Islamic beleifs on the end of time???

ok iv been reading through and can i say have any of you read the quran?? no! because you cant read it in english and retain the same meaning of the word written!

now from my point above, the bible by king james the second is done by man by over 40,000 scriptures that where in aramaic, only sections were taaken out from the old testament and rearanged in the new testament. this is like chinees whispers! the book is written by the thought of man and not by profit(some sections are). you have the teachings and the words of god in one!

in the quran its nothing but the word of god! told by god! the words have never been changed by man as you can take ANY quran and compare them with each other and no word is diffrent! secondly we have the hadith what is the theachs of mohammed (pbuh) what is kept seprately from the quran for the teachings of your current affaris with islam.

is jesus god!
www.youtube.com...

proof he isnt!

A thread pulled out from the ancient depths of ATS .

Many of the people who posted haven't been around in years, but I thought I still might reply to some of their comments. Also, I didn't realise helen was around back then .

First off, such strong assertion that Jesus is God seems odd, as even among themselves, Christians cannot reach consensus on this point. As far as I'm aware, there is no clear and open statement by Jesus claiming he is God. As for unclear statements, there are many for both sides of the argument.

Second, being the Messiah is not the same thing as being God. Ask a jew! Muslims most definitely believe that Jesus was the Messiah. However, using the argument that "The Quran claims Jesus was a prophet of God, but Jesus said he was God, so then the Quran should call him out on being a false prophet" isn't really logical, because Jesus didn't claim to be God. The Bible claims that Jesus is God.
Now while muslims believe that at one point in time the Christian scriptures were true and unadulterated, what we have now is not the same, so they don't have to follow what is in the Bible as true.

I'll reiterate what TheCatalyst said- how can a human being be God? Being in need of food, of water, of bodily functions, capable of being struck down and killed, of injured, being born, these are not properties of God. Add to this that Jesus himself says that he is less than God, that he is not as knowledgeable as God, and that his wishes, desires and wants do not always match up to God's, there is a problem!

reply to post by babloyi


Saying that Christians can't reach a consensus about Jesus being God is not exactly true. The only "parts of Christianity" that don't agree that Jesus is God are the cults [sounds hateful but, that's how they're labeled] like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

There are allusions in the OT of the Messiah being God. The biggest one I can think of off the top of my head is that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, or, "God with us".

[Which Jesus fulfilled because, as "orthodox Christianity" recognizes, Jesus was "God with us". While I'm at it, the name "Jesus"-->"Yeshua"-->"Joshua", means "God saves" or "God is salvation".]

Originally posted by babloyi
how can a human being be God? Being in need of food, of water, of bodily functions, capable of being struck down and killed, of injured, being born, these are not properties of God.

Remember, Christ had a duel nature. He was entirely God and entirely man. Christ paid the price for our sin, which he couldn't do it he was merely a man because he would of had a sin nature and, would've sinned. Only one without blemish could pay the price. The OT sacrificial laws point to this. Christ was our Passover lamb, which had to be unblemished. Christ hungered, thirsted, farted, and died, just like all men do because he was that as well--a man. He was God incarnate. Or God in humanly flesh. Sounds weird to us, but I think God summed it up best through the prophet Isaiah when he said, "my thoughts are not your thoughts neither are my ways your ways" [Paraphrase from memory--Isaiah 55.8]

Add to this that Jesus himself says that he is less than God

This phrase is often misunderstood. It refers to Jesus' "inferiority" to the Father amongst the members of the Trinity as the Son.

that he is not as knowledgeable as God

He's was only unknowledgeable as God as far as the timing of his return goes. Many theologians believe that Jesus, once he ascended back to heaven, gained that knowledge back. It just wasn't for him to know while he was on Earth so that his followers would always be living with the expectation that Christ would be returning soon. The purpose of this would be to get the gospel out. If people knew when he was going to return, they may be a little laxidazical.

that his wishes, desires and wants do not always match up to God's, there is a problem!

I must've missed that part in the Bible. What exactly are you refering to?

reply to post by Truth

I'm sorry Truth, you are wrong. I am a former catholic. Until I started reading the Bible for myself, I never realized the following:

Jesus, in the Bible said, call no man Father except your Father in heaven.
(of course that excludes your parent.) He also said call no man Rabbi, (Jewish) or Master (Buddah).

It basically says keeping people from eating one thing or another is wrong, (fasting from meat on friday during lent)

The New Testament says Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (not priests) The New Testament says belief in Jesus as our Savior will save us, not indulgences from catholic church, or wearing a scapular, etc.

The New and Old Testament says God will judge each individual for the good and bad they do. In the New Testament it calls everybody who believe in Jesus, "saints".

Jesus was NOT calling Peter the Rock on who the church would be built, he was referring to himself, because all through the Bible, Jesus is referred to as the cornerstone, the rock the builders rejected, (hear that, catholic church) etc. It was a play on words, because, Cephas or Peter, means stone.

The Bible says there should only be about two layers of church heirachy and that church leaders should be married to one woman.
The catholic church has about 16 layers of leadership, with the priests being the lowest except for the nuns.

The Pope basically calls himself God by saying he is infalliable. Priests call themselves God by stating in the mass they bring Jesus out of heaven and make him appear on the altar, which is also witchcraft.

The Bible says that Jesus made one sacrifice for all and then it was finished, so by the catholic church celebrating the mass over, and over, they are negating the one-time sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Also, the church says anyone who doesn't believe all their mumbo-jumbo, is anathema, or cursed. One of the things specifically they say is that if people believe Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, they are cursed.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

One last thing, in the Bible, the ten commandments, my Catholic Bible changes the ten commandments, leaving out the part about idols being a representation of anything, such as in heaven, in the sea, on land, etc.

My King James Bible has the full wording, which is very different. And if that is changed, I wonder what else is different. I don't use that Bible anymore.

You should read Revelations the last book of the Bible, if your eyes are open, you will see a description of the catholic church in there.

God Bless You.

p.s. I have lost several catholic friends for pointing all this out to them.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
ok iv been reading through and can i say have any of you read the quran?? no! because you cant read it in english and retain the same meaning of the word written!

now from my point above, the bible by king james the second is done by man by over 40,000 scriptures that where in aramaic, only sections were taaken out from the old testament and rearanged in the new testament. this is like chinees whispers! the book is written by the thought of man and not by profit(some sections are). you have the teachings and the words of god in one!

in the quran its nothing but the word of god! told by god! the words have never been changed by man as you can take ANY quran and compare them with each other and no word is diffrent! secondly we have the hadith what is the theachs of mohammed (pbuh) what is kept seprately from the quran for the teachings of your current affaris with islam.

is jesus god!
www.youtube.com...

proof he isnt!

Hey, anon,

Right now I am reading a very interesting comparison of Islam and it's claims, and Christianity, and it's claims, not done yet, but I plan on reading the rest of it.

You should read it too, and anyone who doesn't believe in the Bible, or who is questioning or doubting.

After all in the Bible it says faith is blessed, but, in the New Testament, Jesus make allowances for the fact that some people need to have proof, ie, the story of Doubting Thomas, and Jesus also appeared to 500 some people after he rose from the dead.

Comparing Islam and Christianity

reply to post by octotom

hey octotom!

Originally posted by octotom
Saying that Christians can't reach a consensus about Jesus being God is not exactly true. The only "parts of Christianity" that don't agree that Jesus is God are the cults [sounds hateful but, that's how they're labeled] like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

Not really true. I've come upon many people (even on this forum) that don't agree with this idea of Jesus being God, and they don't belong to any cult. Some of them say that Jesus is the SON of God, and not God himself, and make a big point on this differentiation. I recommend that you search it out on this forum. You'll be surprised how many opinions there are.

EDIT: SpeakerofTruth will support me on that

Originally posted by octotom
Remember, Christ had a duel nature. He was entirely God and entirely man.

It gets confusing at this point, and enters the realm of what I call (and I swear, no offense) 'wishy-washy theology' (akin to saying stuff like 'There is no spoon' and 'war is peace')- Stuff that sounds cool, but is basically meaningless. How can 1 singular entity be 2 mutually exclusive things at the same time, with reference to the same people? How can 3 completely separate and exclusive things (insomuch as they are referenced separately with different qualities) be one singular thing (and not, as some claim, separate parts of one single thing) with reference to the same thing? I can be 'entirely a father and entirely a son', but those two are with reference to different people. I cannot be a father as well as a son to the same entity.

Originally posted by octotom
This phrase is often misunderstood. It refers to Jesus' "inferiority" to the Father amongst the members of the Trinity as the Son.

If what you say is true, then I choose to worship the Lord God, the One God, the big guy, the main boss, the Father. I totally respect Jesus and what he did, but I don't need a middle man who is inferior to the big guy. There is no precedent to worship Jesus.
As far as my belief goes, God is One, Indivisible. Otherwise what are the Father or Son or Holy Spirit separately? A third of God? Demigods? That is just absurd, and enters into the realm of polytheism.

As to the last part that you quoted, I was talking about when Jesus asked (prayed pretty strongly) that the cup be passed from him and he wouldn't have to do it, but also added that not his will, but God's should be fulfilled.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by babloyi]

he said that he was God the messiah in the bible

Please do tell where he ever said that. He claimed to be the SON of God, not God. He prayed to the Heavenly Father. Unless you want to make the absurd claim that he prayed to himself, it really doesn't make sense. Jesus was never viewed as being God in the flesh until after the mosnstrosity of the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D... You know, a decision your hero Constantine made... Yeah.


[edit on 1-3-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Truth
he said that he was God the messiah in the bible.

I dont believe he did. If memory serves.

If that were true than why would the (koran) call him only a prophet when he himself said he was God??

Is it possible because he was just a prophet... as he claimed? A great man, nonetheless.

If hes a prophet only than he would never say he was God or else
would not he be a liar and a false prophet??

The clergy didnt want to seem like false idol worship so they merged Jesus and God.

A prophet would (never) claim to be the messiah.

But by your logic, Christianity could be just as easily false as Islam! Your only argument seem to be Jesus is God because Jesus says he is God.