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Boeing F-15 wins Singapore fighter deal

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posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 06:52 AM
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The Rafale and Typhoon are more versatile in their 'role duality' (I made that term up - do you like it?)
as they are both 'swing role' rather than 'dual role'. However when the Typhoon was eliminated the reason given was its longer delivery schedule, I don't know how the French stand with offering early delivery but that may well have been a strong factor in the F-15's favour as the line faced closure without this order.




posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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The F-15 is probably cheaper now than it was back when it was just the A model. I mean they have made loads of them now, and surely just like the F-16 is now worth peanuts at the end of its lifecycle and with plenty made the F-15 would be in a similar situation? Boeing would be able to offer a cheaper price because they have probably already paid off their tooling up and research costs and most of it is just materials and profit (simplified a bit but more or less true) They were offering Blk 52 F-16s for $20 million USD not that long ago.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 07:40 AM
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Thats very true and the thought did occur to me. However on the minus side, an older tech design will be more maintenance intensive and so its overall life cycle costs will be higher than they would be for a modern design.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:01 AM
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We all know that that the F-15T was preferred over the Rafale by Singapore yesterday.

www.mindef.gov.sg...
www.stltoday.com...
www.prline.com... tes/modulesd...&Affiche=104313
www.forbes.com...
www.defensenews.com...
www.defenseindustrydaily.com... 0.../index.php#more


IMHO American lobbying and geopolitical reasons defeated the Rafale, not the F-15..... just like London beat Paris for the 2012 Olympics bid.

Take a look at the back stage work done by the US >> it offered the following with the F-15 as a "package deal" to the RSAF ! :

--200 AIM-120C Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
--6 AMRAAM Captive Air Training (CAT) Missiles;
--50 MK-82 GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) w/BLU-111 warhead;
--44 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles;
--24 Link 16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Low Volume Terminals (Fighter Data Link Terminals);
--30 AGM-154A-1 Joint Standoff Weapons w/BLU-111;
--30 AGM-154C Joint Standoff Weapons;
--200 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles;
--24 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER CAT and Dummy Missiles;


--300,000 20mm Practice Round Cartridges;
--100 KMU-556 GBU-31 JDAM Tail Kit Assemblies;
--4 MK-82 and MK-84 Bomb Practice trainers; and
--testing; integration; devices; containers; common munitions built-in test reprogramming equipment; mission data production system; drones; technical coordination program; engine component management program; aircrew safety equipment; foreign liaison officer administration support; training equipment; repair and return services; technical assistance; missile planning system; technical orders; electronic warfare systems and support; weapons trainers; weapon system reports; missile container; spare and repair parts; supply support; integration and technical services; spares; support and test equipment; personnel training and training equipment; software support; publications and technical documentation; training; life support and survival equipment; studies and surveys; ground support equipment; training missiles; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services and other related elements of logistics support.

ww... w.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/c...&modele=release

www.defenseindustrydaily.com... 05/0...tract/index.php

In addition to this it is obvious that the US has levereged its geopolitical advantage by lobbying with a historically loyal ally. If Singaopre had rejected the F-15T, then it would'nt have been too surprising to see US anger reflected in other areas like trade and spare part deliveries to other US supplied SAF weaponry (US supplied stuff make up 90+% of Singapore's weaponry) - all critical for Singapore's intrests. So for Singapore - the decesion to reject the F-15 may not have been an option at all !

Clearly, anyone who thinks the Eurofighter and Rafale were rejected because the 30+ year old F-15 is a "better jet" is living in fools paradise.(imho) Its common knodwledge that the former jets are a lot better than the latter.
Look at this quote from an American website >>

The US Air Force claims the F-15 is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range.

www.fas.org...

In no way do I imply that the F-15 is a dud aircraft, but clearly its not "better" than the Eurofighter or the Rafale.
EF-2000 smokes the F-15 -

A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off.The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.
The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.
But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.
scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...


Lt. Col. David "Logger" Rose, a Persian Gulf War F-15 pilot, 41, recalled the time "12 years ago to the day in Desert Storm" when an Iraqi MiG-29 chased away his F-15 on the first day of the war.

www.reviewjournal.com...

Also one cannot forget the F-15 going down to Mig-21's (in addition to very old Su-30K's) in air exercises with India.


Indian flyboys in low-tech Russian and French jets defeated American F-15C pilots more than 90 percent of the time.

www.defensetech.org...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com...


During those now famous exercises, Indian Su-30s and even MiG-21s outperformed American pilots flying their F-15 Eagles. Singapore, which is also looking at the Eurofighter and the French Rafale, has reason to be worried: China has bought the Su-30, as have Malaysia and Indonesia.

www.paifamily.com...


The baseline Su-30MK Beats the F-15 'Every Time' in USAF simulations
The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.


And the Su-30's of the exercises and the simulations were the baseline ones with an outdated radar, old engines, ancient flight control systems, almost non-existant aveonics, etc and these Su-30's are almost obselete when compared to the latest Su-30's now in posession with Malaysia, Indonesia and the latest MKI's with India - all in Singapore's immediate neighbourhood. China also has the mid-tech MKK's.


Robert Karniol, Asia-Pacfic editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, said he is 'a bit surprised' by the announcement.

'It's an extraordinarily complicated selection process,' the Bangkok-based Karniol told Agence France-Presse.

He said the Rafale would have had 'longer legs' as the new-generation aircraft for Singapore.

'I don't see the F-15 twenty years from now being particularly effective in that environment,' he said.

www.forbes.com...
^ The Janes editor seems to agree.


Although this choice of Singapore is may look to some like "welcoming a grandma by rejecting a virgin’s warm proposal", but i suppose the better package and greater ties to a superpower prevalied over better jets.
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PS : Something interesting :-

"We do not go for the most advanced or the most expensive equipment. Instead, we acquire what is cost-effective, what best meets our specific operational needs." --- In a speech by Mr Lee Hsien Loong, Prime Minister of Singapore soon after the F-15T prevailed over the Rafale.

www.mindef.gov.sg... eech.html
Now does this mean that the F-15 was more cost effective ? or is it another way to say that American package politicking edged out a better jet ?


Your thoughts ?

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Stealth Spy]

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
We all know that that the F-15T was preferred over the Rafale by Singapore yesterday.



I dare to say.

A Good 99% of us already knew our Airforce is buying the F-15. When we first heard they are buying new fighers and the list of planes shown.


So why we name the other 2 airplanes? Some say, to get a better deal. Others, say, for show.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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Oh, I couldn't see thatone coming...
Well... Go America...



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