CHURCH & STATE

The recent events in Alabama concerning the location of the Ten Commandments in a state judicial building once again stirs the debate about the separation of church and state. The First Amendment of the Constitution states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The government of the United States is prohibited from recognizing any particular religion as the official religion of the country. This extends to any land or property owned by the government. Examples range from city hall to the White House, the vast wilderness to public parks, and pre-schools to universities. Therefore, if anyone wanted to erect a symbol of their particular religion on public land or property, provisions would have to be made to accommodate all the other religions as well. Consequently, in respecting the fact that all religions are equally affected by this prohibition, no one religion is recognized with favoritism nor is any religion restricted in its practice. We simply agree as United States citizens that in order for our religious differences to be accommodated, there must be some form of neutrality when it comes to public land and property.

The government is also prohibited from restricting the exercise of an individual's or group's religion. This too extends to any land or property owned by private individuals and groups. Examples include churches, synagogues, and mosques and any schools that are privately owned as well. So too, if anyone wanted to erect a symbol on private property, they would have to seek permission from the owners.

The separation of church and state was established by the founding fathers to prevent any one religion from influencing the state against other religions. It was a compromise of facilitation not a compromise of principle. So too, we must always guard against those who try to influence public morality with their own private beliefs. The problem with society today is that there is no respect for public ethics and morals. The main objective of capitalism has been corrupted into an ethos of materialism. The resulting hedonistic philosophy of "I, my and me" is what is ruining this country not the restriction of religion in public places. We need to bring back the study of philosophy in our schools and begin a new nurturing of spirituality in our religions. Otherwise the seeds of destruction for our social experiment will have finally come to fruition.

Comrade, I agree.

Separation of church and state is one of the most important elements of our government. Unfortunately, people try to slowly creep their views on religion and life into the government. They do it slowly, but it doesn't mean it's not happening. They say they are "expressing their views" when in fact they are using the public systems of the United States to force their views onto people... it is just a new means to spread their propoganda.

Let's take an example here(lets say this is at a public school)...

A Nazi member nails a propoganda poster onto the wall with a list of promises that will come true if his dictator is elected. He is advertising his belief to the general public...

A right wing fanatic nails a poster onto the wall with a list of the ten commandments . He is advertising his belief to the general public...

Both are equally wrong...public places are supposed to be a neutral enviornment, not another advertising spot for power hungry organizations.

It does NOT matter if the organization is sending a "Good" message or a "Bad" message... THEY DO NOT BELONG IN GOVERNMENT FACILITIES.

There are so many other places where they can speak their beliefs, why does it have to be on government property?






[Edited on 5-9-2003 by PolskieWojsko]

haven't we learned anything folks? church and state should always be seperate

Haven't we learned yet that people should actually read before they make assumptions of what the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote what they wrote?

Again, this nation was assumed to be a Judeo-Christian nation, IAW the words of the Founding Fathers, not an Islamic nation, or a Taoist or a Satanist. There is no "Separation of Church and State" in the constitution. Read it yourself. The Founding Fathers had no desire for the government to chuse one "sect" (Christian denomination) over the other, thereby igniting civil conflict. They also did not want the government to do as England had done and created another tax through forcing citizens to tithe to the church.
This is not new or hidden knowledge. It is accesible to anyone who wants to learn.

Polskie, your views are yours, but they are not IAW the U.S. nation. The ten commandments being displayed does not violate the constitution. The constitution is based on natural law, which is God's law, and the ten commandments is the basics of law for the gentile. This used to be understood by even the most elementary of school children, before the 60's and on. All of a sudden, the social reengineer, nation destroying, socialist arse-wipes have people thinking they know more about what the Founding Fathers meant than even the Founding Fathers, as this new-age garbage goes against what they wrote themselves.

And, Polskie, I see why you'd be so offended by a Christian nation, as you advertize a failed system that barred God, except the god of government. The same god that slaughtered millions of its own and caused the deaths of millions others throughout the world. A nation built upon Judeo-Christian ethics and morals ran the communist guidon-bearer into the economic ground. One of your leaders claimed he'd bury us. Funny. We seem to still be here.
There is only one nation that can destroy America, and that is America. It will destroy itself through ignorance, and the ignorance of the foundation of its history is a good beginning to destruction. If you don't know the history, you have not a clue how you got where you are, and without those two points, you cannot shoot an azimuth to a properous future.

Well maybe the Founding Fathers weren't right. Maybe it shouldn't be a separation of just Christian denominations but all religion.

Interesting point, I like that. Could it be possible that they were incorrect?

Who's standards and morals would be used as a basis for law and justice? Contrary to what some will say, there will be somebody's standards in use. Multiculturalism and multibeliefs cannot coexist - one will dominate. This nation was built on a specific set of standards, ethics and principles, and it was their opinion that it would only thrive under those morals. It worked pretty well until those who built the nation became complacent and allowed otehrs to highjack it.

I don't recall the separation of Church and State in the U.S. Constitution but, I dunno, call me crazy, but I do remember seeing it in the Bill of Rights---something called the Establishment Clause which codifies the idea of seapration of Church and State. In fact, if I remember correctly, I think its in the very first right---or First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - Guess what document this came from?

There it is in the Bill of Rights, black and white! And yet you still deny it! Man when those priests pound those ideas in your head nobody can get them out eh?

As for me, I am also an American and I do believe in a higher being, but I do not force my beliefs on other people.

"you advertize a failed system that barred God, except the god of government."


I would never advertise a system of Dictatorship... I assume you think the Soviet Union was "communist"... well it wasn't. It was a dictatorship, Stalin was basicly another Hitler! Go back to High School and learn the difference between... Communism, Socialism, and a Dictatorship before you post again.

Oh and Mr. Crowne, if your going to make fun of Socialists, I'm going to bite back. Integrating religion into the government would suck... big time. All of the right wing facists want to integrate religion and big business into the government... why? Oh yeah... you want more control. Religion is an excellent way of oppressing people and scaring them into supporting you.


I do not want to see my country fall into corruption and turn into a facist dictatorship run by coglamo corporations and the church(who are by the way VERY rich!). I want to see my country run by the people again... I want a true democracy... is that not what you want also?

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by PolskieWojsko]

bill of rights is in the constitution..........

In any event, I found men prostrating themselves in fervent prayer before a stone man-made idol called 'Roy's Rock" in the name of "God" disgusting and filthy.

it really makes me laugh about those christians who were protesting it being removed. I was thinking, it's not affecting your faith, do u believe in God less cuz the building doesn't have the ten commandments in it? and they likely barely if ever looked at it before. Surely christians can't find themselves to be superior to all races, why weren't those christian supremecists arrested! LMAO!!

Colonel, you finally took the time to look at the Bill of rights, did you? Well, I'm impressed, that seems to be more than most Esquires do, so I am proud of you! Now, take the time to read the reasoning behind what they said; it'll help you understand the Establishment Clause much better. It isn't your fault. While you went to college for 6 years, studying case cites and examples, I've spent the last ten years reading about the constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Founding Fathers' words about what they were attempting to accomplish.


Polskie, you are so limited in knowledge that you think that by going to high school that I'll learn what the Bill of Rights means? You must not be far removed from High School if you think that is the case. As far as your desire for this country, I only know what you write and your avatar, which speaks volumes about your political ideology. Apparently, you believe socialism is the preferred system. This has been proven to be a pipe dream over and over, and that brand of B.S. is inconsistent with the founding documentation of this government.
Another newsflash for you, sonny, what you see as the downfall of this nation was the norm for many decades. Your misguided notion of how things ought to be began in the late 50's, fomented by the nation you glorify with your revolting avatar. I'll cover the attempts at socialism later. As a matter of fact, I'll continue this thread later, I'm helping a friend with motor work and am derelict at the job at this time. But I assure you, I'm in no need of public education at this time. As a matter of fact, when you learn what the Founding Fathers intended, then you may feel free to tell me to further my knowledge, and may at that time attempt to suggest ideas at bettering the system. Your knowledge of the system as well as human nature is elementary at best. Are you even aware that the first attempt at governing by Europeans in the New World was socialism? They almost starved that winter. An understanding of human nature makes apparent that attempts at socialism leads to inequality, suffering and dictatorship.

Ben Franklin was not the only Founding Father who eluded to the fact that the only way this experiment in society would succeed was with Judeo-Christian ethics, morals and principles.