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Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

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posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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For some reaosn it doesn't seem that this book would be something the mass market would want to read, or be able to read.


I started to read it, and I have enjoyed it thus far long read though, and I hate reading on computers with a white backround.




posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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I would prefer to have a physical book in my hands, under my favourite lamp and in my bed. So I guess I have to jerry-rig the printed pages at Kinkos.


It will prove a good read, normally I like to analyze text line by line.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by Majestic12]



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic12
I would prefer to have a physical book in my hands


Same here,but I feel that I can manage while I am short the $100. I wonder where Mr.Necros has gone off to cause I looked and I haven't seen him coming to answer me. And what with Neon Helmet has everyone left that was going to go agianst the Masons?



posted on Sep, 26 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Masonic Light:

So Pike was interested in evil in the sense of mans existential hardships? That is to say, realizing the evil within that is, perhaps, in all of us and explaining it away in a tangible context - emphasizing a retreat from injecting epicircles: a spiritual "Devil" that is the root cause of our darkness.

If that is the case, then I agree with him in that the Devil is not needed, but merely evil exists. People are selfish; overly competitive; egocentric; narcissistic... This, based on sound inductive reasoning. But good exists, too.

At any rate, I will look into Pike.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Trinityman
He is not mentioned or referred to in any ritual, and the whole ethos of freemasonry points in the diametrically opposite direction to everything that Lucifer/satan stands for.

Waitaminute, how can pike discuss him so much then if its so much in opposition to masonry?? Was pike simply a bad mason in that respect?? Or is the 'lucifer' of pike merely so different that its not in opposition??

I see ML has beat me to it. To add to his comments, however, remember that Morals and Dogma is not masonic ritual but a book outlining an experienced freemason's opinion of the meaning of the ritual. Pike was certainly not a bad mason, and I think it's clear that at least in one context Pike was referring to the classic definition of lucifer.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
See? I was right!

www.abovetopsecret.com...



Axe, somehow I missed your original post. It was brilliant!



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by Majestic12
So basically Pike is just saying that Lucifer is nothing more than a opposite of God?


Pike uses the word "Lucifer" to mean several different things, depending on context. In the case of its use in Chapter 3, he uses a partial quote from Eliphas Levi to theorize that Satan is the personification of atheism, and here uses "Lucifer" as a synonym for Satan.


Masonic Light, can I buy Morals and Dogmas from any bookstore or is it exclusive to Masons only?


It is available to the general public. Softback reprints are available through Kessinger, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. However, you may be able to find an original hardback on Ebay. The Supreme Council 33° also sells used originals on its website:

www.srmason-sj.org...

[edit on 27-9-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 07:57 AM
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Just wanted to add as a witness, I can say that Satan is not merely symbol of evil.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Just wanted to add as a witness, I can say that Satan is not merely symbol of evil.


(I'm not being sarcastic)

Do you beleive that Satan is a real entity that is constantly at war with God? And do you also believe that Lucifer is Satan is Lucifer?

Have you met Satan?


Originally posted by Masonic Light

Axe, somehow I missed your original post. It was brilliant!


Heheh. Heh. Thanks man. Coming from you that is a helluva compliment.


[edit on 9/27/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Just wanted to add as a witness, I can say that Satan is not merely symbol of evil.



Pike didn't necessarily say that satan was a symbol of "evil"; instead, he was semi-quoting Levi to that effect that, in the Qabalah, satan is the symbol of atheism or disbelief. This generally leads to a materialistic and carnal outlook on life, which is the opposite viewpoint of the Initiate.



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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obviously this is an interesting thread. so many ideas and theorys. at least some of you are questioning and looking for answers. that is good



posted on Sep, 27 2005 @ 09:49 PM
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Peace Majestic12



Originally posted by Majestic12
So basically Pike is just saying that Lucifer is nothing more than a opposite of God?

Masonic Light, can I buy Morals and Dogmas from any bookstore or is it exclusive to Masons only?





Gnostic Glossary:

Lucifer (Latin: lux, lucis, luce, luci, and lucu: “light”; fer, fero: “to bear, carry, support, lift, hold, take up”; these synthesize as “Bearer of Light”) Before Milton, Lucifer had never been a name of the devil. One of the early Popes of Rome bore that name, and there was even a Christian sect in the fourth century which was called the Luciferians. In Universal Gnosticism, Lucifer is the shadow of the Christ.



Also, see my post on page two.



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 01:36 AM
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People are evil and the Government doesn't give a match stick about us. What else is left to discuss anymore besides aliens?



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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I can't decide what to make of the man. If he was a key KKK leader, I want nothing to do with him, and that is with my knowledge of the man's great oratorical skills, and his stature in the who's who of America. I can usually find bits of good in even the biggest piles of crap, but certain figures from history just repel me, such as Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. If the Pike supporters are right, though, and Pike had nothing to do with the KKK, then the man is the victim of a wicked smear campaign. I can't say who is right, though I am leaning towards him having some affiliation with the Klan, based mostly on the sheer volume of information claiming it. But that is by no means convincing enough for me to choose a side yet.
Anyone out there who can enlighten me, lol, sort of like Prometheus did, or the serpent, or Lucifer, or the Illuminati, etc.
Is Pike a hero .......... or a villian? Someone please convince me.



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I can't say who is right, though I am leaning towards him having some affiliation with the Klan, based mostly on the sheer volume of information claiming it.


The story that Pike was somehow affiliated with the Ku Klux Klan originated with a book written by Walter Fleming in the 1920's, over 30 years after Pike's death. Before this time, it was never claimed that Pike had a member of the KKK, and Fleming did not list his source.

Several points must be taken into consideration:

1. In all of Pike's writings, which are as voluminous as humanly possible, one can go in, if he has enough time and patience, and find out what Pike thought about practically everything. Nowhere in any of Pike's writings can be found anything concerning the KKK.

2. Pike, in Morals and Dogma, expressed his disapproval of organizations that discriminate based on religious belief, and he praised Masonry for admitting men of all faiths. The KKK admit only self-proclaimed Christians, and thus fall under Pike's criticisms.

3. The original Ku Klux Klan was a simple fraternal order, not a terrorist organization. When the rank and file of the Klan's membership began engaging in criminal activities, Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest disbanded the organization, and condemned the Klan's crimes. All of the Klan's leadership resigned with Forrest, and likewise condemned it. If Pike had been an early member and leader of the Klan, he would have done the same.



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 08:20 AM
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I appreciate all the Pike background information. It is worth noting though, that any subversive, anti-social underground militia would be very tight lipped. If the KKK were attracting heat by getting caught doing lynchings, etc., it would be logical for the leaders to 'publicly' resign and denounce the actions. Then they are absolved, and disassociated with them, and their name cleared. But then who is to say who might have donned the pointy hood and returned? If Pike was as smart a fellow as I suspect he was, he would have kept any possible link to the KKK secret.
I am not saying he did. It is just that that last sentence made me feel like you knew he was a KKK leader, and that he resigned. I know it was not said, but that was what I felt when I read it, and I wondered....why add that at the end? Still unsure, myself, but I am leaning more towards him not being KKK than to him being KKK. It is still not conclusively proven either way, if one wants to be critical.

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
It is just that that last sentence made me feel like you knew he was a KKK leader, and that he resigned. I know it was not said, but that was what I felt when I read it, and I wondered....why add that at the end?


I think it was an 'even if' phrase, in the case that he was involved. In other words, I don't think there's anyone who can say they know for sure, but given what he had said and what was written, 'even if' he were a member, then according to what he has said and demonstrated, he 'most likely would've' left and renounced their actions, as he renounced him in the book. I don't know the history, nor the book Masonic Light is citing, though have used 'even if's in my statements since we're talking about things beyond what is known for certain. I don't mean to speak for Masonic Light either, so if I'm off sir, please correct. I personally would not like to be associated with any exclusive organization, and Mason Light gave me another good reason why I shouldn't, with the KKK being a prime example.

[edit on 28-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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'Almost all the noblest things that have been achieved in the world, have been achieved by poor men; poor scholars, poor professional men, poor artisans and artists, poor philosophers, poets, and men of genius. '
Albert Pike

'Faith begins where Reason sinks exhausted. '
Albert Pike

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal." albert pike

great stuff, so why is he missing from this extensive list of famous masons?
Of course, I may have missed him.

www.calodges.org...



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
It is just that that last sentence made me feel like you knew he was a KKK leader, and that he resigned. I know it was not said, but that was what I felt when I read it, and I wondered....why add that at the end?


Personally, I do not believe that Albert Pike was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, not even the early, fraternal one. If he had been, there would almost certainly be some sort of documentation on it. The Klan's early documents list their leaders and founders, as none of them considered it a secret. Pike's name is missing from all these documents.

In Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia by Henry Wilson Coil, Coil writes that Pike was Chief Judicial Officer for the Ku Klux Klan. Many consider this authoritative because Coil was a highly respected Scottish Rite Mason, and here "admits" that Pike was a Klansman. However, Coil used Fleming as his source, which pushes it back to square one.

In any case, there is no evidence that links Pike to the Klan outside of speculation.

Wikipedia, in its biography of Pike, says:

Claims have been made that Albert Pike was a high ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan. This is a claim that is impossible to either substantiate or disprove. Research into primary source material will reveal that there isn't any primary source material.

The only writings that would come close to qualifying as a primary source is a booklet written by one of the Klan founders, Captain John C. Lester, in 1884, comprising his reminiscences fifteen years after the fact. The only name noted in Lester's book is one reference to "Gen. Forrest" it does not mention Albert Pike.

It was not until Dr. Walter L. Fleming republished Lester's booklet in 1905 that a list of names of key Klansmen was included in a preface one of whom was Albert Pike whom is not mentioned at any other point in the book.

In 1924, Ms. Susan L. Davis published her Authentic History, in which she contradicts a number of points made by Lester, denigrates Fleming for his superficial knowledge of the Klan and condemns Lester's co-author, David L. Wilson, for suggesting the Klan had failed.

Any other book or article promoting Albert Pike's association with the Klan will either cite Fleming or Davis, cite other authors who cite Fleming or Davis, or not cite anyone. Both Fleming and Davis accepted, unquestioningly, the fifty year old reminiscences of several of the founding members of the Klan. There is no source documentation, corroborating evidence or other testimony to implicate Albert Pike with the Klan. Pike had been dead fourteen years when Fleming first published, and was in no position to address the issue.


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Sep, 28 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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It certainly looks like the Pike/KKK link is pretty weak at best. That is good to know, since I like the quotes of his I read.



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