People died who did not believe the Government when told to evacuate

They had evacuated before for the other storms and it costs money to leave, stay in hotels, eat out, money these people just didn't have. They hesitated to leave because they simply couldn't afford another false alarm.

Each time they had evacuated, it was a wasted expense. People lost their jobs because they had evacuated and couldn't get back home to go to work.

It's pretty easy for me to look out in the driveway and see 2 vehicles full of gas and know that if I had to, I'd evacuate and have plenty of money to even relocate if I had to, but that's just not the situation with the majority of the people there.

Hey, yo. Let me tell you something.

I grew up poor. I grew up moving between apartments we had to go without food to afford even though they were hell holes to live in. I grew up in and out of homeless shelters. My parents worked their butts off to try to get us "out of poverty." My father has a master's degree in psychology from an accredited university. He couldn't find a good living wage job, despite that. Now I suffer from serious health problems because of how we lived when I was a child, but I'm still trying my damndest to "get out of poverty."

I chose long ago, as did my parents before me, to "not be a victim." But I am a victim of society's ills. That is a fact. I don't want to be treated like a victim. There is a difference. I don't want sympathy or underserved help for it. All I want is to survive, and find a little spot in the sun now and then, where I can find some small measure of happiness and get away from the derogatory, narrow minded class bigotry of people like you.

Bravo! Acewombat04, I just voted you for the way above award..

It shows great drive and initiative for you to post hear and straighten a few people out, not that I half any animosity towards them. We are so lucky(?) in this country of ours America that I love to have free speech and can put all of our minds and ideas together. Sometimes it takes years of living to find out the truth that is out there. Then again some people will never get it. I agree that there is alot of good input here. We definitely need to review what went wrong in this situation just like we did in 9/11...did we not?

But we can learn alot faster by reading these forums and peoples opinions than perhaps having to learn by experiencing things (I hope)..great job guys!


Again, kudos for your courage for posting and perspective on this issue!!

[edit on 9/8/2005 by mercury19]

[edit on 9/8/2005 by mercury19]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I guess maybe I'm looking at the picture from a bigger perspective.

It was known that the levees would not hold up to this kind of storm in 1962. It was public knowledge to the locals.

SO, am I to believe that all those who feel the residents are devoid of any responsability for their government in a DEMOCRACY?

Why wasn't the collective consciousness acting on their own behalf?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1962?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1963?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1964?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1965?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1966?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1967?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1968?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1969?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1970?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1971?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1972?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1973?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1974?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1975?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1976?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1977?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1978?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1979?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1980?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1981?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1982?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1983?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1984?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1985?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1986?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1987?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1988?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1989?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1990?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1991?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1992?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1993?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1994?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1995?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1996?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1997?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1998?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 1999?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2000?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2001?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2002?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2003?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2004?

Where were the citizens of New Orleans in uproar in 2005?

Cool, you're ignoring this, doesn't make it go away though.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
4) The people had 40+ years to get over thier complacency.

Huh? I would think that 40+ years is what would create complacency.

I think I'll avoid 40+ posts but I don't think that will change much.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

The ones who held positions of responsibility are placed in positions of responsibility by people who are not responsible for those in positions of responsibility?

Simply, yes, in this instance. You need to consider the power deception and self-deception plays in politics before you can assume we live in a perfect democracy where every citizen can be held responsible for their elected leaders.

Let me explain with the following example: By your logic, everyone it Tokyo and LA should completely evacuate these massive cities and leave them to gather dust. Why? Because they know very well in those places that any day, any minute, the "Big One" is going to come that could destroy the city. But they don't.

For a nation to prosper, people have to live in large amounts on coasts. The people on the west coast live in earthquake central. The people on the south coast live in hurricane central. Should they all move to the east coast? What's the point? They could get hit by a terrorist attack. There is only so much responsibility people can take upon themselves as members of a society before that society breaks down.

What they *do* do, is they elect leaders who talk about things like safety projects and evacuation plans and earthquake proof engineering. These leaders may produce some results, the media approves or dissapproves accordingly, and the masses are content in the belief that they are protected as best as they can be. Yet even despite the show of competance by the leaders, only a minority of people will stop and think to themselves, 'even with all we have, a 9+ Richter earthquake will kill us all.' The illusion of security, deliberatly or not, is provided by the elite and then accepted by the majority.

This is the way it works, and its why in a proper society blame travels up, and not down. The people at the bottom are not, as we in democracies like to fool ourselves, the ones ultimately responsible for their leaders. They have great power to influence them and the policies they create, of course. But when the vast majority of people in a democracy decide to delegate their safety to elected officials, those officials (and their agencies) become responsible, because they are given the tools they need to know of threats and prepare for them much more so than the individual. What happens instead is that those officials do the minimum necessary to appease the majority in practicially every instance.

I believe in personal responsibility, but only as much as is practical. I don't find it practical to hold others to such a high standard when leaders and officials within a society don't first meet those standards. I can't change everyone, but I can change- to a degree- the structure of the society in which I live, because it's the best way to mediate the problems caused by individuals, acts of god, wars, and the like. The alternative would be to live as some kind of pariah-hermit.

-koji K.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by koji_K]

[edit on 8-9-2005 by koji_K]

Originally posted by koji_K
I don't find it practical to hold others to such a high standard when leaders and officials within a society don't first meet those standards.
-koji K.

First, I understand the points you made. Well stated.

Second thought concerning the quote above:

I don't see how it could be practical to hold the leaders and officials to such high standards when they come from a society where every individual falls into the train of thought that it is not practical to have all the populas held to a the high standards that we demand from our leaders and officials.

I believe that the local and state government would have to be responsible for a mass exodus of the poor and elderly. Now, in the aftermath of this tragedy, how are we to deal with potentially destructive storms in the future?

When a catagory 4 or stronger hurricane is forcasted to make landfall in a certain area, should the government forcefully remove unwilling people from their homes or just provide the means for evacuation to anyone who wants to freely go?

This is among the many things that local and state governments must decide on in cases such as this.

It's like the guy who got killed on a motorcycle a couple of weeks ago when he struck a minivan head-on doing 150 MPH. The government makes laws to govern his speed. It was his choice entirely to go that fast and now he's dead. What more could the government have done to save this guys life?

I can't think of anything.

Originally posted by intrepid


Cool, you're ignoring this, doesn't make it go away though.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
4) The people had 40+ years to get over thier complacency.

Huh? I would think that 40+ years is what would create complacency.

Wasn't ignoring it. Did not consider that it required a response.

I took it another way, I guess.

Yes, 40+ years of acceptance does qualify as complacency.

Yes, the people of the affected reagion had 40+ years to get over that complacency.

No, they did not overcome their complacency because the government failed them?



[edit on 8-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

No, you still don't get it. 40+ years add to the complacency.

If it didn't happen to Grandad, Dad, is it going to happen to me?

Getting any clearer?

Why aren't individual Americans responsible for the democracy in which they live?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Why aren't individual Americans responsible for the democracy in which they live?

Possibly because individual Americans don't want to be responsible for much beyond their survival.

Being raised in poverty creates survivors.

Survivors can only hope to achieve survival, and nothing further.

Leaders lead.
Rulers rule.
contributors contribute.
achievers achieve.

but a survivor will only survive.

Originally posted by intrepid
No, you still don't get it. 40+ years add to the complacency.

If it didn't happen to Grandad, Dad, is it going to happen to me?

Getting any clearer?

Point taken. The necessity of it just got overlooked, because it hadn't been a problem for generations.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Here is a few thoughts for who to blame.

Were people not aware they were living under sea level?

Were people unaware a hurricane was coming?

Did these same highly intelligent people choose not to believe the government when told to evacuate?

At what point is the president responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the mayor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the governor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point are the individuals responsible for their own stupidity?



Obviously not any time soon, according to the majority of the posts I see in this forum.

22 people who tied themselves together and stayed, were found all dead and still tied together.

Who is to blame?

Bush was on vacation, must have been his fault.

Oh my good God, you Sir, are quite possibly one of the most ignorant people i have ever encountered. I have no words to describe you other than that.

There were many poor people trapped behind, many who could not afford to leave the area, and others who were physically incapable due to Illness or disability, what were they supposed to do? All hike to the mountains and sit around a campfire?

What about the deliberate sabbotage of local efforts by the very people who were supposed to be saving everyone, The Federal Emergency Management Agency?

The display of "stupidity" is all yours.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The ones who held positions of responsibility are placed in positions of responsibility by people who are not responsible for those in positions of responsibility?

So you’re saying that we as a nation have no one to blame but ourselves, because the majority re-elected Bush? Or that the locals elected their Mayor?

I guess you’re right, we should only vote for people who will keep us out of danger. Oh wait, that's why Bush was re-elected. He was supposed to be more qualified at running a war on terror.

In one breath you say the people in NO are at fault for not evacuating. In another you say the government failed, but it is still our fault because we put them in those positions. So I guess elected officials should not be held accountable when they fail, and we should just blame ourselves?

I think you should heed the words of AceWombat04, and not judge these people so harshly.

Originally posted by Intelearthling

When a catagory 4 or stronger hurricane is forcasted to make landfall in a certain area, should the government forcefully remove unwilling people from their homes or just provide the means for evacuation to anyone who wants to freely go?

According to popular opinion the government is responsible for them, so yes, they should. Either that or ..... more legislation and laws that either make the government responsible in measures of specifics and degrees.

Originally posted by MERC

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Here is a few thoughts for who to blame.

Were people not aware they were living under sea level?

Were people unaware a hurricane was coming?

Did these same highly intelligent people choose not to believe the government when told to evacuate?

At what point is the president responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the mayor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point is the governor responsible for other peoples stupidity?

At what point are the individuals responsible for their own stupidity?



Obviously not any time soon, according to the majority of the posts I see in this forum.

22 people who tied themselves together and stayed, were found all dead and still tied together.

Who is to blame?

Bush was on vacation, must have been his fault.

Oh my good God, you Sir, are quite possibly one of the most ignorant people i have ever encountered. I have no words to describe you other than that.

Thank you.

There were many poor people trapped behind, many who could not afford to leave the area, and others who were physically incapable due to Illness or disability, what were they supposed to do? All hike to the mountains and sit around a campfire?

Again: I WAS REFERING TO ......

THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BOTH THE CAPABILITY AND MEANS WHO HAD THE INCLINATION AND MOTIVATION TO KNOW WHAT WAS COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR OVER 40 YEARS THAT THE LEVEES WOULD NOT HOLD ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO (IN MY IGNORANT POINT OF VIEW) SHARE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR CURRENT SITUATION.[/B]

The display of "stupidity" is all yours.

Of course it is. Because the common knowledge that the levees would not hold under these circumstances was only known to the people since 1962, and that in no way indicates any level of responsibility to themselves or the safety of their community. I'm stupid for thinking people should have pushed to correct before hand what they were told would happen.

Originally posted by intrepid
No, you still don't get it. 40+ years add to the complacency.

If it didn't happen to Grandad, Dad, is it going to happen to me?

Getting any clearer?

Truth and Wisdom should dictate that complacency can be overcome.

Originally posted by intrepid
No, you still don't get it. 40+ years add to the complacency.

If it didn't happen to Grandad, Dad, is it going to happen to me?

Getting any clearer?

If people can not get over their complacency, they can not deny their ignorance.

Originally posted by Hal9000

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The ones who held positions of responsibility are placed in positions of responsibility by people who are not responsible for those in positions of responsibility?

So you’re saying that we as a nation have no one to blame but ourselves, because the majority re-elected Bush? Or that the locals elected their Mayor?

Over the course of 40+ years, the numbers did not fix the levees, when they knew the city would be obliderated the day a slow moving category 3 or 4+ came along.

In one breath you say the people in NO are at fault for not evacuating. In another you say the government failed, but it is still our fault because we put them in those positions. So I guess elected officials should not be held accountable when they fail, and we should just blame ourselves?

I'm not saying elected officials shouldn't be held accountable.
I wish Americans were so inclined to feel accountable and engaged in some degree beforehand.

I think you should heed the words of AceWombat04, and not judge these people so harshly.

So, then.

It seems by the overwhelming majority of the posts and contributions that American citizens are not at any level, nor at any degree, responsible for their own safety even if they are capable.

Ignorance is not knowing.

Stupidity is knowing, but not taking necessary actions.

For 40+ years, the necessary actions were not taken.

The actions were not taken, by whom?
It is not the responsibility of the average Joe on the street to push through, appropriate the funds for, or do the construction on a city project. Average Joe on the street is more concerned with the school system, the police budget, things that are needed on a day to day basis, same as you and me. It’s strictly the government’s job to oversee and ensure the safety of a system such as this levee, especially since it was a Corps of engineer’s project to begin with. The same holds true for the evacuation shelters, again a city project whose budget is not even voted on by Mr. Guy off the Street.

Unfortunately we are seeing that the interests of the people in this country are being grossly ignored by the elected government officials who are more concerned with the lobby groups, interest groups, and corporations that kick back the big money to the officials in office and often to their relatives. Such things as giving their relatives special high paying cushy jobs, in which they basically do nothing but ensure this or that senators vote is controlled by the company, and that’s not to mention financing election campaigns and so forth. Since this kind of thing goes on at all levels of government, how many “for the good of the average man” projects do you think actually get budgeted and make it through? Just a few quick questions for you, how many times in your life have YOU gotten to choose how your local government divvied up the money in its budget? How many projects, do you think, which were in the interest of the Oil Industry in LA got pushed back that many years? What kind of preparedness, do you supposed, existed in the shelters in the outlying suburbs where the demographic is that of the higher income bracket?


[edit on 9/8/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by AceWombat04

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


No, I was talking about the people who are physically capable and in their mid 20s to 40s who don't have the common sense to take some preplanning for their own existance, and were too stupid to grasp on to at least one opportunity to get out of poverty in the past 20+ years.

Maybe a little bit of self-reliance would have helped these people help themselves to not be a victim, if they had chosen not to want to be one.

Hey, yo. Let me tell you something.

I grew up poor. I grew up moving between apartments we had to go without food to afford even though they were hell holes to live in. I grew up in and out of homeless shelters. My parents worked their butts off to try to get us "out of poverty." My father has a master's degree in psychology from an accredited university. He couldn't find a good living wage job, despite that. Now I suffer from serious health problems because of how we lived when I was a child, but I'm still trying my damndest to "get out of poverty."

I appreciate your passion and strength you've exerted to get to where you are.

I doubt I had it as bad, growing up as the oldest of three sons in a lower middle-class family with difficulties of our own, and yes going hungry from time to time.

I chose long ago, as did my parents before me, to "not be a victim." But I am a victim of society's ills. That is a fact. I don't want to be treated like a victim. There is a difference. I don't want sympathy or underserved help for it. All I want is to survive, and find a little spot in the sun now and then, where I can find some small measure of happiness and get away from the derogatory, narrow minded class bigotry of people like you.

Do you honestly think I'm a narrow minded bigot for thinking citizens should have a sense of responsibility for their society's ills, instead of just accepting the fact that they are nothing but a victim of their society? Or do I risk my life for people who subscribe to the ideals that it is always someone elses fault in the government, and their personal actions and behaviors or lack thereof have absolutley no effect on the society in which they are either a contributor, or a victim?

The dead left in the wake of Katrina's path are comprised of people you know nothing about.

Are you sure?

As is true of anywhere, there were good folks and bad folks. Some of them could have gotten out if they had tried harder. Some couldn't. It doesn't matter. You don't have any moral authority that grants you the power to badmouth the dead.

If these people had a true sense of obligation to their communities, perhaps the levee would not have broken, and they would not be dead.

It could one day be your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your child, your grandfather, your grandmother, your best friend... it could very well even be you.

That day may have come and past.

....... it could very well even be you.

A sacrifice I've already chosen to make, for complete strangers.

You aren't psychic.

Everyone is, they just don't know it, yet.

You can't go back in time and see whether people were sitting idly by while the storm bore down on them. You can't walk back to the day the levees broke, and watch as people who had been trying to get out of the city for the last three days but couldn't because they had no car, no means of transportation, not enough food to travel by foot, etc. wade through constantly rising water all around them.

If the people of New Orleans were attentive enough to look up and see the boats going by, and knew for 40+ years the levees were not capable of protecting them, do they not share some responsibility for the abandonment of the project that would have prevented this?

Bottom line: you don't know. Therefore, you cannot judge. Furthermore, you know nothing of what poverty in the United States of America entails, or you would know that the entire economic structure of the nation (and I don't care whether anyone believes that to be intentional or not, because I have no opinion on that) is designed in such a way that it makes it as hard as possible to "get out of poverty," no matter how quickly one decides to "not be a victim," and no matter how hard they try. It does happen, and it is possible, but a person born into poverty has the deck stacked against them. Unless you have lived it, you cannot understand that. If you have, then hats off to you for being luckier than most of us and finding a way to a better place in your life for you and yours. I am happy for you (and that is not meant to be sarcasm).

I'm sure it was not luck alone that got you from poverty to where you are now. Something within empowered you to strive for a higher cause, other than just your survival, or you would not demonstrate the powerful rhetoric you have, and in such a restrained manner, especially with the emotions you have towards the subject.

There are people much deeper in poverty than I am. For their sake I pray people like you can find and embrace a broadening of minds.

People like me, find and embrace a broadening of minds.

Before I tell a little about myself, I will let you know I am going to also give you a vote this day, because you deserve it. I thank you for your post and contribution, sincerely.

I love this country and it's people.

The last day of my last tour of duty in Iraq an 18 year old named Noef was brought in to the medics tent with a bullet in him.

He was a TCN (Third Country National) from Kuwait, but originally born in Saudi. He was 18 years old and driving a delivery truck for AAFES (Army Air Force Exchange) delivering toilet paper, which is not a highly used resource throughout the culture.

Noef was so determined to not loose his job, that paid him approximatley the equivelant of $100.00 a month. The best money he or anyone he knew was making (Noef said).

He was "car-jacked", and put up a fight for his livelyhood.

He was shot in the backside, so I could wipe mine.

I helped retrieve the bullet, and he was worried about being fired. (He also did not trust the female nurses)

My first day back in the states, four days later, I witnessed Americans succumbing to road rage and fighting in the streets for stupid disputes.

My first day back I broke up a fight where 2 fifteen year olds were beating up a 12 year old for no explainable reason.

After enduring 4 months in a war zone, I see these things my first day back, and just shake my head at the unnecessary drama that further creates ideologies ruled by fear and hate. I was hurt. Why were others just walking and driving by? Because it was not their problem?

I have on several occasions truly believed I was experiencing the final moments of my life. I've lost friends, and have had close friends loose more than their lives, if you can understand what it is I mean.

I have witnessed during 7 tours in 2 wars enough to know how much Americans take for granted.

And some days I like to see that the ideologies I'm willing to die for mean something to those I'm willing to die for.

I'm not the only one who serves you, that wishes you to help serve yourself, which in change helps us serve you.

I have no choice this day, but to follow the commands of those you help appoint over me. So, I believe it is not to much to want those whom I serve to acknowledge that they have some level of responsibility to their self, and their neighbors, to simply do what is right.

I need to believe in Americans.
I do believe in Americans.
I need Americans to believe in themselves.

Actions and Behaviors speak a lot louder than just words.

But, you have given words the actions and behaviors I sought.

If the residents were uninformed about the levees, they were ignorant (meaning they did not know)

If they knew about the levees and made no effort to fix them before they were broken, then they are not serving eachothers best interests.

I'm embarressed for America today.
I'm disgusted with America today.

I do not hold any one man, nor one organization at fault, alone.
I believe citizens should have an obligation to the society they belong to, or at the fundamental level, we are failing eachother.

At what point am I responsible for what happened with Katrina?
I have a sense of obligatory reponsibility for my fellow Americans regardless of anything.

And it is that ideology that drives me to say to others:
"Why is this someone elses fault, and why can't you help fix it, or help prevent it from happening again?"

I've been an enlisted member of the active duty Air Force since June 1998.
I'm a firefighter/EMT/Rescue Technician.

From 87 to 98 I worked/volunteered at a skilled care pediatrics hospital and also worked with the profoundly mentally disturbed.

Doesn't make me any better than anyone else, but I do take reponsibility for the needs of people, and have a sense of responsibility to others.

Ace, I thank you again for your words.

P.S. -
I live in Vegas, and we have a little sun we can share with you if you ever make it this way.









[edit on 8-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]