Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

Originally posted by AngelWitch
I do have to agree with you on one point, you cannot be a Freemason and should not be accepted if you were to petition. Not because you're not worthy or believe so strongly, but rather because you wouldn't understand what you were entering into. In all honesty, such a stong belief , moral character and questioning nature are exactly what makes a good Mason.

I appreciate your judgement. If an organization wishes to say "you wouldn't understand" without the sincerity nor patience to educate, I too would not want to be a part. Up until this point, with Masonic Light's display of both, I was beginnig to believe Masons were sincere and patient. It now sounds to me like he's a diamond in the rough. Sorry I could not help you see that I have a strong belief, moral character and a questioning nature.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by realrepublican
But what concerns me most is that the difference between a Saint and a Sadist is that both think they are Gods, but only the Saint acts like one. The Saint has destroyed the egoism, whereas the Sadist endulges in the passions of the egoism. yet they both use similar symbology and the Sadist could convince stupid people to be Gods like they are.

Hold up please. I know I'm not a god nor act like one. I know there is one God and that His son Jesus the Christ died to pay the penalty for our sins, that whoever believes in him with have eternal life. This is the definition of saint as the Book I hold states.

Originally posted by realrepublican
And who needs your love more, your brother Mason, or a misguided Atheist?

Wow, well said. Now this was spoken by a person who understands the heart. Thank you for brightening my day.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by AngelWitch
I do have to agree with you on one point, you cannot be a Freemason and should not be accepted if you were to petition. Not because you're not worthy or believe so strongly, but rather because you wouldn't understand what you were entering into. In all honesty, such a stong belief , moral character and questioning nature are exactly what makes a good Mason.

I appreciate your judgement. If an organization wishes to say "you wouldn't understand" without the sincerity nor patience to educate, I too would not want to be a part. Up until this point, with Masonic Light's display of both, I was beginnig to believe Masons were sincere and patient. It now sounds to me like he's a diamond in the rough. Sorry I could not help you see that I have a strong belief, moral character and a questioning nature.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

That's not at all what I was saying. Quite the opposite, I was trying to say that
your moral character, strong belief, and questioning nature are EXACTLY what would make
you an excellent mason but that no one should join anything until they fully understand what
it is they're joining. I'm more than happy to discuss, answer questions and try and disspell any misunderstandings.

Originally posted by realrepublican
Why can't an atheist join Masonry? I thought an atheist is a good person who just simply is unaware of his own true nature? Should churches also turn away atheists?

There have been many atheists who have personally been good and moral men. The reason an atheist cannot be made a Mason is not because he is morally inferior; it's simply because Masonry is a theistic institution, which recognizes the existence of the Grand Architect of the Universe, and teaches that we serve the Deity by serving our fellow man.

To answer your second question, while churches do not "turn away" atheists, atheists cannot join a church. In order to join a church, one must first be baptized, after making a public confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He atoned for mankind on the cross.

Originally posted by realrepublican


Lucifer is a God, he is an archangel. But his reflection into these worlds is that of Shameal. Shameal will appear evil or antagonistic to those who have not yet destroyed the egoism. That's what Manly P Hall meant when he referred to "the power of Lucifer will be in your grasps".

Your definition of "Lucifer" is not a universal one. As mentioned previously in this thread, Hebrew scholars of the Tanakh, as well as most Christian biblical scholars, believe that the reference found in the Latin translation of Isaiah refers to Tigleth-pilaser II, king od Babylon, not a supernatural being.

Also, I must disagree with your interpretation of Hall's comment. Brother Hall was a theosophist, and often used theosophical language in his writings. The theosophists did not believe in Christian theology or archangels, but often used the term "Lucifer" to describe personal enlightenment. To the theosophist, "Lucifer" is an abstract force that represents knowledge, not an archangel.

Remember that a lot of evil things in todays world like Lucifer and the pentagon were once highly worshipped by the pagans, before christianity took over and used the pagan symbols and people as something which is against the Bible, Jesus and God.

The truth is the view of these things as being evil is stemmed from old teachings of the Catholic church and now we think of the devil.

I will give you one example, the pitchfork used by the devil actually derives from Poseidon the Sea God. ( anyone with a bit of knowledge of greek history will know who he is

Originally posted by AngelWitch
That's not at all what I was saying. Quite the opposite, I was trying to say that
your moral character, strong belief, and questioning nature are EXACTLY what would make
you an excellent mason but that no one should join anything until they fully understand what
it is they're joining.

Now that is a lot different than what was said before, which sounded like a quite a slap. I appreciate this clarifying, and thank you for the compliment.

Originally posted by AngelWitch
I'm more than happy to discuss, answer questions and try and disspell any misunderstandings.

Me too. I have a question. What's an AngelwWitch?

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Me too. I have a question. What's an AngelwWitch?

It was a really cruddy 80's heavy metal band, hated their "music" but liked the name.

Just to be a real radical and return to the topic...

Lucifer does not appear in Freemasonry. He is not mentioned or referred to in any ritual, and the whole ethos of freemasonry points in the diametrically opposite direction to everything that Lucifer/satan stands for.

The phrase 'bright morning star' is used in freemasonry as a direct reference to the Saviour. In context interpreting it as Evil makes no sense.

I know it's a really boring post in a very interesting thread of 10 pages but, hey, what can you do???

Originally posted by AngelWitch
It was a really cruddy 80's heavy metal band,

Hm, surprised I hadn't heard of them.

Originally posted by AngelWitch
hated their "music" but liked the name.

Looks like a bit of a contradiction to me, so didn't know if it was belief based.

Originally posted by Trinityman
He is not mentioned or referred to in any ritual, and the whole ethos of freemasonry points in the diametrically opposite direction to everything that Lucifer/satan stands for.

Waitaminute, how can pike discuss him so much then if its so much in opposition to masonry?? Was pike simply a bad mason in that respect?? Or is the 'lucifer' of pike merely so different that its not in opposition??

Originally posted by Nygdan

Waitaminute, how can pike discuss him so much then if its so much in opposition to masonry??

I would argue that Pike didn't discuss Lucifer much at all. In all the Masonic books and lectures that Pike wrote, which consist of thousands and thousands of pages, I only recall Pike referring to Lucifer for, at most, 5 times (4 times in "Morals and Dogma" and once in the Legenda to the 32°). Of these 5 times, one was in reference to the planet Venus (the Legenda), two were semi-quotes from Eliphas Levi (M&D Chapters 3 and 19), one was as a synonym for a prideful person (Chapter 3 again), and another was an expansion near the end of Chapter of 19 referring to the need of men to invent belief in a devil in order to understand the existence of evil.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I would argue that Pike didn't discuss Lucifer much at all. In all the Masonic books and lectures that Pike wrote, which consist of thousands and thousands of pages, I only recall Pike referring to Lucifer for, at most, 5 times (4 times in "Morals and Dogma" and once in the Legenda to the 32°). Of these 5 times, one was in reference to the planet Venus (the Legenda), two were semi-quotes from Eliphas Levi (M&D Chapters 3 and 19), one was as a synonym for a prideful person (Chapter 3 again), and another was an expansion near the end of Chapter of 19 referring to the need of men to invent belief in a devil in order to understand the existence of evil.

For those who have previously told me to "go do some research on it", my answer is - "I don't have to". Thanks again Masonic Light.

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Thanks again Masonic Light.

No problem. Here are the actual quotes from M&D:

Hypocrisy is the homage that vice and wrong pay to virtue and justice. It is .Satan attempting to clothe himself in the angelic vesture of light. It is equally detestable in morals, politics, and religion; in the man and in the nation. To do injustice under the pretence of equity and fairness; to reprove vice in public and commit it in private; to pretend to charitable opinion and censoriously condemn; to profess the principles of Masonic beneficence, and close the ear to the wail of distress and the cry of suffering; to eulogize the intelligence of the people, and plot to deceive and be-tray them by means of their ignorance and simplicity; to prate of purity, and peculate; of honor, and basely abandon a sinking cause; of disinterestedness, and sell one's vote for place and power, are hypocrisies as common as they are infamous and disgraceful. To steal the livery of the Court of God to serve the Devil withal; to pretend to believe in a God of mercy and a Redeemer of love, and persecute those of a different faith; to devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; to preach continence, and wallow in lust; to inculcate humility, and in pride surpass Lucifer; to pay tithe, and omit the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith; to strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel; to make clean the outside of the cup and platter, keeping them full within of extortion and excess; to appear outwardly righteous unto men, but within be full of hypocrisy and iniquity, is indeed to be like unto whited sepulchres, which appear beautiful outward, but are within full of bones of the dead and of all uncleanness.
- p.73

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.
- p. 102

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.
- p. 321

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; not alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but also in our convictions, consciousness, and instincts. Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tuphōn, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.
- p. 324

See? I was right!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry Right now I should be doing something for my Chemistry Class, but I liked this quote so I figured I would post it real quick.

There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures.
- James Thurber

So basically Pike is just saying that Lucifer is nothing more than a opposite of God?

Masonic Light, can I buy Morals and Dogmas from any bookstore or is it exclusive to Masons only?

Originally posted by Majestic12
So basically Pike is just saying that Lucifer is nothing more than a opposite of God?

Masonic Light, can I buy Morals and Dogmas from any bookstore or is it exclusive to Masons only?

The Axeman had a nice talk to me on this very subject where he supplied me with online versions for free, because he said that the book itself could cost 100's. Here are the links:

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

www.sacred-texts.com...

Enjoy


[edit on 9/26/2005 by The_Final]

Well so much for the mass market paperback copy.