

Does Masonry stress the dangers of the egoism

On this I have no information, I am not a mason.

I am primarily concerned with this part ONLY. At times, I have a hard time dealing with my own I'd rather hope that Masonry is not going to be the major breeding ground for black Magicians

Peace realrepublican

Does Masonry stress the dangers of the egoism

On this I have no information, I am not a mason.

Originally posted by realrepublican
I am primarily concerned with this part ONLY. At times, I have a hard time dealing with my own

I'd rather hope that Masonry is not going to be the major breeding ground for black Magicians

It's funny that you would mention this.

Gnostic Glossary

Black Lodge The diabolic intelligence which seeks to pull souls into attachment to desire-sensation and the awakening of the consciousness that is trapped within the ego.

Excerpted from The Perfect Matrimony: "From the dawn of life, a great battle has raged between the powers of Light and the powers of Darkness. The secret root of that battle lies in sex. Gods and Demons live in eternal struggle. The Gods defend the doctrine of chastity. The Demons hate chastity. In sex is found the root of the conflict between Gods and Demons... There are Masters of the Great White Lodge. There are Masters of the Great Black Lodge. There are disciples of the Great White Lodge. There are disciples of the Great Black Lodge. The disciples of the Great White Lodge know how to move consciously and positively in the Astral Body. The disciples of the Great Black Lodge also know how to travel in the Astral Body... The White Magician worships the inner Christ. The Black Magician worships Satan. This is the “I,” the me, myself, the reincarnating ego. In fact, the “I” is the specter of the threshold itself. It continually reincarnates to satisfy desires. The “I” is memory. In the “I” are all the memories of our ancient personalities. The “I” is Ahriman, Lucifer(ed. notes: the negative aspect of Lucifer that is), Satan."

IMO, FreeMasonry could be a breeding ground for both "Black Magicians"(Ten Percenters) and "White Magicians"(Five Percenters).

And maybe even a whole lot of Eighty-Five Percenters("Gray Magicians"?).

Originally posted by realrepublican
I am primarily concerned with this part ONLY. At times, I have a hard time dealing with my own

I'd rather hope that Masonry is not going to be the major breeding ground for black Magicians

Woah there....I think you need to get a better grasp on what Freemasonry is and what it involves....Your last sentence show's that you are very misinformed what Mainstream/Regular/Blue Lodge Masonry is all about.

I cannot speak for irregular/clandestine masonic organizations who claim to be masonic (but aren't)....but we do not practice any black magic or anything of the like....

I would suggest reading a couple legitmate Masonry sites and then ask your questions....I say this not to be rude....but obviously you've picked up alot of misinformation along the way.....

Try these for starters....

www.masonicdictionary.com...
www.masonicinfo.com...
web.mit.edu...

There are many more out there....but these should give you a good basic understanding.....

Woah there....I think you need to get a better grasp on what Freemasonry is and what it involves....Your last sentence show's that you are very misinformed what Mainstream/Regular/Blue Lodge Masonry is all about.

I cannot speak for irregular/clandestine masonic organizations who claim to be masonic (but aren't)....but we do not practice any black magic or anything of the like....

I would suggest reading a couple legitmate Masonry sites and then ask your questions....I say this not to be rude....but obviously you've picked up alot of misinformation along the way.....

Try these for starters....

www.masonicdictionary.com...
www.masonicinfo.com...
web.mit.edu...

There are many more out there....but these should give you a good basic understanding

Thanks, I was offering a little comedy but in truth I am very serious about this being a dangerous practice occuring many more lodges than most realize. Consider that I have had to deal with this subject personally and it is not something I want to have end up blamed on Masonry. I do have the outmost respect for Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Tamahu
I'm not here to set traps.

Oh that's good

Originally posted by Tamahu
Just asking questions, so all can possibly benefit from these discussions.

I'm good for that, though think it'd be out of place with the current topic.

Originally posted by Tamahu
The screen-name you've chosen is a pretty heafty one; hence the quotes(Saint is synonymous with the Bodhisattva of Buddhism, which is a very honorable title; and anybody who is not one, could doubtfully comprehend the sacrifice required to earn it).

I use the word "saint" as it is defined by my Book sitting next to me, and have no interest in being honoured, reverered, or whatever. The term "friend" works well too. I think madmanacrosswater is on par with that as a good address that applies here. Yes, saint it is overt, but intentionally so. Apologies in advance to those who want me to make a lightning bolt come from the sky as "proof". I don't do that, nor would I want to.

Originally posted by Tamahu
I'm not saying that you're not a saint for God(for all I know you could be); but at the same time, by reading some of your posts, makes me want to question that.

A question has never done me harm. Test the spirits, it's what my Book says too.

Originally posted by Tamahu
Regarding those threads you posted; I'll do the knowledge, as to get an answer to the question from my last post.

No need to read through them all since I don't think anyone has asked before. Feel free to just drop in the question.

PEACE

Hey! There it is! Thanks, and peace to you too.