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Originally posted by meshuggah1324
I found the coordinates for Papoose Mountain:
37.1814 N / -115.8419 W
Originally posted by Nventual
...Maybe Lazar was taken somewhere else that looked like Papoose Lake so that when he told people about it he'd be telling them the wrong spot.
Originally posted by meshuggah1324
I've been told by Robert Collins that this satellite photo of some small buildings was used as a helicopter landing area for special missions. There are two roads near by but not in this picture. Collins says he knows a guy named Gene who worked there.
Originally posted by Dallas
Yuk. Your suggesting Papose Lake does not exist? If that's what your suggesting I suppose a 737 does not fly in and out of Groom Lake several times a day either.
Guys take a look at Papoose Lake AKA S-4 from the satelite shots of the area. There is nothing there. Period.. One dirt road, and thats about it. If there was a huge underground facility there would be signs of it. Not to mention greenpeace protestors tried to infiltrate the Nevada Test Site and walked across the dry lake bed there before getting caught. Saw nothing but desert and scrub brush.......
Im not saying there are not underground bases there, but based on the info the Area 51 team has dug up so far (pun intended) it does not seem likely. Somewere perhaps in the Nellis Range, but not here.
Went to the USGS Office In Mnlo Park CA to pull the 7.5 minute maps for the Groom lake Area yesterday. FYI, USGS is the US Geological Survey, among other things they produce topagraphic maps for all of the US. They can be used for backpacking etc. The 7.5 minute series is taken by plane and can show quite a bit of terrain detail. Each Quad is (I think) the time it takes the plane to travel 7.5 minutes)
I got the
Castle Spring Quadrangle
Groom Range NE
Groom Range SE
Groom Range SW
Groom Mine NW
Nothing Earthshaking (I did not expect anything) The Lakebed itself is lables as Groom Lake and right below Nevada Test Site which makes sence. Therse is a restricted area box that only crosses the Northern 20% of the lake. But the who area is restricted so who knows. All of the topos were last renewed from 1983-1989. However the origional aerial photos were taken in 1968. The only thing intersting about that is looking at the other parts of nevada, the surveys are only 5-10 years old max. The only other interesting item is that one of the surrounding series of Quads is called "Fallout Hills" not where I want to vacation
Okay Ive finsihed looking at the USGS maps for the area: I never figured this would come to much, but it was intersting to scope out the terrain.
Lake is about 4444 feet above sea level. Its really flat.
Thats only 5 feet of change.
The lake measures 3 miles at its wides e-w point
about 4 miles at its n - s point
4/5's of the lake is in a restricted access box labled Nevada Test Center. The Northern 20% were the base is is in the Nellis range. The lake itself is called 'Groom lake" Groom Peak is at 5714 feet. Not too much higher in the range itself. The higest point in the quad was 6200. Groom range is the mountains you see in all the pics.
NNW There is a small mountain peak that is 1/4 mile from the lakebed. Its about 1/2 mile long and peaks at anbout 4728. Or about 340 feet above the lake. The rest of the range to the north gradually sloopes up over about 1.5 miles north untill it starts getting steep.
Multiple dirt roads intersect the lake (6) however, there is no road around its circumference.
Located NNE about 3-4 miles there is a large concentration of mines in a valley in the groom range. The labled mines include Black Metal Mine, and Groom Mine and about five sites labled as "prospects"
No buildings, powelines or airtrips noted.
Having done some research into the topic, talked to our resident mining engineer (my dad) looked at mining projects both in literature and first hand (more on that later) I have come to a conclution about the possibility that a large underground base exists specificaly at the Area 51 Complex.
Putting on my best Don Corleone Voice "I must say no to you, and I will give you my reasons"
1) The biggest question is what to do about the "muck" and derbits that a huge underground complex would entail.
Yesterday I spent part of the day at the Niebaum-Coppola Winery. We have "Rubicon" level membership there (took 4 years on a wait list) to pick up a few bottles of wine. One of the recent projects has involved tunnling into the mountain side to create caves to age their flagship wine "Rubicon" (If you can find it, the 1997 and the 99 are pretty kick ass). The project did not take a huge amount of time but the resulting muck created alot of headaches. I was talking to one of the staff at the winery and came away with a few points. First, the costs of hauling away the muck was almost the same as carving the tunnell itself. Disposal was an issue, but for some reason the staff member did not want to discuss that. The hauling away of the muck did considerable damage to the roadbed. The point of this other than getting to sample some good wine is that the waste created is a huge problem for public disposal let alone covert. Furthermore, the base would need to be constructed and the muck disposed of in a manner that would not draw the attention of the public, people not cleared for the project, spy and commerical satelites etc. The other recent tunnling project is Bostons "Big Dig" which required huge amount of manpower and disposal of the muck also gnerated problems. They backfilled in an area to create an island. This option would not be avalible to someone building a covert base.
Now with that in light lets consider the circumstances of Groom lake:
1) Site, somewhat covert, however since the early 80' untill the AF annexed all of the surrounding mountains, one was able to directly obsever the base from a distance. None of the reports from area 51 observers ie. Glen Cambell, never talk about any signs of mining or digging activity at the base (at least not in large scale). In the mid 90's the advent of both declassified Soviet spy satelites and commerical satelites do not reveal any huge derbit fields anywere near the base. Nor does it show any signifigant construction of hardened dirt roads that would allow big trucks to move the muck soemwere else on the Nellis Range.
That leaves the period of the 50' and the 60' when the base had not attracted any attention. We do have the Soviet Satelite shot of Groom lake in the 60's that shows a much smaller base, but again no indication of large sacle mining or digging activity. GooseUK's suggestion of usuing old mines has alot of merit and the possibilities are there. This hypotisis is directly supported by Richard Sauder's book "Underwater and Underground Bases" However, even he indicates that the best area for this is under Stripmines both active and inactive. they are huge areas, usually have underlying solid rick, and covert tunneling can be acomplished with the muck blended into overall mining operations. These complexes are HUGE. Last november, we spent 2 weeks driving through the SW of the US. Came across a strip mine in Arizona and it went on for mines and miles. You could easily conceal a miliraty base under the strip mine itself with no problem. However, none of the shots of the base show a strip mine old or new. We know from the USGS maps that there are numerous mines and claims dotting the area. However, most of these are in the groom range. not on the lakebed itself. As I pointed out, there is no indication past or presence of a hardened dirt roadway that would allow transportation of the Muck to dump them in the mine. Part of my november trip involved alot of off roading in death valley and near Josua Tree. We cam across numerous abandoned mines. The entrances were really tight and would involve alot of work to get the muck down there. These guys want these project to involve the minimum amout of people possible.
One area I really want to see a shot of is the Groom Mountain Range that is north of the lake bed. A dirt road cuts through it and that is the loaction of most of the mines on the groom mine Quad (the map the base is on) In every shot of the area, it is impossible to see the range from overhead.
If there is an underground componet to the base, I will put money that there is an istallation located somewere in that range.
2) The giant hanger concealing an elevator. Hanger 18 at Groom was mention in a previous post as possible concealing an elevator. This idea also has merit, however, I submit that this was built for mating ships like the Brilliant Buzzard, or for servicing the Venture Star which may have had a black counterpart. If they are moving ships up from below, would they need such a huge structure?
3) Base Logistics. While I have never claimed to be an imagry analysis from the NRO, I have not seen anything that resembles powerlines or a huge generation plant that would supply the base with power. So were does the base get its power? Nuclear would be a sound option for an underground base. And it would have been easy to construct in the 60's. Also the base is not subject to any US environmental regulations and that gets renewed each year by the president. I have not been able to verify even by rumor of such a plant existing. Underground powerlines would also have given some indication from the overhead imagry. The other issue for deeply buried bases that I picked up from the Saunders book is that due to the amount of heat that deep in the ground, the surrounding rock has to be chilled over a period of a few years prior to habitiation otherwise the equipment and people wont be able to function. The plant also has to have an ongoing cooling operation to maintain working temperatures. Again all of this requires alot of power and infrastructure. Non of the pictures show this.
Originally posted by meshuggah1324
Not that expensive considering we have a 30 billion dollar per year black budget. And even though it might be difficult to build underground facilities there, wouldn't they be safer from attack because of the low soil comtent? Also I'm sure you've seen the tunnel machines that turn even the hardest rock into a hot lava like substance...
Originally posted by FredT
In the course of the Area 51 project here at ATS (see the research forum) It became apparent that there is nothing at S-4 or Papose Lake. The testamony from Greenpeace activists who walked across it was the tip of the iceberg. Underground? Look at my conclutions in the research thread.