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The Forgiveness Conspiracy?

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posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 12:46 AM
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I happen to be a man of no particular religious denomination, but I am writing this in context of Christianity in general. So if you happen to be Hindu, Muslim, Pagan or whatever, please try to look at this though the eyes of how a christian might view it.

Forgiveness is taught in every christian religion that I know of. Whether it's praying for forgiveness for personal sins, forgiving someone who has wronged us, or walking into a confession booth, it's a staple of christianity. So the conspiracy is this: Why are christians taught to hate Satan instead of forgiving him of his sins against us?

If God can forgive us of our sins, why can't he forgive Satan? Or even better, what if the whole of Christianity got on their knees and forgave Satan of his sins?

If all christians forgave Satan, wouldn't God have to forgive him as well, being that he is perfect and therefore better than us? If Satan was forgiven, what happens them? And what would happen to Christianity as a whole if this were to happen? Is this why I have never heard of this before? Is it a conspiracy to keep religion alive? Please share your thoughts an comments on this.




posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 12:57 AM
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Uh, not a CONSPIRACY! Not even a mystery!

Satan is full of pride, and fully expects to unseat his Creator one day. That's what all the hub-bub will be about during the Tribulation.

We have to ask forgiveness. This be the case, wouldn't Satan? He has no intention of doing that.

Remember, also, that we are not angels, but humans. Hell wasn't created for us, but Satan and the fallen angels. We earned a place in Hell, but God worked in the Divine intervention that does not violate the Law. Christ was the sacrifice to wash away the sin. We have to ask for it, though.

I'm going to move this over to spirituality and theology, as there will be people there who can do a much better job than I at explaining it.

By the way, a VERY good question, thirddensity!



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Uh, not a CONSPIRACY! Not even a mystery!

Satan is full of pride, and fully expects to unseat his Creator one day. That's what all the hub-bub will be about during the Tribulation.

We have to ask forgiveness. This be the case, wouldn't Satan? He has no intention of doing that.

Remember, also, that we are not angels, but humans. Hell wasn't created for us, but Satan and the fallen angels. We earned a place in Hell, but God worked in the Divine intervention that does not violate the Law. Christ was the sacrifice to wash away the sin. We have to ask for it, though.

I'm going to move this over to spirituality and theology, as there will be people there who can do a much better job than I at explaining it.

By the way, a VERY good question, thirddensity!


Thanks for the compliment and the additional knowledge you shared. . I didn't factor in the angel-human part of it.

So could we as humans forgive angels? If we all forgave Satan for temptation and the things he tries to empower us to do, wouldn't that solve the problem right there? After all if he was completley forgiven, he would have no power. Correct?

Since you brought up the tribulation, that leads me to another thought on the same line? What about the antichrist? Could we forgive him? In my limited knowledge of things, I do believe that the antichrist will have an actual body of flesh and blood that would make him human. So what if eveyone forgave him?



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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well first off, satan has already been judged in a court (white throne court).
second , forgiveness FOLLOWS repentance. Last time I checked, satan is still rebelling. hes murdered so many people (or conspiracy to commit) in his conquest to replace God as god.

Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(note that most conspiracies of today involve banking. i wonder if thats a coincidence).



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by thirddensity
So could we as humans forgive angels? If we all forgave Satan for temptation and the things he tries to empower us to do, wouldn't that solve the problem right there? After all if he was completley forgiven, he would have no power. Correct?


Satan doesn't try to empower anybody to do anything,Satan doesn't exist it's a myth that attempts to excuse man from responsibility for there own actions and weaknesses."Evil" is not some entity or external force which preys upon man it comes from within an aspect of the base desires of human nature.
Temptation is brought about by what ? Having a desire for something that religion has deemed moraly unacceptable,the desire is human nature not Satan trying to trick you for some abstract reason.
Think about it rationally these are concepts which originate from a time of superstition and ignorance it defies belief that today people still hold on to these flawed concepts of Satan and heaven and hell.

The only conspiracy is the one that clings to the concept of their being a physical manifestation of evil who preys on mankind.

[edit on 8/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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if u want to take the position satan doesnt exist fine. thats not biblically tenable. And since this is a bible discussion (u cant bring up xtainity without it).
Here are all the verses I can find (some from the very mouth of Jesus) that talk about a specific adversary/devil/satan. there are also many places that talk about generic devils.


matt 4:1
matt 13:39
matt 25:41 (this is a big one)
luke 4:5
john 8:44
ephesians 4:27
ephesians 6:11
1 titus 3:6-7
james 4:7
1john 3:10
Jude 1:9 (this is a big one)
rev 2:10
rev 12:9 (great one that gives other names)
rev 20:2, 10.

other names
ephesians 2:2
1Jo 2:18
john 16:11
1 corinthians 5:5
luke 10:18

ok now for OLD TESTAMENT
Genesis 3
1 chronicles 21:1
job CHAPTER 1-2
psalms 109:6
zechariah 3:2

Ezekiel 28
Isiah 14

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

your right thou. not everything is satans fault.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 08:15 AM
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Could someone please guide this sinner with respect to one of the many paradoxes thrown up by the Holy Bible. God and Satan may not be able to answer this as directly as a principled person.

This is no doubt elementary to some.

Of the following paradigms, which should I be guided by?

* an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth

* turning the other cheek.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 09:04 AM
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Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

private conduct in this (meaning personal life).this doesnt regard the obvious necessary court system, which still operates on the eye for eye principle. and in the end God will judge all.



posted on Sep, 8 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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I think Thomas Crowne said it very well, and thirddensity, you did ask a great question!

The reason for the Christian focus on forgiveness and repentance (i.e. correcting the behavior) is because Jesus Christ came, taught, and died for our sins that we may be forgiven. This salvation applies to individuals.

As MaskedAvatar pointed out, there is seemingly a contradiction in the Bible. Exodus 21:23-25 states,


23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


While Matthew 5:38-39, as NuTroll points out, says quite the opposite. This may seem confusing at first, unless we look at the context of these two sections. At that point in Exodus, the laws of Israel were being established. This was how their legal system was to work, what was crime and reciprocated punishment.

The problem in Jesus’ time was that the Jews had misinterpreted this scripture as applying to their own personal behavior, instead of a legal sense. People were seeking personal revenge, essentially not trusting in God to do what is just and not trusting in the legal framework God gave Israel to be sufficient. Jesus was correcting this misconception.

Back to the original question (that was related, in a sense; my mind's just a wee bit more scattered than most
), John 1:29 states (emphasis added):


The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Christ took away the sin of the world, but Satan is not of the world. He was originally of heaven, but has made his lair here on earth. You and I, being part of the world, cannot pass from this place to heaven and back again, going when we please. Satan can, as is evidenced in the book of Job 2:1-2:


1 On another day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."


Satan is already separated from the angels at this time, but comes with them when they present themselves to God. He is not man, and the salvation Christ granted was for all of humanity. Angels have different rules than we do. What those rules are, we don't know; I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that talks about governance of angelic beings, only what their functions are. (Another piece of good news from this passage is that Satan is not omniscient, nor is he everywhere at once. He must roam through the Earth.)



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by NuTroll
if u want to take the position satan doesnt exist fine. thats not biblically tenable. And since this is a bible discussion (u cant bring up xtainity without it).


It doesn't have to be biblically tenable,just because it's in the bible or any other book for that matter doesn't mean it's so.
Take your head out of the bible for ten minutes and look around you at the real world without the blinkers of christianity.Satan is a concept created in the human mind,the need to explain why they have desire to do things that christian morality forbids.



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