Plenty of Blame to Go Around

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posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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There's so many threads here wanting to place the blame on one person, namely Bush. And, I'm fairly sure Mr Brown from FEMA will be one of the scapegoats.

But, who is to blame for what happened after Katrina made landfall? Seems to me there's plenty of folks to blame.

During an emergency in my town, I would look for the town officials first. If they couldn't handle it, the situation should get bumped up until the emegency was successfully responded to.
Realistically speaking, I know my town---and probably many of yours--couldn't deal with and extra three inches of snow, let alone a major hurricane.

I also don't have much faith in my state. They have not much of a clue about what really goes on in my state. I think the legislators are too busy working on their next raise. And the governor is out of touch.

The Feds, well, it is a huuuuge bureaucracy and huge bureaucracies are ineffiecient. So, how much can they help?

Back to the hurricane...
I have a feeling if Bush had sped federal intervention to the Gulf Coast, we'd be yelling that he interferred with the state and local govt rights.
I'd like to wonder how much difference it would have made since even today there is no forced evacuation during the mandatory evacuation.
Damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

I'd like your thoughts on this.

And, here's a couple fo well written articles touching on spreading the blame:
Katrina questions

Assigning blame




posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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The local officials asked for federal help before the hurricane struck, they knew they couldn't handle it so they told the federal government to evacuate the people. If Bush had done his job people would be praising him, not complaining, he did nothing, FEMA did more to stop help than actually help as did Homeland Security.

The federal government gets all the blame because they were put in charge before the hurricane struck. Bush remained on holiday and even played golf while people died, he broke his oath to the American people, he did nothing to protect them, except slow everything down for photo ops.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:10 PM
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NCM, you're statements simply are wrong. If anyone delayed it was the State governor. Bush had everything in place beforehand but the mayor and governor did almost nothing to help.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:13 PM
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Anyone who is solely focusing on Bush or any of the involved parties is not opening their eyes to the whole picture. There is alot of blame to be shared and Nagin, Blanco, FEMA, Bush, Congress and the American People needs to share it equally.

I think we know why blame should be placed on the first four, but the American People should be blamed for tolerating and voting in politicians who only make the bureaucracy inefficient and for allowing politicians to set agendas that are not in our best interest.

and I disagree, I don't think we'd be yelling at Bush for interfering if he had rushed federal aid, of course you'll have the usual haters, but most logical people would be appreciative of the federal govt acting on our behalf when and if a state is unable to do so.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I have a feeling if Bush had sped federal intervention to the Gulf Coast, we'd be yelling that he interferred with the state and local govt rights.

I'd like your thoughts on this.


After 9/11, FEMA, Bush, Guiliani (sp?) and Pataki were like one giant force for good. I don't recall one single mention of interference with state and local governments. The thought is ridiculous, in fact. People needed help and everyone jumped in to provide it. Remember, we were all New Yorkers. There were no 'us' and 'them' at that time, though.

This country has become so politically polarized since then that when anything occurs, we start pointing fingers immediately. It's human nature to want to blame someone, but I know there's plenty of blame to go around and plenty of shoulders to carry it. No one person carries all of the responsibility.

Truth be told, I suspect we don't even know the people who are really to blame for this fiasco. We're just blaming the 'fall guys' as per schedule.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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Remember FEMA was completely reorganized with the pressure of the 9/11 commission and families...it used to be an independant department but it was practically gutted by the 9/11 reorganization program. This was a huge mistake. And BTW Bush was initially against it but pushed into endorsing it by the 9/11 families.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 01:57 AM
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Even the title of this forum is unfair and, frankly, insulting. "Katrina Conspiracy"?

Please... it's a disaster where many things went wrong. It's a disaster -- the largest disaster in the last 100 years in the USA! It's a disaster where many of the rescue efforts went right, and many aspects of the disaster response went wrong. A disaster where some of those running the response were incompetent or near-sighted or had programs that were underfunded to begin with. A disaster where there were ninety thousand square miles of damage and flooding.

Put into perspective, that is equivalent to over 95% of the entire land mass of the United Kingdom (94,252 sq miles)! How long would it take to search all of England for survivors? England is "only" 50,085 square miles... Would you expect all of England to have been searched within 4 or 5 days after a disaster of this magnitude? Would it even be possible to search 90,000 square miles in under a week or more if there was no damage or flooding? Did most of you honestly understand the size of the US involved before this comparison?

Yes, there were problems and incompetence in some areas of the government's response to Katrina. But is it truely a conspiracy? No, not unless conspiracy means sensationalizing the story for more hits and better adview stats for this month.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 02:48 AM
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Catherder

Why are you talking about searching through the ENTIRE state in 4/5 days? How about starting with the people all amassed in the Superdome? At one time there were over 70,000 in and outside, getting no aid whatsoever.

Were they taken care of properly? I dont think the criticism is for the entire 90,000 sq mass and for helpers not being able to find everybody when this isn't what people are complaining about.

There are some disasters that no one can do anything about. What we witnessed was the screw up AFTER the winds and storms died down. Failure of communication, trucks being sent back full of supplies, not letting people in to help, disorganisation, chaos, you name it, it was happening and smack dab in the middle of the city. The failure, delay and confusion to act was NOT part of mother nature.

Yes it is important to be aware of the landmass that was hit, but also to be honest that the reason there were so many people ammased in one section was because they were told to go there. Surely the rescue operation would have gone more smoothly for those people and for rescuers themselves because they were all in one place and they didn't have to go up and down the country looking for the majority of the population, thereby wasting precious time and supplies and manpower: they were in one neat, convenient bulk.

Not to mention that some folks were in the superdome and then after seeing what was happening and how they were treated, they fled elsewhere. Where are they now? Probably dead or waiting in some waterlogged attic.

I agree that it was a disaster that was the cause of many failures. No way around it.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
NCM, you're statements simply are wrong. If anyone delayed it was the State governor. Bush had everything in place beforehand but the mayor and governor did almost nothing to help.


No, they were ignored. Here is a link to the letter sent to Bush by Blanco on Aug. 28th. requesting federal assistance. They new they couldn't handle it alone.
www.gov.state.la.us...

Here is part 2:
www.gov.state.la.us...



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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mOjOm, at this point, singling out persons/agenices to blame is moot.

Worldwatcher is right, the blame is spread out among us all...to different degrees. They knew NOLA was at risk since Camille in the late 60s...almost 40 years ago. Something should have been done then. The area should not have been allowed to be so densely populated. So, we can plan greedy landlords, too.


Please, feel free to read the article I linked above, assigning blame.
The author says it far better than I could ever hope.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by nikelbee
Catherder

Why are you talking about searching through the ENTIRE state in 4/5 days? How about starting with the people all amassed in the Superdome? At one time there were over 70,000 in and outside, getting no aid whatsoever.


No, that's just untrue. The seating capacity of the Superdome is 70,000. You have confused one bit of information reported with the number of people at the Superdome. The highest number ever reported accurately was quoted as "25,000 victims, the majority of them at the Superdome." (Some reports said up to 30,000.) On September 2nd there were already evacuees from the Superdome being interviewed in Texas at the Astrodome -- so that means they were being relocated within 2 days of the flooding).


Were they taken care of properly? I dont think the criticism is for the entire 90,000 sq mass and for helpers not being able to find everybody when this isn't what people are complaining about.


No, they weren't taken care of quickly enough. I'm not arguing that at all. But it's sure as hell no conspiracy -- it's a failure in the response at many levels. I'm not sure the proper plan to rescue 25,000 people would have been to start showing up with a few buses here and there, I'm positive this would have caused a riot when you consider the situation in the Superdome as reported by actual survivors who were eventually moved from there to other locations. Showing up with a large group of National Guard and buses, to ensure it was an orderly evacuation, was most likely the best reponse (even though it was slower than I would want).


There are some disasters that no one can do anything about. What we witnessed was the screw up AFTER the winds and storms died down. Failure of communication, trucks being sent back full of supplies, not letting people in to help, disorganisation, chaos, you name it, it was happening and smack dab in the middle of the city. The failure, delay and confusion to act was NOT part of mother nature.


I see some incompetence, I see a lot of people overwhelmed with the size of the task at hand, I see a lot of people trying to do what they could (and some of them being overwhelmed by the task that they left their jobs or in some cases comitted suicide). But where is the conspiracy?


Yes it is important to be aware of the landmass that was hit, but also to be honest that the reason there were so many people ammased in one section was because they were told to go there. Surely the rescue operation would have gone more smoothly for those people and for rescuers themselves because they were all in one place and they didn't have to go up and down the country looking for the majority of the population, thereby wasting precious time and supplies and manpower: they were in one neat, convenient bulk.


Somehow, the "government" managed to relocate over 5 million people to safety beforehand. Then, somehow, the "government" managed to relocate or rescue another 500,000 people in the first 7 days following the disaster. I think that's a remarkable task to achieve, but then apparently that just makes me one of the brainwashed sheep...

And somehow the "government" managed to rescue those 25,000-30,000 from the Superdome within 3 days of the hurricane hitting. It wasn't a week, it wasn't an eternity, nobody starved to death. Should the Superdome have been better prepared to handle the "refugees"? You bet your ass it should have been, it was designated as a spot to gather -- local and state officials should have ensured it was stocked with water and other essentials when they deemed it to be a sanctuary for such an event (but it wasn't). Is that a conspiracy? No, that's a failure on a state and municipal level to plan ahead.


Not to mention that some folks were in the superdome and then after seeing what was happening and how they were treated, they fled elsewhere. Where are they now? Probably dead or waiting in some waterlogged attic.


"Probably"? That's what this forum is mostly about. Speculation, jumping to conclusions, and active imaginations. There is no conspiracy, it's a disaster of an enormous scale.


I agree that it was a disaster that was the cause of many failures. No way around it.


Absolutely. There is the failure of many government agencies at many levels, state, federal and local in their response to the disaster. There is the failure of planning, and the failure of pre-disaster funding. There is the failure to heed advice from many different scientists and groups regarding the levee system and the preservation of the wetlands. I'm not disputing any of this at all, and it needs to be addressed by anyone with a voice. But does that make it a conspiracy? No.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Catherder


Where in my entire post was the word CONSPIRACY? Incompetence yes. Failure yes. Disorganisation and chaos, yes - yes. Conspiracy? That's your own word. Perhaps you meant to direct it at someone else?

And yes there were 70,000 people at one time at the Superdome. You didn't bother reading my post. I said INSIDE and OUT. I am well aware of the figures on the day of the evacuation. The figure I am talking about was reported the 2 or 3 day on various newsources. The people were milling around - not seated inside.

From a local Louisiana station:


4:21 P.M. - WWL-TV Reporter quotes officials as saying there may now be 60,000 people in the Superdome and that more people are still being urged to go there.

www.wwltv.com...



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by nikelbee
Incompetence yes. Failure yes. Disorganisation and chaos, yes - yes.


You have pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject.

This was not some vast rightwing conspiracy to kill off blacks nor a vast leftwing conspiracy to make King George look bad.

Sadly, it was our Government, from the Mayor to the President, being shown for what it is. A bloated bureaucracy staffed by friends of our elected officals who were to freaking stupid to get a job at McDonalds.

DTOM is right, there is plenty of blame to go around.

And the first people to blame are we the voters who keep electing the same idiots and crooks year after year.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
DTOM is right, there is plenty of blame to go around.

And the first people to blame are we the voters who keep electing the same idiots and crooks year after year.


What kind of choice do we have when the same idiots and crooks keep running year after year?



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by nikelbee
Where in my entire post was the word CONSPIRACY? Incompetence yes. Failure yes. Disorganisation and chaos, yes - yes. Conspiracy? That's your own word. Perhaps you meant to direct it at someone else?


Yeah you're right. It wasn't meant to be directed at you, it was meant to be directed at anyone reading the forum.

It's NOT my own word - it's the word of the ATS administration (view the title of this forum for confirmation).

[edit on 10-9-2005 by CatHerder]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
What kind of choice do we have when the same idiots and crooks keep running year after year?


There are other choices out there.....Libertarian, Constitutionalists, Green Party, Independents, etc.

But as long as we buy into the "Any vote not for the Big Two is a wasted vote" lie things will remain the same.

Why should they change? No one is going to lose any power so their is no incentive for change.

Third parties would not even have to win just get 20-30% of the vote and you would see massive changes happen, because then the Big Two would know we mean business



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
NCM, you're statements simply are wrong. If anyone delayed it was the State governor. Bush had everything in place beforehand but the mayor and governor did almost nothing to help.


*cough cough*

According to Governor Blanco's office, and verified by FEMA's own website updates, the governor filed the necessary request three days before Katrina struck, following defined FEMA protocol in the process.

Sources:

State of Louisiana Website with downloadable PDF images of the letters

Press release as carried by the State of Louisiana website

FEMA's acknowledgement

According to the information linked to above on the FEMA website (posted there on August 27th):

1. Governor Blanco declared a State of Emergency on Friday, August 26th, THREE DAYS BEFORE KATRINA HIT.

2. FEMA new DMAN well that Katrina was going to strengthen before making landfall -- as predicted by the NOAA and NHC.

Let us also not forget that a full 35% of Louisiana's National Guard and reservists, along with 40% of Mississippi's, are serving overseas, thus depriving the states of desparately needed resources in a time of need. NOTE: The preceding comment is not intended whatsoever to be a commentary on Iraq, but nonetheless, this is an important fact to consider when assessing the states' ability to adequately deal witht eh aftermath of a disaster of such catastrophic proportions.

And while IMHO there is no excuse for the mayor's office not having stored adequate supplies or for that matter, having made adequate use of available resources (e.g. school busses), the responsibility for the delayed initial response -- espacially the lack of coordinated command and control -- is in and of itself a far greater tragedy that falls squarely on the shoulders of our "leadership!"


When Coast Guard helicopters begin rescuing people within two hours of the disaster, when FEMA had prepositioned 18 medical teams, when the federal government admits they only became aware of the 10,000+ evacuees stranded without food or water at the convention center more than 48 hours AFTER the media was broadcasting images of said conditions to the entire world, there is no excuse, period.

And not only does the MIC (Moron-In-Charge) who spent a better part of the 90's working at horsie shows receive praise from our president, but after being relieved from the duties pertaining to the handling of this disaster (Why? So he can begin advance preparations for bungling the relief and recovery efforts from our next disaster?
), we find out he is keeping his job???



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