Should Ray Nagin be held liable for criminal negligence?

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posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans has been the most featured and vocal personality during this crisis. The mayor is easily the sharpest and most heard critic of the federal government’s efforts after the storm. Mayor Ray Nagin is a household name today.

But there is something that most media outlets have all but over looked: Where was Nagin and what was he doing BEFORE the hurricane? Nagin apparently did nothing but tell the people he represented to evacuate. Sounds like a reasonable action for a mayor in a situation like this, but was that enough? Apparently not.

The people who did not evacuate New Orleans were mostly the poor and low income residents of that city. They simply couldn’t afford to leave. It costs money and resources to evacuate from your home. You need transportation, food and lodging, and spare cash or credit to survive away from home and they didn’t have it. I mentioned in another post that even I couldn’t afford to leave my house for very long even though I am not poor, let alone up and evacuate. I would possibly have stayed too as a result.

Mayor Nagin did not provide his needy residents the means to evacuate, pure and simple. How can this man criticize the federal help in the aftermath when he could have averted a great deal of the human toll of this storm in the first place?

We elect officials to protect and represent us, and not just in everyday life and affairs, but in emergencies and special circumstances. This storm was not a sneak attack and its severity was not a surprise. The Mayor was concerned enough to call for evacuations days before the storm. But he did nothing to help the people who could not leave; he failed these people in the most critical way possible: He allowed them to stay and die.

I suggest Mayor Nagin be held responsible for his amazing lack of competency and absolute neglect of the people who counted on him the most. He simply did not one thing to remove the people who were unable to do it themselves. And out of every single person in that city, he is the MOST responsible decisions such as these.

For each person who has died as a result of this tragedy who WOULD have left if the means were provided them, Mayor Ray Nagin is responsible. It doesn’t go past his desk.

Criminal negligence in the most severe way


[edit on 8-9-2005 by skippytjc]




posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

But he did nothing to help the people who could not leave; he failed these people in the most critical way possible: He allowed them to stay and die.

for his amazing lack of competency and absolute neglect of the people who counted on him the most. He simply did not one thing to remove the people who were unable to do it themselves. And out of every single person in that city, he is the MOST responsible decisions such as these.

Criminal negligence in the most severe way

[edit on 8-9-2005 by skippytjc]


I think you got it backwards, what you are describing is the president...Bush's vacation-delayed response to Katrina.
Bush should be held MOST responsible



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:29 AM
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I see your points, and obviously alot of mistakes were made on many peoples parts...
But personally I give Ray a little respect, while negligent in his duties before the storm, he was very responsible just following, and if only ALL the agencies and officials were as responsive, many lives would have been saved.

SO in short: he screwed up, but did everything he could to makeup...
the Governor still is being scarce... because she didn't call in the national guard from other states to help rescue efforts (her national guard is overseas, I think)
He also didn't try to cooridinate any rescue efforts... it seems like it went from Ray screaming for help from anyone, to finally being answered days later by the inept FEMA organization...
I remember at one point, there was talk of lousiana declaring its own independance, so that it could accept aid from foreign countries without restraint of government red tape...

Wouldn't that have been somethin? I bet france would have backed the deal...

at this time, I hope a full scale investigation is done, (by someone other than bush) I see that the "ROVE" has been called in to do damage control (to bush, not NO)... so the interesting way of blaming without blaming will start soon... and i suspect it will all point away from bush...

I don't blame bush either... but i do think he was a heartless bastard, to ignore the situation as long as he did... and the too little, too late photo opps, just made me sick.... Much like i feel about a guy that walks right by a person dying in the street, because he is late to his vacation...

Responsibility? I am not so worried about blame for the crisis, but blame that nothing was done after the crisis... for so long... while people died...
alot of heros came down in boats to rescue people... they are the true american spirit of caring, and compassion...





[edit on 8-9-2005 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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I guess my entire premiss is that ONLY mayor Nagin was in a position to be PROACTIVE and avoid death. Why critisize efforts after the damage was already done when many of those poeple could have been out of danger before hand. And that is entirely Ray Nagins fault.

If you want to critsize the President, FEMA, Oprah, Sean Penn, and whoever else for the cleanup efforts, then fine. I dont think they were fast enough either. But nothing can detract from the fact that Mayor Nagin could have prevented the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people if he had any compentancy as the person elected by these people to protect them.

He failed his people.

Here is an analogy:

9/11 Who should be held liable? The people who were not able to stop the attack, or the people who cleaned up afterwards?

Nagin had the ability to mitigate the human toll of this storm and did nothing.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by skippytjc]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:41 AM
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Err?

Nagin managed to evacuate 80% of the city.

That is 20% above what is expected by FEMA.

Criminal Negligence? hah.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by Nerdling
Err?

Nagin managed to evacuate 80% of the city.

That is 20% above what is expected by FEMA.

Criminal Negligence? hah.


The 80% that were evacuated could afford to evacuate. The remainder had no choice. They were left to die by their mayor.

At least he met his numbers huh Nerdling? Maybe he will get a raise for it..

edit: pushed wrong button

[edit on 8-9-2005 by Nerdling]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:51 AM
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This whole line of argument is straight out of Fox News. They have been attempting---without success---to blame local officials for this mess, first Governor Kathleen Blanco, then, when that didn't work, they tried to shift the blame to Nagin. That's not flying,either---even with most of the Fox crowd. Why is it that for a guy who wants to be the "era of responsibility" president---Bush never accepts responsibility for anything that goes wrong? It's always about shifting the blame with these neocon traitors,liars, and crooks---they never seem willing to accept their share of responsibility---it was Bush who named as director of FEMA a guy who spent ten years as the director of a horse-breeding association, and put the obviously incompetent Chertoff in charge of Homeland Security---a fascist and Orwellian domestic spy agency with delusions of grandeur that should not even exist. The time has come to replace this entire crew, and Bush's backers are even having a hard time defending the boy idiot on this one. Impeachment is too good for him, it's time to put this administration behind bars where they belong. In my opinion, of course.
---Ryan



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Dont anybody worry.

I seriously doubt ANYONE will be held accountable for this fisco.

I will be willing to bet a few months from now we will be watching them all recieve medals


This was a screw up from the ground up



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
But nothing can detract from the fact that Mayor Nagin could have prevented the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people .
[edit on 8-9-2005 by skippytjc]


Your describing the president again...

It was George Bush who went public saying on September 1 that no one anticipated that New Orleans' levees would break -- even though various federal and state agencies had warned of that scenario.

In his first tour of the devastated region, Bush also praised Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)

How can someone be so dumb to praise FEMA after all this ?

If we are going to point fingers at criminal negligence, Lets point them at the idiots first.......



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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One of the reasons for the "political blame game" is just an attempt to keep the public opinion fixed in what the government is going to do next.

But at the end just like in 9/11 nobody got blame for anything.

Is just a game.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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Well said, XPhiles---the defenders of TeamBush are really reaching to find any reason to back their guy on this one, and throw mud in any direction possible to keep the attention away from the obvious incompetence, uncaring, and beyond criminal negligence of their chosen idiot-in-chief.
---Ryan



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by Nerdling
Err?

Nagin managed to evacuate 80% of the city.

That is 20% above what is expected by FEMA.

Criminal Negligence? hah.


The 80% that were evacuated could afford to evacuate. The remainder had no choice. They were left to die by their mayor.

At least he met his numbers huh Nerdling? Maybe he will get a raise for it..

edit: pushed wrong button

[edit on 8-9-2005 by Nerdling]


Yeah you go girl! Keep sniping at competency.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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No we Americans failed them. We let Bush start a war based on lies and take needed money away from the levy system to fund the Iraq war.
Yes I know the argument they should have paid for that themselves.
But in reality it doesn’t matter whose fault it is because not one dam thing is going to change.
Bush will still appoint people to positions of power that have no experience and are not the best candidate for the job. As will the people elect them, case in point Bush himself. We have the government we deserve atm.
This country is not run on what if best for the people its run on ideology and corporatism.
The American people are the ones to blame for this. They voted in their elected officials and believe the constant stream of propaganda Fox news and others feed them.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 11:05 AM
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Actually the taken over our government is not something that started with Mr. Bush but it happens in the span of the last 25 years.

Mr. Bush is just following the legacy of Mr. Reagen and his father that sold American to corporate power.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
One of the reasons for the "political blame game" is just an attempt to keep the public opinion fixed in what the government is going to do next.

But at the end just like in 9/11 nobody got blame for anything.

Is just a game.


Your right, and just like 9/11 a lot of them will get promotions instead of being fired.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by DiRtYDeViL]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 11:18 AM
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Everyone involved in this "rescue" did a shoddy job. But here a few few facts that the Bush haters like to ignore.

1. The local officials in New Oleans have been through this senario twice before within the last 7 years. Hurricane Ivan in 2004 and hurricane Georges in 1998. In '98 people were sent to the Superdome (approx. 14,000), with no provisions supplied and no security. The result was vandalism and violence. In 2004 people were sent to the Superdome (approx. 1,100) along with 300 guardsmen. So why did they sent people there w/ no provisions and no security in 2005? They can't say they had no idea what was going to happen.

2. The National Guard is deployed by the state governor. It was up to the gov. to see that they were deployed and used wisely.

When Army National Guard units are not mobilized or under federal control, they report to the Governors of their respective state or territory. The President serves as commander-in-chief for units mobilized for federal active duty.

www.arng.army.mil...
FEMA is there to aid the local government, not run the whole show. That's how the system is set up. Is that a shortcoming of the system? Maybe so, but that's the way it is right now.

I'm not saying that FEMA and Bush bear no responcibilty, but I think the Bush bashers need to be aware that the local government is in the drivers seat in a situation like this. They did a good job with some things, but they was so much more they should have done. Things they were capable of. Like deploying the guards and using school busses to get people who wanted out of the city to a safe place.

[edit on 9/8/2005 by yadboy]

[edit on 9/8/2005 by yadboy]

Cripes I can't spell!

[edit on 9/8/2005 by yadboy]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans has been the most featured and vocal personality during this crisis. The mayor is easily the sharpest and most heard critic of the federal government’s efforts after the storm. Mayor Ray Nagin is a household name today.

But there is something that most media outlets have all but over looked: Where was Nagin and what was he doing BEFORE the hurricane? Nagin apparently did nothing but tell the people he represented to evacuate. Sounds like a reasonable action for a mayor in a situation like this, but was that enough? Apparently not.

The people who did not evacuate New Orleans were mostly the poor and low income residents of that city. They simply couldn’t afford to leave. It costs money and resources to evacuate from your home. You need transportation, food and lodging, and spare cash or credit to survive away from home and they didn’t have it. I mentioned in another post that even I couldn’t afford to leave my house for very long even though I am not poor, let alone up and evacuate. I would possibly have stayed too as a result.

Mayor Nagin did not provide his needy residents the means to evacuate, pure and simple. How can this man criticize the federal help in the aftermath when he could have averted a great deal of the human toll of this storm in the first place?

We elect officials to protect and represent us, and not just in everyday life and affairs, but in emergencies and special circumstances. This storm was not a sneak attack and its severity was not a surprise. The Mayor was concerned enough to call for evacuations days before the storm. But he did nothing to help the people who could not leave; he failed these people in the most critical way possible: He allowed them to stay and die.

I suggest Mayor Nagin be held responsible for his amazing lack of competency and absolute neglect of the people who counted on him the most. He simply did not one thing to remove the people who were unable to do it themselves. And out of every single person in that city, he is the MOST responsible decisions such as these.

For each person who has died as a result of this tragedy who WOULD have left if the means were provided them, Mayor Ray Nagin is responsible. It doesn’t go past his desk.

Criminal negligence in the most severe way


[edit on 8-9-2005 by skippytjc]



Skipp i have no words to describe you....

not living in reality doesnt come even close

But anyway read this:
quote:
WASHINGTON Local and state officials wrangled Wednesday over whether to forcibly evict the thousands of people who were refusing to leave the crippled and contaminated city of New Orleans. Military leaders said that despite a mayoral order, they had no intention to force people out.

At the Pentagon, Lieutenant General Joseph Inge, deputy commander of the U.S. Northern Command, said that "regular troops would not be used" in any evacuation. For now, he added, "it's not clear to us what the exact state of the mission is."

Compass later made clear that no one would be forced out just yet. "We have thousands of people who want to voluntarily evacuate," he said. "Once all the voluntary evacuations have taken place, then we'll concentrate our efforts and forces to mandatorily evacuate them."
quote:
WASHINGTON Local and state officials wrangled Wednesday over whether to forcibly evict the thousands of people who were refusing to leave the crippled and contaminated city of New Orleans. Military leaders said that despite a mayoral order, they had no intention to force people out.

At the Pentagon, Lieutenant General Joseph Inge, deputy commander of the U.S. Northern Command, said that "regular troops would not be used" in any evacuation. For now, he added, "it's not clear to us what the exact state of the mission is."

Compass later made clear that no one would be forced out just yet. "We have thousands of people who want to voluntarily evacuate," he said. "Once all the voluntary evacuations have taken place, then we'll concentrate our efforts and forces to mandatorily evacuate them."
iht.com...



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 06:36 PM
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Just like 9/11, the president had every warning and did nothing.
Just like 9/11, those really responsible will not be held accountable.
Just like 9/11, the president said, "Who could have known"??? when it was very well known.
Just like 9/11, the president is blaming those in his administration (CIA, FEMA) instead of standing like a real man.
Just like 9/11, the president is going for the all-important photo op (only this time, it's backfiring)
Just like 9/11, information is being hidden, photos are being hushed and facts are being distorted.
Just like 9/11, the president himself wasn't in any hurry to respond.

BUT... Unlike 9/11, we the people know better than to believe his photo ops and his 'good old boy' joking around ("Brownie, you're doing a fine job! heh-heh") We know better than to believe that he's done all he could. We are wiser, more discerning. Well, most of us are. We are taking it to the top.



But, nationally, these are leaders who won re-election last year largely by portraying their opponents as incapable of keeping the country safe. These are leaders who regularly pressure the news media in this country to report the reopening of a school or a power station in Iraq, and defies its citizens not to stand up and cheer. Yet they couldn't even keep one school or power station from being devastated by infrastructure collapse in New Orleans — even though the government had heard all the "chatter" from the scientists and city planners and hurricane centers and some group whose purposes the government couldn't quite discern... a group called The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.


The 'City' of Louisiana

Mayor Nagin undoubtedly made mistakes, so did the governor, but the lion's share of this disaster rests in the hands of the one person whose signature could have saved NOLA. In a catastrophe of this size and scope, you gotta go to the top.

So, no, Mayor Nagin should not be charged with anything at all. I honestly do believe he did his best, which is a lot more than I can say for others involved.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]





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