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POLITICS: New Orleans: Incompetence or Population Control?

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posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 10:06 PM
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Katrina, and government failure, killed about 10,000 people in New Orleans alone, leaving another 500,000 refugees homeless and jobless. But the city's Audobon Zoo lost only three of its 1,400 animals - it had good emergency management plans. Critics charge racism, claiming the federal government stalled relief efforts on purpose to 'cull the herd,' and implement a 'cultural triage' policy targeted at America's poor and black. Diplomats remind us that mother nature's power surpasses even advanced technologies, and say bureaucracy is slow. Reports from outside the US emphasize the human tragedy, and the inevitable impacts on a world economy already destabilized by US debt. The mainstream US right highlights the property damage, looting, and lawlessness; the left focuses on the human tragedies created by poverty and ill health, saying many residents were unable to evacuate, that many left behind are shell-shocked, and "not themselves." President Bush admitted the early relief effort was "unacceptable," but does not accept responsibility for the fiasco; critics say America needs a President who is responsible. Public attention is directed to the question, "Should New Orleans be rebuilt?" A minority is looking to the future, pointing to climate change, and telling people there's more to come.

 




"Mayor expects death toll to top 10,000"
Katrina death toll may be 10,000

"Hurricane Katrina displaced over 500,000 people in the Gulf Coast region."

"Baton Rouge, the Louisiana state capital, doubled in population overnight from 250,000 to over 500,000 as refugees poured in,..."

"Displaced and desperate: “They haven’t slept, they’ve run out of money, they’ve maxed out on their cards,”...They are jobless, homeless and worried."

"Places have to be found for these people. Many of these people may never be able to rebuild."

***

"While the city's human population suffered enormously, its famous Audubon Zoo managed to take good care of its charges. Only three of its 1,400 animals died, officials said, adding that they had planned for years for a catastrophic storm."

New Orleans police kill looters in shoot-out

***

"The overwhelming majority of those stranded in the post-Katrina chaos were those without the resources to escape - and, overwhelmingly, they were black. ...The first few days were a natural disaster. The last four days were a man-made disaster," said Phillip Holt, 51,... the bodies are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating among the ruined city, crumpled on wheelchairs, abandoned on highways. And the dying goes on...

***

"People living in the path of Hurricane Katrina's worst devastation were twice as likely as most Americans to be poor and without a car - factors that may help explain why so many failed to evacuate as the storm approached. ...One of the worst-hit neighborhoods in the heart of New Orleans, for example, had a median household income of less than $7,500. Nearly three of every four residents fell below the poverty line, and barely 1 in 3 people had a car.

"Let them know we're not bums. We have houses. Our houses were destroyed. We have jobs. It's not our fault that we didn't have cars to leave," Shatonia Thomas, 27, said as she walked near New Orleans' convention center five days after the storm, still trapped in the destruction with her children, ages 6 and 9. Money and transportation - two keys to surviving a natural disaster - were inaccessible for many who got left behind in the Gulf region's worst squalor.

Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University in Washington, said emergency planners have known for years that the poverty and lack of transportation in New Orleans would be a significant problem..."

Katrina's victims poorer than U.S. average

***

"The media focus on desperate, starving victims as "looters," cover up much larger crimes of governmental neglect and incompetence. ...Race has always been the undercurrent of Louisiana politics. This disaster is one that was constructed out of racism, neglect and incompetence. ...While the rich escaped New Orleans, those with nowhere to go and no way to get there were left behind. ...No sane person should classify someone who takes food from indefinitely closed stores in a desperate, starving city as a "looter," but that's just what the media did over and over again. Sheriffs and politicians talked of having troops protect stores instead of perform rescue operations.

City, state and national politicians are the real criminals here. Since at least the mid-1800s, its been widely known the danger faced by flooding to New Orleans. The flood of 1927, which, like this week's events, was more about politics and racism than any kind of natural disaster, illustrated exactly the danger faced. Yet government officials have consistently refused to spend the money to protect this poor, overwhelmingly black, city.

While FEMA and others warned of the urgent impending danger to New Orleans and put forward proposals for funding to reinforce and protect the city, the Bush administration, in every year since 2001, has cut or refused to fund New Orleans flood control, and ignored scientists warnings of increased hurricanes as a result of global warming. And, as the dangers rose with the floodlines, the lack of coordinated response dramatized vividly the callous disregard of our elected leaders.

Notes From Inside New Orleans

***

Dr. Jeff Johnson, a professor at the University of Maryland's School of Medicine said the images of the black poor struggling in the New Orleans chaos should be a "powerful wake up call." ..."The message is that these people are in some sense abandoned, and that's why they're so angry,"...Rep. Diane Watson, a black Democrat from California said "Shame, shame on America. We were put to the test and we have failed." ...Larry E. Davis, director of the University of Pittsburgh's Centre on Race and Social Problems said the images of the disaster are an embarrassment to this nation. ... "It's as though you are looking at a picture of an African country."

Race issue haunts President Bush

***

" "Hurricane Katrina, ...is giving our nation a glimpse of the climate chaos we are bequeathing our children." ...A 2003 report on climate change in the Gulf Coast region released by the Union of Concerned Scientists said that "coastal flooding and erosion will increase because rising sea levels will generate higher storm surges even from minor storms."

"Whether or not global warming increases the number or intensity of hurricanes, future storm damages are likely to rise substantially because of the increased amount of development in harm's way and the aggravating impacts of higher sea levels and degraded coastal ecosystems," said the report."

Hurricanes and Climate Change



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



Katrina shone a spotlight on the natural disasters threatening America, and put her inadequacies under a microscope.




...what really happened was that a "Complex Problem" revealed itself. Like a game of Pick Up Sticks, people had made a series of poor decisions that they could not see were related to each other until one day, New Orleans fell over.

The Lessons of New Orleans - Complex Problems



Some of the poor decisions are obvious: Homeland Security's focus on terrorism hampered FEMA's ability to respond to natural disasters, just like state emergency managers warned would happen. The feds made personnel changes, and hired spooks to run the show; the new bosses do not have experience in emergency management. National coffers were emptied to take over Afghanistan and Iraq - now, there isn't any money left for ordinary Americans' emergencies.




As recently as three weeks ago, state emergency managers urged Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and his deputy, Michael P. Jackson, to ease the department's focus on terrorism, warning that the shift away from traditional disaster management left FEMA a bureaucratic backwater less able to respond to natural events such as hurricanes and earthquakes.

Bruce P. Baughman, Alabama emergency management director, head of the National Emergency Management Association and the official in charge of FEMA's response to the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks in 2001, said Katrina will leave its mark on federal disaster management. "It's time to realize, whoever is in charge of FEMA does need an emergency management background. . . . It's something you learn by experience, and a lot of that experience is gone," he said.

FEMA Director Singled Out by Response Critics

***

" "We authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq, lickety split. After 9/11 we gave the president unauthorized powers, lickety split to help New York and other places," he said. "You mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through ... that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need," said (New Orleans mayor) Nagin.

[ulr=http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/02/ray_nagin20050902.html]Radio link here: New Orleans mayor blasts federal government[/url]



Whomever might be responsible, or irresponsible, the problem of dealing with Katrina's aftermath remains. It can only be handled by answering the question, "What is the real priority?" or "What comes first: Profits or people?" What happens next depends on the answer to that question.

Things are happening now. Suddenly, after leaving people stranded in the eye of the storm, and leaving survivors for days without food, water, or medical care, it's imperative right now that everyone evacuate, forthwith. Those left behind may not stay. It's not an option to remain in New Orleans, insists Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.




"Chertoff said rescuers have encountered a number of people who said they did not want to evacuate. ..."That is not a reasonable alternative," he said. "We are not going to be able to have people sitting in houses in the city of New Orleans for weeks and months while we de-water and clean this city.""

***

"...police pleaded with remaining survivors to abandon the city. ...''There are no jobs. There are no homes to go to, no hotels to go to, there is absolutely nothing here,'' Deputy Police Chief Warren Riley said. ''We advise people that this city has been destroyed, it has completely been destroyed.''"




But what's the real problem here? The crisis is over. Why force people out if they don't want to leave? What have we got to offer 500,000 displaced American refugees? New jobs? New homes? Start-over funds?

Existent emergency facilities are overcrowded and mismanaged:




"It took several days for food and water to reach the tens of thousands of desperate New Orleans residents who took shelter in the increasingly squalid and deadly Superdome and city convention centre."

"The last bedraggled refugees were rescued from the Superdome on Saturday and the convention center was all but cleared, leaving the heart of New Orleans to the dead and dying, the elderly and frail stranded too many days without food, water or medical care."

"Nita LaGarde, 105, was pushed down the street in her wheelchair as her nurse's 5-year-old granddaughter, Tanisha Blevin, held her hand. The pair spent two days in an attic, two days on an interstate island and the last four days on the pavement in front of the convention centre. ...LaGarde's nurse, Ernestine Dangerfield, 60, said LaGarde had not had a clean adult diaper in more than two days. "I just want to get somewhere where I can get her nice and clean," she said."




FEMA just rented three cruise liners with a total of 7,000 berths - hotel rooms, tent cities, and maybe some small trailers might be available to the remaining 493,000 homeless:




"...the U.S. government has chartered three luxury cruise liners - Ecstacy, Sensation and Holiday - for the next half year, to provide temporary housing for victims of Hurricane Katrina. Two of the ships, the Ecstasy and Sensation, have a maximum capacity of 2,606 people each and will be based in Galveston, Texas. The third, the Holiday, has a maximum capacity of 1,800, and will likely be docked in Mobile, Ala. ...Carnival Cruise Lines would not reveal how much FEMA was paying to charter the ships."

***

"Alabama has offered about room for about 2,500 in shelters or hotels. ...For those who want to stay, Mississippi officials say they will eventually offer temporary housing in tents or in 20,000 small trailers that have been ordered. ...The idea of tents only adds to Renee Chambless' fears. "You can't trust anybody. If you sleep in those tents, you might wake up and see your daughter being carried off and raped," Chambless said."

"The main thing for us is the kids," ...They're separated from their friends, their everyday activities, their school. The waiting list for schools is incredible."




There is little reason to believe any of these new temporary facilities will be managed better than the Superdome was, or that new promises might be kept better than the last:




" "I would rather have been in jail," Janice Jones said in obvious relief at being out of the Superdome. "I've been in there seven days and I haven't had a bath. They treated us like animals. Everybody is scared." ...The Astrodome's new residents will be issued passes that will let them leave and return as they please, something that wasn't permitted in New Orleans."

"Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, just outside New Orleans, broke down on Meet the Press when he talked about people who waited for help. ..."They were told like me, every single day, the cavalry's coming, on a federal level. The cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming, the cavalry's coming. I have just begun to hear the hoofs of the cavalry ...," Broussard said."

" "The guy who runs this building I'm in, emergency management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home, and every day she called him and said, 'Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?' And he said, 'And yeah, Momma, somebody's coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday' - and she drowned Friday night. She drowned on Friday night." "

"What will happen to the refugees in the long term was not known."




Some officials say disease will be a problem in the wreckage, to justify the new evacuation orders, but the Center for Disease Control says no, "infectious diseases following hurricanes are rare in developed countries such as the United States."




Many officials have warned of infectious diseases from the toxic flood waters in New Orleans in coming weeks, but the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it did not expect serious outbreaks. ...Decaying bodies create very little risk for major disease outbreaks, and the CDC noted that outbreaks of infectious diseases following hurricanes are rare in developed countries such as the United States. It said foodborne illness such as salmonella poisoning was more likely.




Many so-called looters and shooters left in New Orleans simply are exercising traditional American independence, ingenuity, and adaptability - and choosing to go it alone, and survive, without depending on incompetent governments. They won't be rounded up, herded, and shipped like cattle to slaughter. They are defending their independence and their rights, with guns, because Americans have a right to bear arms, and defend themselves against the government when necessary. It's the American way, and the promise that put Bush in the Whitehouse.

The survivors who want to stay in New Orleans know they can make a go of it. They can live on abandoned damaged goods, and rebuild by scavenging from the rubble. Worse things have happened, even in America.




"Kenny Lason, 45, a dishwasher at Pat O'Brien's, a French Quarter restaurant famous for its signature "Hurricane" cocktail, took a long slurp out of a bottle of Korbel extra dry champagne. He broke a store window to get it, and he is not ashamed. "They wasn't giving us nothing," he said. "You got to live off the land."

***

" "Calvin Norris, 58, looked like a Mississippi River steamboat as he pushed a shopping cart through the brackish water while puffing on a cigarette. But like dozens of other holdouts living in the neighborhood's shotgun-style houses and second-floor apartments, Norris wouldn't even consider leaving. ..."Because I got my house," he said. "The water isn't in the house like it was when it first started."

Despite official warnings that New Orleans will be without food, water, electricity and jobs for months, the holdouts are determined to stay with their property, afraid that if they leave they might never be able to come back. ..."If you go, they take you to Texas," said Elizabeth Franklin, 65, as she stood on her only porch step not under water. "I don't know anybody in Texas. I don't know how I'm going to get back."

Gelanto Gbollie, 46, stood bare-chested in black jeans on a second-floor apartment balcony with the railing and roof blown off. ..."We're trying to secure the building because we've got a lot of stuff here," Gbollie said. ..."I don't need you, homeboy," Arthur Alexis, 55, shouted back. "I've been doing this for 40 years. This ain't nothing to me." "

Thanks but no thanks, New Orleans holdouts tell rescuers

***

"Not all New Orleans residents wanted out. ''They'll have to drag me out by my feet,'' said Mike Reed, 49, as he swept debris from the streets of the city's historic French Quarter..."

***

"The people who have chosen to stay or are stuck in demolished communities along the Mississippi coast scavenge for basics each day, as convoys of soldiers and supplies pass them by, headed for the nearly empty city of New Orleans. ...Some are staying with the hope of rebuilding their communities. Others say they would leave if only they could get a ride. All agree that with no water or power, probably for months to come, they need more help from the government just to survive. ...
"I have been all over the world. I've been in a lot of Third World countries where people were better off than the people here are right now," retired Air Force Capt. William Bissell said Monday."




There is a big psychological difference between those who have chosen to stay, and those prevented from leaving by circumstance.




Lavone Lollar, 34, and her three children have been living with 75 others in an Ocean Springs shelter that smells like dirty diapers. ...She fears the psychological toll the disaster is taking on those slowly realizing they've lost everything. "You talk to somebody one minute, they're OK," she said. "The next, the devil's starting to get into them."




The ones who choose to stay are squatters, not criminals. They are Americans, making the best of a bad situation. The smart ones are scared stiff of the only alternative they're offered - relocation, with no guarantees of a home, income, water, food, or medical care - maybe permanent temporary relocation camps. Who knows?

Government created this crisis of confidence - now they're shooting Americans who are strong enough, and independent enough, to make their own way. Instead of applauding survivors for their Yankee gumption, the government is prosecuting. For shame.




"Trials are expected to begin within two weeks, ...We're going to bring these guys to justice," (said New Orleans U.S. Attorney Jim Letten).




It doesn't make sense. Now that the danger is past, officials want everyone out. No scavenging allowed. But most everything is going to be written off anyway - insurance companies already are processing claims. So why?

Why call scavenging 'looting,' and prosecute the ecologically responsible?

Is somebody getting kickbacks on salvage? Is that part of the "clean-up contract"? Will contractors have rights to salvage, and be paid twice, with our tax dollars and donations too? Is that why survivors are being forced out, to get rid of competition and witnesses?

Cities are rebuilt from rubble, by individual survivors. It's a human tradition, dating back hundreds of thousands of years. If the government knows this can't happen in New Orleans, this time, then tell the people the truth. Be honest. In the meantime...

You go, New Orleans. Go Thomas, LaGarde, Dangerfield, Lason, Jones, Norris, Franklin, Gbollie, Alexis, Reed. Go everyone. Don't get stomped again. Fight for your rights. Your homes. Your futures. And don't give up. You are not alone.




"Maybe it comes back stronger," says political strategist and commentator James Carville, known as the Ragin' Cajun. "No one forgot how to play the saxophone or how to cook or write. Or have a good time. That's all still there. Calamities and disasters are part of New Orleans' history. This too shall pass."



-soficrow


Also see:
U.S. groups aiding foreign refugees offer help to Katrina evacuees
Poor face dilemma in cities taking Katrina evacuees
Texas gets labor grant to help Katrina evacuees

Resources:

Katrina Information Map - for people "affected by Hurricane Katrina who have or are trying to find information about the status of specific locations affected by the storm and its aftermath." The map was created by 24-year-old Jonathan Mendez, a former New Orleans resident and computer programmer.
www.scipionus.com...

Help:

Adopt a Katrina Family
Support The Salvation Army's Hurricane Katrina relief efforts by making a monetary donation at www.salvationarmyusa.org... or by calling 1-800-SAL-ARMY.

Climate Information:

Wikipedia: Effects of global warming en.wikipedia.org...
Inter Press News: The Endless Hurricane Season www.ipsnews.net...
National Geographic News: In U.S., Climate Change May Hit Southeast Hardest news.nationalgeographic.com...
Susanne Moser, Ph.D. (Union of Concerned Scientists): The Potential Impacts Of Global Warming On Our Coasts And Oceans www.climatehotmap.org...
The Nation: Climate, the Absent Issue www.thenation.com...




posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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Government created this crisis of confidence - now they're shooting Americans who are strong enough, and independent enough, to make their own way. Instead of applauding survivors for their Yankee gumption, the government is prosecuting. For shame.


This is without a doubt the most ignorant and shameful statement I have heard in my life and unfortunately, I have heard it far too often this week. Those who make such statements are completely uninformed as to the conditions that led to the looting in NO and they are completely ignorant of the class of people who commit these crimes, beside, and which is worse, being ignorant of the basic requirements and individual responsibilities for a productive and orderly society.

The vast majority of looting took place as soon as the storm cleared and had very little to do with "surviving," especially that looting that went on at Wal-Mart, shopping malls and Canal Street.

In fact, there is very little excuse for any of the looting in New Orleans and, in fact, most of those who participated in the looting need no other excuse to loot, except that there was no one to stop them.

It's a shame that the author spent so much time gathering so much data, when his credibility is shot with one single paragraph.


[edit on 2005/9/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Wow, great post soficrow with some fantastic resources. You appear to hit the nail right on the head. Especially consider the elitist response:

Bush family values...

Certainly his current response belies the roots of George W. Bush's "compassionate conservatism."

It appears that Marie Antoinette was reincarnated, though without learning the lessons of karma...

Unfortunately there's no cake for them to eat.


la2

posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:00 PM
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i was reading that weather manipulation is a valid theory. www.threeworldwars.com



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott


Government created this crisis of confidence - now they're shooting Americans who are strong enough, and independent enough, to make their own way. Instead of applauding survivors for their Yankee gumption, the government is prosecuting. For shame.


This is without a doubt the most ignorant and shameful statement I have heard in my life ...Those who make such statements are completely uninformed as to the conditions that led to the looting in NO and they are completely ignorant of the class of people who commit these crimes, beside, and which is worse, being ignorant of the basic requirements and individual responsibilities for a productive and orderly society.




FYI Grady, here's a tidbit I did not include:


"...On top of the burdens of law enforcement, officers have had to forage for food and water and even for places to relieve themselves. ..."Our officers have been urinating and defecating in the basement of Harrah's Casino," Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said last week. "They have been going in stores to feed themselves."

...They also have had to deal with personal losses. "What's affected most of our officers is they don't know where their wives or kids are. They don't have homes . . . they don't have anything," Riley said.

In the past few days, two police officers took their lives with their own weapons and dozens have turned in their badges.
Two suicides, dozens quitting New Orleans' police



IMO - the most basic requirement and individual responsibility for a productive and orderly society is compassion.

I know you are compassionate - but maybe missing some important information.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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I JUST DISCOVERED THIS THREAD - ASTOUNDING.

FEMA Detainment Camp
www.abovetopsecret.com...

IT'S A MUST READ. REALLY.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Dunno soficrow?, always respected your threads but this may be a bit long and may be a bit razor-sharp.

Grady may be on the ball here, which he usually is. Do you know for sure what your suggesting or perhap's speculating? All respect intended.

Dallas



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
FYI Grady, here's a tidbit I did not include:


"...On top of the burdens of law enforcement, officers have had to forage for food and water and even for places to relieve themselves. ..."Our officers have been urinating and defecating in the basement of Harrah's Casino," Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said last week. "They have been going in stores to feed themselves."





Did it occur to you that those who were looting and running rampant all over town murdering, raping, and shooting at police created the stress that led, in no small measure, to the suicides and the officers who quit their jobs?

Of course, I don't include among the criminals those who needed to steal food to survive, for indeed, such was probably the case, unless all the food had been stolen by the time anyone actually had any hunger pangs.

Your post is a perfect example of why the facts often do not add up to the truth. The very idea that the tragedy of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast had anything to do with population control is so repugnant and outrageous as to engender disdain on the part of any rational, compassionate individual.


[edit on 2005/9/6 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by soficrow
FYI Grady, here's a tidbit I did not include:


"...On top of the burdens of law enforcement, officers have had to forage for food and water and even for places to relieve themselves. ..."Our officers have been urinating and defecating in the basement of Harrah's Casino," Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said last week. "They have been going in stores to feed themselves."





Did it occur to you that those who were looting and running rampant all over town murdering, raping, and shooting at police created the stress that led, in no small measure, to the suicides and the officers who quit their jobs?




Mostly I think, the stress came from not having food or water, or proper shelter - from having lived through and survived a hurricane - but losing family and friends, and then being unable to help others in need. ...Kinda what like happened to everyone else.

Disaster does things to people, and some bear stress better than others.

...If I had the opportunity to rewrite that paragraph, I might give it a try. But really, I'm too tired, and horrified by what has happened.

Not just the catastrophe, or the waiting for help - but the fact that refugees are being treated like criminals and detained. They are not allowed to leave once they're interred!!!

You MUST read this: FEMA Detainment Camp






Your post is a perfect example of why the facts often do not add up to the truth.




My post is primarily a collection of stories, observations, and others' analyses - with few conclusions except that New Orleans residents have a God given right to stay, and scavenge to survive and rebuild their lives.





The very idea that the tragedy of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast had anything to do with population control is so repugnant and outrageous as to engender disdain on the part of any rational, compassionate individual.



I didn't say that you know. Just pointed out that the idea is out there, and highlighted some of the arguments. ...As I understand it, no one is suggesting seriously that anyone manipulated the weather - just that the opportunity was used when it came.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Dallas

Dunno soficrow?, always respected your threads but this may be a bit long and may be a bit razor-sharp.



Thanks. Long for sure - not enough time to edit properly. Razor sharp? A good thing in my vocabulary.





Grady may be on the ball here, which he usually is. Do you know for sure what your suggesting or perhap's speculating? All respect intended.

Dallas


A. IMO - New Orleans residents have a God given right to stay, and scavenge to survive and rebuild their lives. Speaking as a garbage picker from waayyy back. One of my dreams is to open a business that turns trash into art and resells the pieces as distressed home furnishings. What the survivors are doing in NO fits with all my politics, values, and inclinations - excepting the real criminals, who I suspect are a small minority. ...Also seems likely to me that many are suffering post traumatic stress, and are in more need of help than incarceration.

B. From the Red Cross to the independent contractors salivating over the upcoming government work, and including elected and other officials - we're looking at a long, entrenched tradition of corruption and graft. ...IMO - the survivors are in the way. That's all. And the media is being manipulated to create public support for their removal and forced interment. That's what it is.

The time to evacuate was BEFORE the storm. Not after the danger is past. Why evacuate now? Can't see any reason except to clear the road for easy, profitable salvaging. ...Could be other explanations of course - I'm open, which is why I didn't say anything definitive.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 12:05 AM
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It is a rare occasion that I am on the same page as Grady but here is one of those events.

Forced Internment? Where? Even In Valhalls personal account of visiting one such relocation area people placed there are allowed to leave if they so wish. Period. there is no forced interment beyond a medical one.

There is a huge difference in raiding a 7-11 for food and water in a disaster zone then going to a Costco and shop-looting yourself a new plasma. While I agree with you that these represented a very small amount of the overall survivors but they were able to create a disportionatly large amount of chaos.

Just to make sure I understand what you are trying to say here can you amplify exactly what you mean here.



Government created this crisis of confidence - now they're shooting Americans who are strong enough, and independent enough, to make their own way. Instead of applauding survivors for their Yankee gumption, the government is prosecuting. For shame.


Are you implying that the armed hooligans who are looting, shooting at rescue chopters, police, engineers in to survey the true hero's in the traditional American mold?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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I don't think there is any "population control" going on. Not but a month or two ago I was talking about this sort of thing happening, and being prepared to evacuate hundreds of thousands and even millions of people from devastating areas in the US coasts because of such natural disasters.

Many of the old members know by now that between UM_GAZZ, Valhall, INDY and me, we have been providing for over a year information about these global climate changes, which as we continue to see are bringing the most horrendous disasters we have seen.

All that information we four, and some other members, have been providing shows that things will probably get worse, but I don't think, and I haven't seen any piece of reliable information that "the government is doing all this for population control."

Climate changes have happened in the past, and many of those times there were probably no humans around, or at least not with the same technology we have know which has been spewing chemicals and pollution all over the planet.

These cycles seem to be constant, more or less, and unfortunately right now we are in one of those cycles where the Earth is changing it's environment which causes global disasters such as what we have witnessed.

I would not recommend anyone to move back to New Orleans, even if the levees are raised to 30-40 feet. That place is going to get flooded again in the not so distant future.

This is part of the reason why I moved from south Florida to Wyoming, but even then, right now I am living close to a fault line and Yellowstone is right around the corner, so it does seem that there is almost no place on where you can get away from these natural changes.

I am not trying to scare anyone, or trying to be another Doc doom, but the facts are that the Earth goes through these cycles of climate change, and we are going through one right now. The US government has nothing to do with these changes.


[edit on 7-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 12:32 AM
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It's a shame I can't give you more than this for your post, soficrow:


You have voted soficrow for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


This is by far the best post I have seen on the Katrina crisis.

As for the looting/scavenging, I have absolutely no problem with this, to a certain degree. I heartily approve of the scavenging of items necessary to survival, such as food, toiletries, clothing, camping gear, etc. I, however, condemn the looting of totally unnecessary items, like consumer electronics, jewelry, etc.


Government created this crisis of confidence - now they're shooting Americans who are strong enough, and independent enough, to make their own way. Instead of applauding survivors for their Yankee gumption, the government is prosecuting. For shame.

Are you implying that the armed hooligans who are looting, shooting at rescue chopters, police, engineers in to survey the true hero's in the traditional American mold?


This kind of behaviour totally baffles me. I have heard reports that some hurricane victims actually shot at some of the rescue/emergency personnel who came to help them!
Talk about ingratitude! Sure, the rescue could probably have been organized more efficiently, but geez, these people are just trying to help, and what thanks do they get? There is breaking the law to survive (like taking food from a shopping mall) and then there is breaking the law because you are an idiot pointing firearms at people and pulling the trigger. People need to WORK TOGETHER to get through this horrible natural disaster, not fight with each other. Less people will die if cooperation and goodwill are practiced towards each other.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
...............
This kind of behaviour totally baffles me. I have heard reports that some hurricane victims actually shot at some of the rescue/emergency personnel who came to help them!
Talk about ingratitude!
.............


And criminal snipers were also shooting at military helicopters, police and even other civilians that were trying to bring in food and evacuate people from NO. I believe that's part of the reason why help did not arrive sooner.

Then again you also have to think on how in the world the US military or FEMA could get trucks into NO when there were streets that were flooded up to 20 feet. But a lot of people don't seem to want to think those could also have been the reason, or at least part of the reason, why help didn't arrive sooner.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 01:03 AM
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Wow!

That's some post!



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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Great Post soficrow!





You have voted soficrow for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:10 AM
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Muaddib:

Then again you also have to think on how in the world the US military or FEMA could get trucks into NO when there were streets that were flooded up to 20 feet. But a lot of people don't seem to want to think those could also have been the reason, or at least part of the reason, why help didn't arrive sooner.


Isn't FEMA trained to deal with these things? They have done practices for just such an occurence, though not on such a grand scale.

20 feet of water can bring the aid efforts of the richest country in the world to a standstill?

Grab a Seadoo and lash a raft to the back of it full of provisions and get your butt out there. Put together some kind of raft and get out there.

20 feet of water is no excuse whatsoever in the length of time it took to get aid to New Orleans. This was a Federal Emergency that needed Managing, and FEMA screwed the pooch.


jako



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:13 AM
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I believe that the thread bring very good valid points and occurs many will disagree with some of them.

Overall is good read is you have the time and leave the bias on the side.

Nice compilation of related links and topics Sofi.

I challenge anybody that can prove any of the links wrong.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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I dont think any one here is suggesting that the U.S government is capable of engineering/modifying these types of weather events. But you can still engage in population control by simply ignoring the plight of the starving and dehydrating for a few days, let the place descend into anarchy, complain like sissies when your soldiers get shot at and let people die by the thousands. Same result can be achieved through simple opportunism.

Now thats not to say that I buy into that reason for why the delay occured. I happen to believe the delay was designed to generate a public perception that even more powers need to be given to FEMA and the Federal government to respond to disasters. Who wouldnt like more power and funding?

Good post Soficrow, more food for thought than anythin really. Thanks for sharing it with us



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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Well I will have to agree with you, media manipulation always works wonders. If you take in consideration that the media focused days on the events of the souths bringing the human suffering and the inadequacy of the government to deal with it, it makes the American public be outrage against the government agencies and government help all the way to the top.

We always are going to be wondering the "Ifs and Or's" for many years.



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