Potential Disaster Looming: Stop the pumps in New Orleans Now!

If you think this thread is just about "fish", you have totally missed the point of this thread. How many more lives will be placed at risk, because of this blind, cliff-jumping approach? Do you understand the potential long term impact and how that translates in not just health concerns, but economic ones???

So whats the plan? Where do you put all the water? Do you just leave the city as is? Do you tell the people to find some other place to live? What do you do?

Like I said before they have to act fast and act NOW. A lot of questions are going to be raised and no good answers given. But that is what happens when crap hits the fan and you have to do things on the fly. You want to get mad then get mad at the Mayor and the Govenor for having a brilliant plan setup before this happened...And they knew it could happen. But we are in the NOW and right NOW this is about the best looking plan.

[edit on 8-9-2005 by Timcouchfanclub]

[edit on 8-9-2005 by Timcouchfanclub]

Looks to me like the "toxic contamination" line is being used to force people out of NO - but nothing is intended to be done about it beyond that...

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub So whats the plan?

That is the point. THERE IS NO PLAN....We are just ignoring the issue and jumping off that cliff without knowing how high it might be!!!!

Do you just leave the city as is?

Possibly, if it is determined the toxins are too high.

Do you tell the people to find some other place to live? What do you do?

Let me ask you a question. LA has some of the most toxic waste sites in the country. People (children, whole families, etc...) have become critically or terminally ill as a result of living in proximity to those sites. What do you think the comparative levels of toxins are with these sites and those now certainly to be found in the city of New Orleans???? Would you MOVE and LIVE there now??? WAKE UP PEOPLE! This is only just beginning.

But we are in the NOW and right NOW this is about the best looking plan.

Thinking only about the "now" is what has been PRECISELY THE PROBLEM thoughout this entire fiasco!


[edit on 8-9-2005 by loam]

Oil spillages threaten Gulf of Mexico

Oil storage tanks ruptured by Hurricane Katrina may have dumped as much as 3.7m gallons of crude oil into the lower Mississippi river and surrounding wetlands.

Officials estimate the spillage at roughly a third of the volume of the huge spill when the tanker Exxon Valdez ran aground off Alaska in 1989. Last night experts said they could not yet assess the short-term effects of the spills but were hopeful there would be few long-term effects. Some of the oil is expected to find its way into the Gulf of Mexico.

But officials at the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality remain cautious because it is difficult to gain access to the area, which can be reached only by water. It is also unclear how much oil has been lost.

The largest spill, believed to be about 3.3m gallons of crude oil, occurred after two 80,000-barrel storage tanks ruptured at a Bass Enterprises Production site at Cox Bay, Louisiana, just above the mouth of the river.

The tanks were not full at the time of the rupture, a company executive said. Nevertheless, if current estimates prove correct, the spill would be big as a 1969 incident following a blow-out at an offshore well near Santa Barbara, California. That accident is seen as seminal to the development of the US environmental movement.

The second spill at the Murphy Oil Corporation refinery at Meraux, Louisiana, is thought by state officials to have released 420,000 gallons of crude into a flooded area around the refinery. The Murphy spill was discovered by aerial surveillance a few days ago. The Coast Guard, the federal Environmental Protection Agency and a clean-up contractor are working at the site to contain the oil. Contractors have also been dispatched to the Bass spill.

Eric Olsen, a spokesman for the National Resources Defense Council, said the environmental group was attempting to monitor the clean-up and remained concerned about possible threats to drinking water. In recent days concern has mounted over toxic water in New Orleans. The polluted water is being pumped into Lake Ponchartrain, where it is likely to cause significant short-term environmental damage.

Frank Manheim, an associate professor at Virginia’s George Mason University and an expert on pollution in Lake Ponchartrain, said the environmental impact “probably will not be very long lasting but it may be severe in the short term”. Experts said Ponchartrain – an estuary on the Gulf – should not suffer significant long-term damage.

But Prof Manheim, a former geochemist at the US Geological Survey, said the floodwater could be polluted with “things that are serious that we don’t know about”, including pesticides and toxic chemicals.

Read Frank Manheim's statement as "Maybe, maybe not." Yeah, Frank, I love your speculative science...Is that what YOUR water samples told you? Or did the EPA share theirs? Wait, that's right, they aren't sharing, are they? Ok, let's cover all the bases, shall we? Good job, Frank! I feel much better now.


[edit on 8-9-2005 by loam]

BTW, it's time I remind people what kind of agency the EPA is.....


I posted this last year....re-reading it again in the context of Katrina speaks volumes.....

EPA Looking at Using Tests on People

STILL MAKES MY BLOOD BOIL!!!

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by dave_54
What's the alternative? -- letting it sit there until it soaks into the soil and contaminate the entire city for centuries?

That will already be the case.

Do nothing until tens of billions of dollars are spent on building massive water treatment plants?

Perhaps, or as you start that sentence....do nothing. I know that sounds radical, but I didn't deal the cards.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by loam]

Brilliant. The 'perfect' solution is not available, so do nothing.

That is the head-in-sand shortsighted copout that creates environmental problems, not solve them.

There are other options in between letting New Orleans marinate in its filth indefinitely and pouring the filth into the lake and letting the oilspills slide into the Gulf to kill shellfish. Chemical engineers have been getting grants for years to study chem/bio methods of quickly addressing oil and other spills, and the EPA has incredibly sophisticated systems that are, according to their own website, capable of "removals of greater than 80% and the effective removal of additional pollutants including soluble and insoluble hydrocarbons (oil and grease), phosphorus and nitrogen, volatile organic compounds, PCBs, and various organically bound heavy metals (i.e. lead, copper, zinc, chromium). The performance of our filtration technology has recently been verified by the California Environmental Protection Agency's Environmental Technology Certification Program for the removal of 90% - 95% of dissolved petroleum and oils." EPA
If that doesn't sound good to you, and that's just the Aqua-Filter™ Stormwater Filtration System, here's a page of technologies designed to deal with polluted stormwaters. They might take a little more time, the disenfranchised evacuees might have to wait even longer to return to their destroyed city- but they would have been able to return to a place that had been cleaned to the best of our ability. With the huge, second mistake that is looming (the disaster of killing the lake, damaging the river, and hurting the gulf) who knows what toxic mess they will return to? Pollution, especially petrochemical and heavy metal, has been linked in endless studies to birth defects, to cancers, to early mortality. It just seems that in the wake of this incredible disaster, that a second, and perhaps more lingering and malignant, disaster is being created with every gallon pumped.

Rise and Fall

Excellent post. Thank you.

Unfortunately, political expediency got in the way of those options.

For those of you who followed my link above on the EPA Looking at Using Tests on People , you may want to check back there for an interesting update.

Back on thread....

For Timcouchfanclub and others who are asking the same questions, hopefully this will help you further understand WHY it really doesn't matter if the flood waters are removed from New Orleans....It will still be UNSAFE to live there.

Katrina Takes Environmental Toll: Water Could Be Unsafe for Years


By Timothy Dwyer, Jacqueline L. Salmon and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; Page A01

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 6 -- The dank and putrid floodwaters choking this once-gracious city are so poisoned with gasoline, industrial chemicals, feces and other contaminants that even casual contact is hazardous, and safe drinking water may not be available for the entire population for years to come, state and federal officials warned Tuesday.

How exactly will an entire city function on bottled water alone "for years to come???" Moreover, think about how HOW water is used in everyday life? Can you take a shower or bath in it? Can you let your pets have access to it? Can you water your lawn or potted plants with it??? DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU???

Environmental damage 'a creeping catastrophe'

Long after murky water is pumped out of New Orleans and debris is cleared from the Gulf Coast, efforts to recover from Hurricane Katrina will be hampered by the soggy, potentially toxic mess left behind...

Even before the storm hit, many of the region's waterways were among the dirtiest in the nation. Louisiana ranks fourth in the nation for releases of toxic chemicals into rivers and streams, and it leads the nation in releases of chemicals that persist in the environment and build up in the human body, according to government data...

In the short term, the sheer volume of water should dilute any chemicals that leak into New Orleans. But experts say the city could face long-term problems from contaminated sediment left behind once the floodwaters are pumped away.

"There are going to be concentrations that could turn some areas into brownfields," said Thomas La Point, director of the Institute of Applied Sciences at the University of North Texas, referring to a term used to describe polluted industrial sites.

Some neighborhoods could be so contaminated that they would be unfit for building houses, he said.

Industrial waste is certain to make cleanup efforts more difficult, La Point said. So are the many cans of paints, solvents, fertilizers and pesticides stewing in flooded garages and basements. If the chemicals haven't already leaked into floodwaters, La Point said, household containers soon will rust in the warm, brackish floodwaters inundating New Orleans.

"This is a creeping catastrophe," he said. "We thought they had missed the big shot, but they could be facing very serious problems for years to come."

To speed efforts to pump floodwaters back into Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River, the EPA is waiving the need for Clean Water Act permits. Some of the toxic muck will end up floating downstream or settling to the lake and river bottom.

Is the picture starting to come into focus??

[edit on 9-9-2005 by loam]

Yeah I know that there is a great amount of risk pumping the water out but where do they begin? It is one of those messes you look at and do not know where to start. In my opinion the most logical way to clean this up is to get the water out ASAP. They will have to roll with the punches on this one. It is going to be a quick fix to the problem that probably won't hold up. That is how we do things here. Quick fix it and as problems arise fix those.

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub
In my opinion the most logical way to clean this up is to get the water out ASAP.

Why? Leaving aside the issue of the new damage they will cause, it still will not be safe to live there. Have you read all the posts and links in this thread?

[edit on 9-9-2005 by loam]

Yeah I have read the posts but how are you supposed to start cleaning up and rebuilding with the water in the city?

The obvious situation is that we have joined the ranks of India, and Russia in regards to water quality... Congrats fellows...
We have now joined the deadly water club...

when the oceans die, we all die...
see you all soon....
WEEEEEEEEEEE

Originally posted by Timcouchfanclub

Yeah I have read the posts but how are you supposed to start cleaning up and rebuilding with the water in the city?

What I am suggesting is that maybe YOU DON'T.

Look, the fact of the matter is that no one took the time to see what was in that water to make an intelligent and calculated decision as to what to do with it.

Does that make sense to you?

Additionally, no one is considering that even with the water gone, you may still not be able to live there because of the contamination.... If that turns out to be true, which I believe it will, what was gained by draining the city? Or, more importantly, what was lost?


[edit on 9-9-2005 by loam]

Additionally, no one is considering that even with the water gone, you may still not be able to live there because of the contamination.... If that turns out to be true, which I believe it will, what was gained by draining the city? Or, more importantly, what was lost?

Yes all of this makes sense to me but all they are is theories. And the people who say that it is safe to pump out the water are basing this on theories. There are NO answers to this. This whole process is going to be a great example watching action and reaction. NO ONE has any answers to the problem at hand only questions. That is how it is going to be for years to come. At least they are doing something.

The way I see it they have two options...Drain the city and rebuild. Or build a Dam in the Mississippi and flood the rest of it. Plus if we let it sit or flood it again entirely do we fence it off? It will still be a lake full of nasty. And there will still be peoples personal stuff floating around. Also, Say we flood it again or just let it sit. How are these people supposed to get money from insurance? Is the insurance just going to take peoples word and cut them a check for whatever? HELL no they won't pay out a thing unless claims and Assesments are made. And I bet they won't pay out future flood damage because the government says scrap the city. Peoples lives will be ruined even worse if we sit and do nothing. If we do nothing then those who no longer have homes will also have no starting place.

TimCouchFanClub, did you read my post above about the 3rd option of at least attepting to filter out some of the pollutants? There are many technologies that address stormwater, oilspills, and chemical spills, and even more systems (such as municipal sewage systems) that do a great job of removing solid waste. I don't think anyone is saying "Let's do nothing." The point here is to do something, and to do it right.

PS. You have voted loam for the Way Above Top Secret award.

[edit on 9-9-2005 by Rise and Fall]

More doublespeak and outrageousness from the lips of the EPA.....

Contaminated Water Had to Be Poured Into Lake, EPA Chief Says

By H. Josef Hebert Associated Press Writer
Published: Sep 8, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP - The decision to pour heavily contaminated floodwaters from New Orleans streets into Lake Pontchartrain was a difficult one and could pose new environmental problems in the years ahead, the chief of the Environmental Protection Agency said Thursday.

"We were all faced with a difficult choice," EPA Administrator Stephen Johnson said in an interview with The Associated Press. "The choice was, we have to get the water out of New Orleans for the health and safety of the people and we need to put it someplace."

The other option was to pour it into the Mississippi River, where it eventually would move into the Gulf of Mexico, said Johnson. "Our collective judgment was to put it into Lake Pontchartrain."

In case anyone is confused, Lake Pontchartrain is not a "lake" in the sense that most people think of lakes. It is estuary with an average depth of 12 to 14 feet, having a direct connection to the ocean.



Feel free to take a closer look here.

You were saying Mr. Johnson from the EPA???

I also find it interesting that Mr. Johnson uses the phrase "collective judgment". What exactly does that mean?

He said he could not speculate on the possible environmental fallout for the massive freshwater tidal estuary, but the EPA was prepared to "take whatever steps we need to take" to deal with future environmental problems.

Does anyone really believe that??? We can't even clean up nominal Super-fund sites on land. How does the EPA expect to clean up the certain toxic current released in Lake Pontchartrain, Lake Borgne (also not a "lake", but a lagoon), and the Gulf of Mexico???

Of the watery soup that has engulfed New Orleans, Johnson said: "This water is very unsafe. It's a health hazard."

Yes. I think by now, everyone is clear about that.

The first set of samples tested show it has a level of sewage-related bacteria that is at least 10 times higher than acceptable, as well as a surprising amount of lead. Louisiana officials believe it is laced with an assortment of heavy metals, pesticides and toxic chemicals.

Johnston said the EPA is testing for more than 100 chemicals from heavy metals, pesticides, industrial chemicals and PCBs and expects a more definitive word on the makeup of the hazardous brew in the coming days, possibly as early as this weekend.

So far, the EPA tests have been focused in residential areas and in the French Quarter, not the industrial areas where the floodwaters are likely to be more heavily laced with toxic substances, said Johnson.

Note what they are saying about the water and they haven't even tested the water near ANY of the industrial areas??? Does this make sense? Somebody, anybody, help me understand.

"We don't know where the lead came from," said Johnson. "The samples that were taken were not near any industrial area." But he noted the city was full of old homes with lead paint and asbestos, which is probably also in the water.

Johnson said the EPA will also examine sediment for lead and other contaminants. If it is also contaminated, the cleanup could include removal of tons of soil and sediment.

Read...."we'll remove enough soil to make it appear we have done our job." Folks, this isn't a simple chemical spill in the traditional sense. This is something unprecedented in human history! Does anyone realize how saturated everything is and has become with this toxic mess?

"This is a huge area that encompasses three states," Johnson said. "Given the magnitude of this disaster we at this point can't say what the magnitude of the environmental challenges will be."

And the EPA's decision-making here helped? Let's just call it an "Act of God" and call it a day...

Johnson said the EPA is also taking air samples and using sophisticated detection systems to determine whether there might have been radiological releases from hospitals or university research facilities. So far no evidence of such releases has been found, he said.

Well, at least we got that answered.

The 630-square-mile Lake Pontchartrain formed some 5,000 years ago by the meandering Mississippi River. Many scientists believe it will survive the latest onslaught, although the effects may linger for decades.

Yes. Thank you for that. I feel much better. I'm quite sure nature will eventually take care of that, long before the EPA makes New Orleans safe and habitable once again. Of this, I am certain.

[edit on 9-9-2005 by loam]

upon looking at the photos of NO you posted earlier you could clearly see the oil and chemicles in the water.
the rainbow coloured streaks that line the flood waters.

pearsonaly i think they sould abandon NO and build a new city somewhere else.

Below is a list I posted in the katrina forum... there is a nasty chemical reaction occurring in the gulf and it will only worsen the dead zone.

Sri Oracle

List of chemical companies likely threatened by Katrina

The following is a list I have compiled from www.toxmap.nlm.nih.gov for the Lake Pontchartrain area.

1. CYTEC INDUSTRIES INC FORTIER PLANT
2. SHELL NORCO CHEMICAL PLANT EAST SITE
3. MONSANTO LULING
4. CROMPTON CORP POLYMER ADDITIVES DIV
5. OCCIDENTAL CHEMICAL CORP
6. CHALMETTE REFINING LLC
7. CROMPTON CORP.
8. DUPONT PONTCHARTRAIN WORKS
9. UNION CARBON CORP TAFT/STAR MANUFACTURING PLANT
10. CHEVRON ORONITE CO LLC
11. IMC PHOSPHATES MP INC. TAFT PLANT
12. SHELL NORCO CHEMICAL PLANT WEST SITE
13. NORTHROP GRUMMAN SHIP SYSTEMS INC AVONDALE OPERATIONS MAINYARD
14. AIR PRODUCTS & CHEMICALS INC (NEW ORLEANS LA FACILITY)
15. MURPHY OIL USA INC MERAUX REFINERY
16. DUPONT DOW ELASTOMERS LLC - PONTCHARTRAIN SITE
17. BUNGE NORTH AMERICA INC
18. KNIGHT-CELOTEX LLC MARRERO
19. MOTIVA ENTERPRISES LLC NORCO REFINERY
20. EVANS HARVEY CORP
21. NASA MICHOUD ASSEMBLY FACILITY LOCKHEED MARTIN
22. ATLAS STEEL & WIRE DIV. OF AMERISTEEL
23. UNION CARBIDE CORP CYPRESS POLYPROPYLENE PLANT
24. TAYLORTEC INC
25. VALERO REFINING NEW ORLEANS LLC
26. CP LOUISIANA INC.
27. GULF WIRE CORP.
28. SIGMA COATINGS USA B.V.
29. NORTH STAR STEEL CO.
30. SIGMA COATINGS
31. EVANS HARVEY INC
32. NASA MICHOUD ASSEMBLY FACILITY
33. BAYOU STEEL CORP
34. EQUITABLE/HALTER
35. SPECTRUM CONTROL TECHNOLOGY INC
36. BOC GASES
37. RESOLUTION PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS LLC
38. ENTERGY WATERFORD 1-3 COMPLEX
39. TRINITY MARINE PRODUCTS INC
40. AMAX METALS RECOVERY INC
41. VARCO L.P. TUBOSCOPE DIV. HARVEY COATING PLANT
42. BOLLINGER GRETNA LLC
43. DIXIE PRODUCE & PACKAGING INC.
44. JEFFERSON FIBERGLASS CO INC
45. MILPARK DRILLING FLUIDS NEW ORLEANS BARITE GRNDING. FAC.
46. PELLERIN MILNOR CORP.
47. CMP COATINGS INC
48. CROMPTON CORP.
49. ATLAS STEEL & WIRE CORP.AMERISTEEL DIV.
50. AVONDALE IND. INC. OFFSHORE DIV.
51. X-CHEM INC.
52. AVONDALE IND. INC. ALGIERS DIV.
53. SOLUTIA INC. LULING
54. SHELL CHEMICAL L.PST ROSE FACILITY
55. SOUTHERN COATINGS INC.
56. ELEVATING BOATS INC.
57. OCCIDENTAL CHEMICAL CORP. TAFT AMMONIA TERMINAL
58. M-I DRILLING FLUIDS CO. NEW ORLEANS
59. MADISONVILLE WOOD PRESERVING, CO. INC.
60. JOTUN PAINTS INC.
61. U.S. MARINE INC.
62. POLYCHEMIE (PEARL RIVER PLANT)
63. GULF STATE MARBLE INC
64. TEXTRON MARINE SYS. SHIPYARD OPS.
65. BAROID DRILLING FLUIDS INC.
66. NEW ORLEANS SHIPYARD
67. BOLLINGER QUICK REPAIR LLC
68. WALLE CORP.
69. MARBLE QUARRY INC
70. BOLLINGER GULF REPAIR LLC
71. AVONDALE IND. INC.
72. KENNER TERMINAL
73. CHEMCENTRAL/NEW ORLEANS
74. ORLEANS MARBLE INC
75. DELUXE CHECK PRINTERS INC.
76. MAGNOLIA CHEMICALS LLC
77. NORCO FRACTIONATION PLANT
78. HAY WILK GALVANIZING INC
79. PRAXAIR DISTRIBUTION INC
80. AIR LIQUIDE AMERICA CORP
81. SHELL CHEMICAL TAFT PLANT
82. UNION CARBIDE CORP CYPRESS CATALYST PLANT
83. CHEMRICH INC.
84. HOBSON GALVANIZING INC.
85. NEW MALTER INC.
86. CHEMCOM INC. OF THE SOUTH
87. BORDEN INC. DAIRY DIV.
88. SUNBELT CHEMICALS INC.
89. KIK (LOUSIANA) INC
90. CHEVRONTEXACO USED OIL RECYCLING PLANT
91. SHELL OIL PRODUCTS US
92. CHEMCAT CORP.
93. NEXEN CHEMICAL USA
94. TATE & LYLE NORTH AMERICAN SUGARS INC.
95. BREDERO PRICE HARVEY PLANT
96. SPARKLETTS WATER SYS. AQUA VEND
97. DELTA PETROLEUM CO INC
98. GULF STATES ASPHALT CO. INC.
99. KENCOIL INC
100. LONE STAR INDS. INC.
101. DELTA PETROLEUM CO INC
102. AVONDALE IND. INC. SERVICE FNDY.
103. BARRIERE CONSTRUCTION BOUTTE PLANT 625
104. LOUISIANA COCA-COLA BOTTLING CO. LTD.
105. US GYPSUM CO
106. HILL-BEHAN LUMBER CO.
107. U.S. NAVY NAVAL AIR STATION JOINT RESERVE BASE NEW ORLEANS
108. NEW NGC INC
109. BOLLINGER ALGIERS L.L.C.
110. ENTERGY MICHOUD PLANT
111. AVONDALE IND. INC. GAS FREE PLANT
112. BARTLETT CHEMICALS INC.
113. BOC GASES
114. CAPITOL STEEL-SLIDELL
115. COCA-COLA USA
116. CREWBOATS INC.
117. DIXIE BREWING CO. INC.
118. GREEN-WALKER GALVANIZING CO., INC.
119. LOUISIANA COCA-COLA BOTTLING CO.
120. SALATHE OIL CO.
121. SAZERAC CO. INC.
122. SIEMENS ENERGY & AUTOMATION INC.
123. SLIDELL MARBLE CO.
124. TRANS GULF IND. INC.
125. WECHEM INC

Bomb the city with seeds. The vegetation will clean it up over a course of decades. Until then, keep men, women, and children out. Treat it like bikini atoll. It is just not safe right now. Biofiltration is the only real solution to pollution. Any other form of filtration is actually just condensing the mess to be stockpiled somewhere else. This area needs to just become a big wetland that remediates itself. People have ruined this place for generations to come and now they need to stay away. Pumping this waste directly into the ocean is sin and will only cause more distruction, wider spread pollution, contamination of food supplies, and a larger dead zone in the gulf.

Or wait... would that just be more for Halliburton to fix?

Sri Oracle