POLITICS: Yahoo 'helped jail China writer'

Originally posted by JIMC5499
The Chinese Government is going to be there whether Yahoo does business in China or not. Your arguement about the CCP is perfectly valid, but why blame Yahoo?

Does the term 'aiding and abetting' mean anything? I blame Microsoft, Yahoo and Google as accomplices to the supression of the truth and participants in a system that persecutes and tortures people.

The only way to remove the CCP is going to be through the Chinese people. They only way that is going to happen is by them learning about the horse manure that their government is shoveling them.

Very true. But how are they supposed to find out the truth if these large companies assist the CCP in hiding the truth from the citizens? They have no way to get the information; and Yahoo, etc. are helping to keep them in the dark, for money.

Originally posted by Duzey
Very true. But how are they supposed to find out the truth if these large companies assist the CCP in hiding the truth from the citizens? They have no way to get the information; and Yahoo, etc. are helping to keep them in the dark, for money.

We have had Chinese engineers and technicians visiting out facilities in the US for several years now. These people have been exposed to life outside China and I can't believe that they are not telling some of their friends and family how things are. If Microsoft and Yahoo are as good at monitoring the usage of their goods and services as you say they are then I guess I don't have to renew my anti-virus software because they are going to catch all of the people creating viruses and turn them over to the government. For every person that the Chinese catch ther are probably 10 who are not caught. However if businesses like Microsoft and Yahoo stop doing business in China there will be no outlets for the information that reporter was posting. There will also be no inflow of information and the CCP will have the closed society that they need to stay in power. Whether it is intentional or not Western businesses will eventually help in the demise of the CCP.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
However if businesses like Microsoft and Yahoo stop doing business in China there will be no outlets for the information that reporter was posting. There will also be no inflow of information and the CCP will have the closed society that they need to stay in power. Whether it is intentional or not Western businesses will eventually help in the demise of the CCP.

Now you're taking your theory and running with it just a little too far. The CCP let Microsoft and Yahoo into China, and the CCP decided to let the Internet happen in China, not the other way around. The Chinese are very good at software and Internet technology; you'd be surprised. They don't need Microsoft and Yahoo to set things up for them, but they have chosen to let them in, so that they can copy the tech and expertise (which they already have done en masse) to further kick-start the economy, the success of which is what is keeping the masses happy at the moment, and so they can get the huge foreign investment that these companies bring.

The problem for the CCP is they want their cake and want to eat it too; they want the economic vitality that depends on modern communications, but they want to maintain their Stalinist control over information, media, and thought. What a conundrum for them. That's why they spend hundreds of millions on projects to filter, monitor and control the Internet and even SMS messaging. And some foreign companies are actively assisting them to do this. I have a friend who worked for Lucen Technologies in Shanghai who, in conjunction with China Telecom, assisted to install mobile phone text messaging monitoring software and hardware. They knew exactly what they were installing and what it was going to be used for, but they didn't care because they are making an absolute killing from it (pun intended).

You almost had me convinced, until you started inferring that Microsoft and Yahoo are instruments in forcing or facilitating a revolution in China. They are there because they want to be there, despite the moral issues of dealing with the devil, and they are there because the CCP wants them there. I can just see the headlines 20 years from now: "Bill Gates Brings Democracy to China!"

[edit on 2005-9-8 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Now you're taking your theory and running with it just a little too far. The CCP let Microsoft and Yahoo into China, and the CCP decided to let the Internet happen in China, not the other way around. The Chinese are very good at software and Internet technology; you'd be surprised. They don't need Microsoft and Yahoo to set things up for them, but they have chosen to let them in, so that they can copy the tech and expertise (which they already have done en masse) to further kick-start the economy, the success of which is what is keeping the masses happy at the moment, and so they can get the huge foreign investment that these companies bring.

The problem for the CCP is they want their cake and want to eat it too; they want the economic vitality that depends on modern communications, but they want to maintain their Stalinist control over information, media, and thought. What a conundrum for them. That's why they spend hundreds of millions on projects to filter, monitor and control the Internet and even SMS messaging. And some foreign companies are actively assisting them to do this. I have a friend who worked for Lucen Technologies in Shanghai who, in conjunction with China Telecom, assisted to install mobile phone text messaging monitoring software and hardware. They knew exactly what they were installing and what it was going to be used for, but they didn't care because they are making an absolute killing from it (pun intended).

You almost had me convinced, until you started inferring that Microsoft and Yahoo are instruments in forcing or facilitating a revolution in China. They are there because they want to be there, despite the moral issues of dealing with the devil, and they are there because the CCP wants them there. I can just see the headlines 20 years from now: "Bill Gates Brings Democracy to China!"

[edit on 2005-9-8 by wecomeinpeace]

I am not stating that these companies are saints and should be given any credit for what will be the eventual demise of the CCP. The fact that they offer something that the CCP wants and is willing to allow their "society " to run the risk of contamination by allowing these companies to do business in China opens a door that otherwise wouldn't be there. It is this doorway that will lead to their downfall.

Read up on the fall of the USSR it was the opening of their society to the West that caused the Berlin Wall to be ripped down. Back in the 70's when they opened the first McDonald's in Moscow it fortold of the eventual downfall of the USSR. Did McDonald's have anything to actually do with it? No.

It will take time because the CCP will use more direct means to quell any uprising, but it will happen. Will Microsoft or Yahoo deserve any of the credit for it. No.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
We have had Chinese engineers and technicians visiting out facilities in the US for several years now. These people have been exposed to life outside China and I can't believe that they are not telling some of their friends and family how things are.

The problem with this is that many Chinese people simply do not believe what is reported in the Western press about the CCP. To them, it is Western 'lies'. The CCP is probably one of the 'best' at manipulating domestic and foreign press. This is a routine they have been practicing for years, and they are very, very good at it.

If Microsoft and Yahoo are as good at monitoring the usage of their goods and services as you say they are then I guess I don't have to renew my anti-virus software because they are going to catch all of the people creating viruses and turn them over to the government.

There's really no money in that. There is a huge amount of money in catering to the largest population of internet users in the world.

Besides, this isn't aimed at the average Chinese user directly. This story FredT posted is about freedom of the press to report without fear of reprisals. The denial of ignorance.

For every person that the Chinese catch ther are probably 10 who are not caught. However if businesses like Microsoft and Yahoo stop doing business in China there will be no outlets for the information that reporter was posting.

Like my buddy, wcip.

But again, I am very leery of sending him anything that might be considered subversive. I don't want him to be deported.

But there are ways around the censors, and not one of them is provided by these companies. Microsoft, Google and Yahoo are not the only game in town for Chinese people.

There will also be no inflow of information and the CCP will have the closed society that they need to stay in power. Whether it is intentional or not Western businesses will eventually help in the demise of the CCP.

Most Western countries are helping to keep the CCP in power. By turning a blind eye to the human rights issue in China so we can take advantage of the cheap good produced in horrible conditions and sell them things. The CCP considers the torture and imprisonment of it's citizens as a 'domestic issue' and most every government in the world goes along with it. That does not make it morally correct.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Originally posted by JIMC5499
The CCP's only way to remain in power is to keep China a closed society. The influx of technology and ideas from the rest of the world is going to be the first chink in the armour of the CCP.

Good point. This I can agree with.

However, I somehow doubt that Yahoo is looking at the situation as altruistically as yourself.

[edit on 2005-9-7 by wecomeinpeace]

Then why has China been allowing village level direct democracy?

I don't know if I would consider an election where only one party is permitted to run a democracy.

Does that make China a democracy? Members of the CCP vote for their officials.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
...these companies to do business in China opens a door that otherwise wouldn't be there. It is this doorway that will lead to their downfall.

As I posted above, the Chinese are VERY good at Internet technology. They can and do develop it themselves, it's just easier at the moment to buy the already developed tech from Western countries. Without Yahoo and MS, China would still have the Internet, so there's no altruistic compromise that Yahoo and MS are making to "free the Chinese" at the price of assisting to imprison enemies of the CCP.

Read up on the fall of the USSR...

Give me a bit of credit for having some measure of intelligence, please. And most people just say glasnost to describe the trigger you mentioned. No need to spell it all out.

It will take time because the CCP will use more direct means to quell any uprising, but it will happen. Will Microsoft or Yahoo deserve any of the credit for it. No.

I agree. I've always maintained in my rantings against the CCP that their greed, the opening up of China to the outside world, and the flow of information that causes will be their downfall. But as far as Western dot coms aiding tyranny is concerned, there's no excuse...actually, come to think of it, there are a few hundred billion excu$e$.

[edit on 2005-9-8 by wecomeinpeace]

Wait a minute! Using the logic I am seeing in some of these posts, are you saying it is OK for a US company to place a human being in peril in the name of complying with some host nation policy, rule or law?

I suppose then it would be OK for YAHOO to disclose to China the personal information of western journalists in China trying to expose the injustices of Chinese governance? Or how about Syria, Lybia, Algeria, Iran...? Yeah, that makes sense!

We wouldn't tolerate this from anyone else, but because YAHOO is an American corporation, it's OK as long as it doesn't interfere with the commercial objectives of the corporation.

Ridiculous.

Originally posted by loam
... are you saying it is OK for a US company to place a human being in peril in the name of complying with some host nation policy, rule or law?

...because YAHOO is an American corporation, it's OK as long as it doesn't interfere with the commercial objectives of the corporation.

Corporate employees routinely move around the world - and consequently, lose their rights of American citizenship while offshore. They have the protection of the corporation, and are subject to corporate rule. It is a common situation in professional spheres, and has been accepted for decades.

Perhaps that's why so few notice the erosion of the American Constitution, and the loss of rights in America.

Originally posted by Duzey
I don't know if I would consider an election where only one party is permitted to run a democracy.

Does that make China a democracy? Members of the CCP vote for their officials.

You don't even know what Direct Democracy is, do you?

Yes, I do in fact. It is where citizens have the power through referendums. But the referendums are put forth by the political party in power.

And when there is only one political party in power you will only be able to vote for referendums that suit that particular parties agenda. Direct democracy in China is an excercise in public relations. A nice way for them to point and say 'Look we're trying' and let people feel they are part of the process.

China calls itself the People's Republic as well. That doesn't make them one.

You are half right and half wrong.

Direct Democracy allows the public to challenge laws.

It allows them to hold referendums on the laws if they get a set percentage of the local [area/state/county/canton/etc] population to put their name down for holding such a vote. The Government then doesn't get the power to avoid the vote and on the next referendum that is being held they get their chance.

Normally to change a law it requires a majority or super-majority to edit part of a constitution.

The Government also get to put laws up they would like to have the publics knowledge on. From what I know [speaking to Chinese students] it is why they are being paid for by the Government to study politics over in the U.K. as well as English.

Then I'm doing better than usual.

Do you think that the jailing of dissidents, reporters such as the one in this story and religious prisoners gives the Chinese people confidence that they can come forward and sign their real names on demands for reform to be put forward in a referendum?

It's hard to know how well it will work but to me it is a step in the right direction.

People forget that Hu Jintao only came into power in 2002 and only gained control of the Army in the last year.

China is split between the "Old" and "New" Communists and Hu Jintao seems to be of the newer branch. Although he has made some poor decisions he seems to be pushing China in the right direction and once the people realise this then it will move China forward and not back.

People need to remember Hu Jintao has tried to give a more open China an a more open Chinese Government. He was the leader who looked into Jury service, allowing religion, etc but only time will tell if he sticks to these ideas and pushes for them.

People did have some hope when Hu came into power, but he has not done anything to improve the human rights issues in China. Censorship has increased, not decreased.

These are my problems with the CCP, not how they run their government. Sure, I would be happy if they had some form of democracy and a choice of political parties; but honestly, my main concern is the treatment of the press and human rights issues.

Hu just left my city and he wouldn't even come out to see his greeters (all wearing little nametages so you would know they were the good guys) because he didn't want to see the protesters. That doesn't sound like the actions of a man who welcomes any sort of disagreement.

He was then escorted downtown by RCMP and Vancouver police and through the back door of the Westin Bayshore Hotel, allowing him to avoid the sight of Falun Gong and other anti-Communist protesters.

But he also missed out on a warm welcome from about 500 well-wishers from Vancouver's Chinese community, who showed up waving Chinese flags and wearing red paper tags that labelled them as "greeters." Many of them were organized and bused to the hotel by various business, community and social groups.

Vancouver Sun

There were 400 protesters there, almost as large a group as the greeters.

Outside, around 400 protesters outside slammed his government's human-rights record.

Vancouver Province

This way when the pictures of his visit to the West are shown back home, nobody will see any of the protests and signs. Pretty slick and another example of how good they are at manipulating the press.

But you forget one important issue, Hu Jintao only gained control of the Central Military Commission in March. That was only 6months ago prior to that any major changes which he attempted could have resulted in a massive Civil War or War within the Party which could have been a lot worse.

Hu Jintao will also be careful to not make the same mistake Mao did during the Cultural Revolution, which in fact attempt to install a level of direct democracy in China and failed [due to the problem with the Government.] Also again, at the moment out of the 9 main leaders in China 6 of them are hard-line old School Communists. You only have 3 who are not and those are the ones attempting to push forward the reforms.

It's a tiem consuming process. During the early period Hu has had the Government look into introducing it and has made pushes for it but you have to do such a thing slowly - over years [decades in fact] especailly with such a large population. It is better that this control is slowly lifted rather than all at once because their are more risks with that. The Chinese people during the 1980's and 1990's were institutionalised by the Government and treated like prisoners. This is changed - their ability to leave China [for holidays] for the first time, is an example of this.

Reforming the government processes will take time, and would be best done in steps. That doesn't mean that they can't do something about freedom of the press and human rights now.

Should we just sit back quietly and say nothing while they systematically imprison people that they think might be some sort of threat to their power? Lot's of people fall under this heading: reporters, religious practioners, political prisoners and lawyers who fight the system too hard, too many times.

Until they take care of this problem it doesn't matter how many democratic reforms they introduce, in my opinion. How can people make informed decisions when large parts of the truth and differing opinions are blocked from them?

But doesn’t every Government imprison people who are a threat to their power? A lot of us do not live in China and it is only logical to assume that with such a high percentage of the World’s population there will be a high level of terrorism and a higher level of false imprisonment. I’m not attempting to justify such things however it is easy for peaceful protests to become violent - I’ve been at a few and then the judgement falls upon the Government and the Judiciary.

The introduction of Jury Trials will help increase the chances of people who are involved in ’subversive’ activities getting let off however removing the media control will give a reverse effect. Allowing the media to have free-run actually causes a lot of damage, which can already be seen in the Western World. A lot of people do not know that to convict someone they have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as well as many other factors so I think removing the media control needs to come after they begin to allow Jury trials.

The fact Hu Jintao has began to push for a more open Chinese Government shows their willingness to change that is a major step in the right direction and another thing to remember is how low China’s prison population in fact is.

China: 110/100,000
United States of America: 700/100,000
Russia: 665/100,000
United Kingdom: 125/100,000

When the statistics are taken into account China has a tiny prison population, only 1.43million people compared to the United States which has 1.93million people. This to me goes against the idea that “Speaking out gets you locked up” because China doesn’t have the prisons to do such a thing and actually goes against their policy on prisons, which is a lot more ‘community work-based’ programs and in turn has resulted in China having one of the lowest re-offender rates in the World.

A lot of people also forget that Hu Jintao has began to push Human Rights Legislation through to get that change into place as soon as they can. As I have reported before Torture is actually illegal in China and has been since 1958 and they have tried several people for using torture.

A few recent laws include:
International Convention on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights signed in1997 (ratified in March 2001).
International Convention on Civil and Political Rights in October 1998 (not yet ratified).

People also forget that the CCP released hundreds of people in 2002 who were political and religious prisoners and began to allow the United Nation's to look around their prisons. Annoyingly, people always want things to happen 'now' and forget they take time. Let alone in a Nation of 1/5th of the World's population. Common sense says it would take even longer in such a Nation yet people refuse to acknowledge their steps in the right direction which isn't good for anyone.

Originally posted by Odium
But doesn’t every Government imprison people who are a threat to their power?

No, several countries have things called the 'Official Opposition'. They get their own offices and cushy seats in Parliament.

I’m not attempting to justify such things however it is easy for peaceful protests to become violent - I’ve been at a few and then the judgement falls upon the Government and the Judiciary.

Could have surprised me. Your posts come close to sounding like a justification for religious persecution and imprisoning reporters and political dissenters.

I've also been at protests and they can quite easily stay non-violent as well. At least we are allowed to protest. The Chinese can't without permission.

Allowing the media to have free-run actually causes a lot of damage, which can already be seen in the Western World. A lot of people do not know that to convict someone they have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as well as many other factors so I think removing the media control needs to come after they begin to allow Jury trials.

The CCP hasn't done their job of educating people on the legal system, along with other things. Why should other people be put in jail for their failings?

As for the media causing problems; if there weren't atrocities to report, that wouldn't be a problem.

The fact Hu Jintao has began to push for a more open Chinese Government shows their willingness to change that is a major step in the right direction and another thing to remember is how low China’s prison population in fact is.

The figures you have quoted come from 2003. Only one year after Hu took power. We don't know how much it has grown since the persecution of Falun Gong members has been stepped up.

China falls right in the middle on numbers in prison. That doesn't make them 'low', that makes them about average.

These numbers don't reflect on Hu as they are from early in his term.

When the statistics are taken into account China has a tiny prison population, only 1.43million people compared to the United States which has 1.93million people. This to me goes against the idea that “Speaking out gets you locked up” because China doesn’t have the prisons to do such a thing and actually goes against their policy on prisons, which is a lot more ‘community work-based’ programs and in turn has resulted in China having one of the lowest re-offender rates in the World.

The US has the highest rates of imprisonment on the planet, much higher than any other country. They should not be used for comparison purposes as they are an anomaly.

China does have labour and reeducation camps where they send religious prisoners. Being imprisoned for your religious beliefs sounds an awful lot like being jailed for 'speaking out'. This is the same religion that was praised by the CCP for years, until they held a peaceful protest.

A lot of people also forget that Hu Jintao has began to push Human Rights Legislation through to get that change into place as soon as they can. As I have reported before Torture is actually illegal in China and has been since 1958 and they have tried several people for using torture.

I could post pictures of people tortured for you. I could also post an interview with one of the former prison superintendants detailing the things his guards did. I have the links at home, and would be more than happy to provide them.

Just because it is illegal, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

People also forget that the CCP released hundreds of people in 2002 who were political and religious prisoners and began to allow the United Nation's to look around their prisons.

They do that from time to time. Release some people and then arrest some more to take their place. It's called 'optics'.

Annoyingly, people always want things to happen 'now' and forget they take time.

Let's make a deal. I'll try not to be so annoying, if you try not to be so condescending. Actually, no I won't. I've been going on about human rights in China for over 20 years. I'm not stopping because you don't have a problem with forced labour, religious persecution, torture and reeducation.

Common sense says it would take even longer in such a Nation yet people refuse to acknowledge their steps in the right direction which isn't good for anyone.

Common sense also dictates that people should not support a regime which routinely imprisons and tortures people for religious belief.

[edit on 19-9-2005 by Duzey]