want a reason for me blaming bush esdad71? here it is. It is HIS job to protect HIS people he had the power to drop food and water from the sky. He didn't do anything but get people to vote on money to rebuild he acted as if they were already dead.

It is during times like these that all the agents can easily be identified. No Bush did nothing wrong, he didn't even lift a finger so how could he be the one to blame. He was too busy playing golf, we all know golf is very important for the survival of this nation.

"It's Not My Job"

Originally posted by motionknight
Its not his job to organize a evacuation of his entire city, it isnt doable anyway.

There seems to be some controversy on this point.

I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that it is the responsibility of the mayor to organize the evacuation of his city.

I imagine this question will be addressed definitively in the near future, and when it is, much of what has happened will come into clearer focus.

Even if we assume that it isn't his job, I cannot understand why he wouldn't use the considerable resources available to him to do it anyway.

The increasingly popular photographs of hundreds of flooded school buses sitting parked and unused says more than a thousand lame pass-the-buck excuses possibly can.

As much as I sympathize with his passion, his increasingly obvious tendency to throw up his hands instead of take charge is leading me to have serious doubts about Mayor Nagin's leadership.

Soon enough, we'll be hearing more from the people of New Orleans themselves, and what they think about all this.

I will be very interested in hearing what they have to say.

I see no pictures of hundreds of bus drivers standing around before the storm volunteering to drive the buses.

The system failed on every level, plain and simple. Nagin failed to issued the full mandatory evacuation of New Orleans on Saturday, that's my biggest beef with him. Yet I still have much respect for how he handled the situation after Katrina's landfall.

Originally posted by motionknight
He urged the people to get out 3 days before the storm, and the ones who couldnt leave or didnt want to stayed behind.
Its not his job to organize a evacuation of his entire city, it isnt doable anyway.
And besides everyone underestimated the storm, yes the mayor to but is wasnt the storm directly that made the most casualties in NO, the dykes broke due to the fact that they were not strong enough, and whos fault is that, BUSH!He cut the subsidies for the dykes so drastically.

But the real tragedy happened after the storm, it took 5 days to reach the people in NO, 5 hole days.
This is certainly not Nagins fault now is it!!?? on the contrary!!without him help wouldnt be there now.
So please save your BS story for some mentally challenged person that you could convince.

So first you say that everyone underestimated the storm and it's not their fault, and then you say that it is Bush's fault (or whoever) and they should have known? Bit of circular logic...

Could the mayor have moved buses to high ground?
Could he have had emergency sandbag walls made just in case?
Could he have stockpiled some city resource supplies better just in case?

Oh yes...all that and more.

As for your insult at the end, I think that was in very, very poor taste.

ut the real tragedy happened after the storm, it took 5 days to reach the people in NO, 5 hole days.
This is certainly not Nagins fault now is it!!?? on the contrary!!without him help wouldnt be there now.
So please save your BS story for some mentally challenged person that you could convince.

It was 3 days, and on the fourth day the guard began to arrive. I'll tell you where he broke down. He should have requested the activation of the National Guard Saturday, and had them at the ready. Then send them in immediately after the storm, with a shoot on site order. If your are ordered to evacuate, you stay and are looting, firing at the first help that arrives and robbing them at gunpoint, you deserve a shot in the leg.

Could an action such as this have prevented more looting, allowing FEMA and the Red Cross to arrive in those "days earlier" that are spoken of. I feel that many deaths could have been avoided if local law enforcement and EMT would not have broken down. On 9/11, you had more than 200 NYPD/FDNY killed, and they still stood firm and rescued people AFTER those towers fell, and they were under attack from terrorists. This was a hurricane, and they ran.

I hope the city well, but watch the bank accounts of the city council/mayors of NO get bigger with the deals and contracts to rebuild the city over the next 10 yeras or so.

And I have no one to convince anyone of anything, but I do seems to make the mentally challenged angry, causing them to write in choppy, delusional text about the Neo-con/rightwing conspiracy.

A few points/thoughts on this.

Some countries would expect you to walk out of the city if you had to. Obviously people who are physically incapable need the help to get out, but I don't believe just not having a car has to be a valid excuse for that if you are otherwise capable.

All of these the issues were predicted from the damage to the timing of the response.

There is a process that "they" go through in a situation like this. Bush doesn't see a hurricane on the news then decide what to do about it, others are the first to make that determination. From what I hear, he has to be asked before he can anyway. That might be something that changes out of this.

I think that the whole size of the area that was involved was much more daunting than people give it credit for. It is bigger than the country I live in. Seems a lot of officials struggled for the first 48 hours to know what to do - as predicted - then began implimenting or forming plans.

Speaking of plans, I have heard that there is a National Emergency Response Plan (if I remember correctly) that was developed after 911. (Someone can tell I am wrong on that if they like, it is just something I saw on the net yesterday.) This is the first practical test of that plan and they are now finding the parts that don't work in practise.

Before someone says they should have ironed those kinks out before this came about, how many Windows security patches have you put on your computer lately? (no supercillious comments from linux users please, lol)

Lastly, and my main point, I would say that people are basing decisions and attempting to allocate blame too soon with too little information. Quite simply we are all basing our comments on what we see in front of us. Sometimes what we see can be misleading, this site has plenty of examples of that I am sure. People need to take the time to gather all the relevant information before they are even partially qualified to make judgements. Those judgements will come I believe, but they will need to be in the cold light of day, not the murky aftermath of a major disaster. Instant news doesn't mean accurate instant judgements by anybody; media, politicians, victims or us. We can speculate based on the information at hand, but we have to acknowledge that we are doing so without complete information.

Originally posted by Kramthenothing
want a reason for me blaming bush esdad71? here it is. It is HIS job to protect HIS people he had the power to drop food and water from the sky. He didn't do anything but get people to vote on money to rebuild he acted as if they were already dead.

I suppose Bush should have waved his magic wand and dissipated the hurricane down to a 'tropical mist'. He also forgot to rub his magic lantern and send his genie in to 'strong arm' the levees, while using his third wish to tuck the residents into their cozy little beds for sweet dreams of gum drops and cotton candy! IMPEACH THE MAN!!! HE'S A CRIMINAL!

What's the purpose of the Mayor? Why the Governor? Why waste the money on these ridiculous fictional characters, when all we need to rely on is one man? Surely, the President can take care of every state, every city, every town, every parrish, every neighborhood!

Just a little history lesson for you:

Once upon a time, the state and local governments whined and complained about how the Federal Government would 'over step their bounds' in times of crisis and natural distasters. They complained that the Feds reacted too fast and would often take over the situations without allowing the local authorities to do what they were meant to do; Protect it's citizens. Their major complaint was how the Feds were stepping on state sovereignty.

The Feds listened and back off, allowing the states to lead in disaster planning and recovery. The Feds would trust the local authorities to assess, plan, and execute it's own disaster protocals. The Fed's role would change to support, rather than lead, and would step-in when asked.

So, which way should it be? Should the Federal Government be 'Lead' or 'Support'? Or, should we just wait until after a disaster to decide. This way the local govnt can take the credit if it all works out, and point fingers when it doesn't?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

the mayor did call for a full mandatory evac, he did urge the people to get out. they declared LA in a state of emergency on sat, before the hurricane hit. relatives tell me that gas was running out, the people sat on the roads in a traffic jam for over 8 hours, and people were turning around to go back because they couldn't get out.
yes the school buses were there, but where were the drivers? getting out probably.
yes, the mayor should be blamed, but mayors only have so much power. the govenor failed, fema(director) failed- what do you expect when you have no job experience in this VERY important field, the president failed the worst.
fema should have been staging relief supplies on sat. to go in- enough for the total amont of people there. thats what our tax dollars are suppose to go for, but fema and the gov. waited days to get even the basic supplies to those who needed help.
and how can 1500 police officers handle over a half a million people? how can they evac, rescue, arrest looters, etc with only 1500 officers. if they are like us, we've had to lay off police because of our budget problems.
what if this had been the 'big one' for california? would we be saying you deserve what you get for chooseing to live in a earthquake zone? i know they can't be predicted, but its still a natural disaster waiting to happen. i bet they get a heck of a lot more help than this low economic area. gotta save the rich people first!
all i can say is that the most neediest in this country always get a raw deal from the politicians- both sides, but repubs more, heck i heard more about the loss of the plantations, and old homes than anything else.lotts home was destroyed, oh poor thing, i bet fema won't give him a phone number to call, his checks probably in the mail. but those who need femas help to start over have got to call a 1 8oo number- even though they don't have acess to one. what happened to going into the area and setting up help tables? oh they must be scared of all the poor people. again, if it was calif, they would be in those areas they feel safe, but if you are poor and scary, call us when you have a phone, maybe we will help, maybe not
the leaders of this country has shown that they have an agenda, and it is not for the regular citizens, its for those who can afford their price. mr. president, quit taking vacations, they seem to cause hell for this country.

The following is a transcript sent to me from my niece. A friend of hers who lives in NO wrote to her and .... well you probably need to read it yourself.
It is a uncensored first hand look at what really happened.


-Mika


I will now try to transcribe somewhat our situation as far as I can
remember and if the order is screwy I apologize.


Day 1.saturday

I attempted to dj a show for RS benefit but it was cancelled where then
I was taken to a private pty at a hotel to dj the night away thinking
we were still atm safe from any impending REAL danger from the storm.

day 2 sun morning....

upon returning home I was immediately put on the very real and very
aware danger we faced as I talked to friend after friend fleeing the
city. communicating with RX (RS-from now on) we met up with jason
warwick to board my house and flee to the proximus tower to the 10th
floor to safely ride the storm out. we had food water beer etc and me
being a native thought we would basically have a lil flooding the usual
power problems etc. NO BIG DEAL. rs left for atlanta we hunkered down
and time starts to pass.


(THE STORM)MONDAY

at first it was super-normal in all respects. Rain wind, nothing
uncommon in the many many hurricanes ive been in. then it got closer
and closer as the night progressed. rain started to seep thru the walls
due to the sheer sideways motion and force on the winds. We had power
till roughly midnight being the last to lose it since we were on the
city hall and hospital grid.(thinking at the time we would get it back
first as well) winds hurl the wall unit air conditioner thru the
computer lab office and 180 mph winds rip thru the office as I
frantically try to reach out a 10 story window to pull a window shut to
no avail. we flee to the bathrooms to barely sleep the remainder of the
storm out as the building shudders around us. The computer office is a
veritable vortex of debris and water as we further ride the night out
in sweltering heat and wetness all around. the storm passes finally and
we walk out in to the tuesday morning.


Tuesday

A bomb has blown new orleans to pieces. when I say glass I mean glass.
every window is completely blown to bits. the glass is everywhere cars
are turned over, all street lights are gone. girders from other
buildings are sticking out and thru the concrete walls of other
buildings. the hyatt looks like something from independance day...all
the curtains blow in the wind cause not one window remains in the
40-story structure. we see maybe 5 guards’ men viehicles, and not much
else of any other department. what you need to realize now is that
there isn’t one working piece of communication EQ left anywhere. this
is where it began, no one knew it yet though. the levee was breached
and filling the city but no one knew or could warn them it was
happening. the Chinese restaurant up the street might open, we try fail
and return to the tower. ppl zombified mill about slowly inspecting
things and are clueless as what to do atm. the roof of the superdome is
ripped to shreds and all we keep hearing is go to the superdome, go to
the superdome...F*** THAT! there are barely any police around and
rumors start to mill greatly about everything imaginable..but most
seems calm atm in the cbd. we check out property in the 9th ward find
it tube basically intact and decide to stick it out in the tower one
more day thinking we will get power ASAP. watching out the window till
we fall asleep again we assume the worst is over. we were wrong of
course. at this point I lose track of days so bear with me. the streets
fill with water rapidly. we all move out to check on our house in the
9th ward to move camp there ASAP. the water is roughly 3 feet atm.
house is ok we return to the tower to gather basic belongings and
Jackie’s cats. we set out into the water again the looting is
everywhere. canal street is a total riot zone. all and every store
imaginable is being ransacked, jewelry,clothes,shoe etc. NO ONE IS
TAKING F****** FOOD! OR WATER! we get thru the french quarter and stop
by the local grocery store to see whats up. its overrun by the
basically peaceful looters. food, drink supplies etc. the guard and
police are there but quickly leave, the manager of the store is there
and even calls out that its ok to supply ourselves but to plz not
destroy the place. some listen and keep orderly most do not. We take
out looted rations back to the house and head out again for more. we
have a good cache of food and liquids atm and try to settle down for
the night.
night travel is out of the question we are not armed yet.


wednesday (I think)

we wake in the sweltering heat to ride out thru the neighborhoods and
to recon. now keep in mind the majority of the populace and remaining
citizens has ALREADY!! returned to a semi-tribal and gang like escape
from new York like state. 2 #ing days! we are wandering bands. we
see some of the pal we are with now are staying for the moment and we
do more recon into the city. we loot a circle k for electrolytes and
crabs. a blind man approaches me and asks me what way he’s supposed to
walk up the street to avoid the debris. the way is almost totally
impassable, there is no way to go. people stare at me in total fear in
my uniform due to my glover and mask. they scramble to me for answers I
do not have nor supplies to give. then I get yelled at and most ppl
leave in disgust. I am working for no agency I keep repeating to no
avail. everyone is lost and there is no communication. most ppl still
are grabbing smokes beer liquor etc. we hit the walgreens for jackies
medicine and start passing out the heart medicine and insulin to the
screaming old people in knew deep water trying to look for their
prescriptions. I have at this point donned my emt gear and although not
currently certified in LA I went freelance to try to put and official
face on for calming ppl and to ward off would be attackers. we
basically take 3 sorties for supplies and return to our neighborhood to
clean, gather and do patrols for safety. at this point we are armed
with brass knuckles, bats knives and axe handles. most is quiet in the
neighborhood. we see no police, guard or anything-just non-stop
helicopters in the sky all day. it rains somewhat to our relief to cool
us and fill some makeshift water catches I made. up the street there
are bonfires for meeting places, the neighborhood is now heavily armed
and point all weapons outward. We are 1 block from m-16 armed navy
guardsmen at the base that do nothing for us but say stay away from the
gate and go back to their bottled water. no police no help no anything.
we hear on the radio that 2 levees are broken and we might all flood
out. in the 9th ward where we are on the river we are pretty much the
last island left in the city. the french quarter is over run, cops are
looting just as bad as the ppl for supplies setting up armed posts
around the a&p and a french quarter walgreens. the officials are losing
it on the radio. there is no communication there is nothing, chaos
fills the streets and danger at every corner. fires are ripping thru
the city, no FD, no water to do anything. some police in our
neighborhood pull thru and rip open a small food mart and take lots of
beer then throw us all sorts of canned goods and dry goods. they
leave...we find a gun. .32 caliber hand pistol, the owners more likely.
We now have a gun, brass knuckles, an axe and large ice picks. we look
like frickin thunderdome. a bbq is set up for that night at a local
mans house 1 block away. he has a generator and is armed as well. he
has 10 ppl from st bernard parish in his home. A whole family that was
pulled thru an attic and left on the nearest bridge to go where they
were not told or even pointed too. the mans house we were at found them
wandering in the dark and took them in to feed them till he could get
them in a direction. I tended wounds and watched tv images for the
first time in days (he had a generator semi-working)we saw for the
first time how truly insane the situation we were in was. night falls.


4am

a 500-foot high explosion roars thru the night sky sending us from our
beds. I run up the street to get info. a propane and firework warehouse
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? has blown sky high. the fire is still burning
as far as I know. the radio keeps saying go to the super dome go to the
convention center we see some of the first troops a humvee shines a
light on us and speeds away into the night maybe 5 soldiers.but they
are all going to the cbd where the concentration of ppl are. we start
to hear of the death filling the streets. I tend to wounds in the
neighborhood and dole out some penicillin. the sky is still full of
choppers and we see no troops or police or anything anywhere.
occasionally as I pass out meager supplies I see a suv full of heavily
armed police drive by they stare at me in my uniform in disbelief as to
why it seems im bothering to do this. I just keep quiet and moving
along the streets. the man with the generator has fled. all cars are
being siphoned or already are. city busses are being stolen and driven
thru out streets for fun by local thugs. more steal forklifts and are
playing crash derby in the streets. things have fully progressed to
madmax and the warriors and every other goddamn movie you could imagine
of this # but way #in worse. We have sealed our blocks are tread
like fuedal ninjas on the streets ready to kill anyone and anything
that seems dangerous. my brass knuckles and knives havent left my hands
for days, im patching wounded ppl up with my brass knuckles
attached...then you see a 8 year old ride down the street on his bike
like its a normal day. bodies are floating up onto the median on st
claude st. packs of wild dogs are everywhere. more buildings are
exploding near the wharf and train tracks. I bring more supplies to the
lil girl up the street her grandmother steals them from her. she is
clinging in a deathgrip to a wet ruined harry potter book. a man rides
by me saying there is a man trapped in a building downtown with his leg
rotting off...I CAN DO NOTHING FOR HIM! I havent the protection or
supplies to even enter that part of the city. the water = death, feces,
bodies, typhoid, cholera, staph, hepatitis EVERYTHING! more city busses
are being stolen and they start to crash into houses for fun and look
for potential looting spots. men run down the street with mink coats as
a woman screams for water and baby formula....


SAFE

we finally get the team together and ride out sat afternoon it is like
riding thru pictures of Baghdad or serbia or HELL....we are in
hell...everything is on fire, bodies are everywhere.....WE STILL SEE NO
PPL TILL THE CBD....its all #ed....with the animals intact. my dog
is dead...say a prayer for a--- please...im
crying.....................we saved 3 dogs... 2 cats.... d----, j----,
j--- m---, JW and myself...we are in baton rouge and leave for ohio at
noon tomorrow....

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by motionknight
He urged the people to get out 3 days before the storm, and the ones who couldnt leave or didnt want to stayed behind.
Its not his job to organize a evacuation of his entire city, it isnt doable anyway.
And besides everyone underestimated the storm, yes the mayor to but is wasnt the storm directly that made the most casualties in NO, the dykes broke due to the fact that they were not strong enough, and whos fault is that, BUSH!He cut the subsidies for the dykes so drastically.

But the real tragedy happened after the storm, it took 5 days to reach the people in NO, 5 hole days.
This is certainly not Nagins fault now is it!!?? on the contrary!!without him help wouldnt be there now.
So please save your BS story for some mentally challenged person that you could convince.

So first you say that everyone underestimated the storm and it's not their fault, and then you say that it is Bush's fault (or whoever) and they should have known? Bit of circular logic...

Could the mayor have moved buses to high ground?
Could he have had emergency sandbag walls made just in case?
Could he have stockpiled some city resource supplies better just in case?

Oh yes...all that and more.

As for your insult at the end, I think that was in very, very poor taste.

The thing is that these kind of storms hapen alot in the US, why is there not a clear plan what to do for every possible level of storm(and other natural disasters such as earthquakes) for each city???
You saying that nagin had to have a plan ready??because 3 days isnt enough.
This kind of planning should lay in the hands of FEMA, and FEMA gets its order fom the government.

Anyway the biggest and most crucial mistake of this disaster was the fact that it took 5 days for the federal goverment and FEMA reacted, and that in this stage Nagin did anything in his power to help the situation.
I think its a shame people are blaming him because he really cares about his people and Bush couldnt care less.

I think this thread is poor taste so we are even zeddicus.