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Government Coverup of UFOs - Proven?

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posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 03:32 AM
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Yep, there are countless anomalies when it comes to deny/inform by US gov.

One of my personal favorites is the US Navy denying Einstein was working at the supposed time of the phillidelphia experiment(s). Someone actually managed to track down w2 forms and proved he was there.

Yet with all the anomalies, all the witness's, nothing is changed. Not to speak bad of the US, but the US Govt is a trillon dollar beast and it has 50 years experience lieing and debunking.

We focus on small things around this site pretty often. A light in a photo, a chunk of metal that fell from the sky, etc. But none of it is big enough to punch the american public in the face to wake them up.




posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 04:01 AM
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Good initial post Gazrok.

It seems to me that some of the recommendations written weren't done with a full oversight of facts. I get the impression whoever wrote this stuff (the FEMA guide etc.) knows that there's something going on, but that's about it.

What I can't understand is how no one has come out from a real position of knowledge and disclosed everything. How could this possibly happen? From this lack of disclosure I would draw two conclusions.

1. We really shouldn't know what's going on, for our own safety. Either this or people in the know have been convinced by a few people that we really shouldn't know.

or

2. There are an inconceivably small amount of people with the complete overview.

Surely this must be why the best information we get is a partial view of what is going on. For example, the woman who was an employee at NASA who testified in the Disclosure Project (I forget her name sorry) talked about seeing photographs of structures on the moon. The way she describes the secrecy surrounding the whole thing makes me believe that there have to be a fairly large group of people with a fairly large, if not complete view of the facts.

So this leads me back to point 1, and the question becomse 'why shouldn't we know?', because I find it hard to believe there are so many people out there that would cover up this sort of information just for personal gain.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Procedure would suggest that #2 is more likely...

Intel information is compartmentalized and centrally controlled, with only a few at the topmost levels having the full picture (and these are "lifers"). This goes for ANY such project, from aliens to atomic warfare, etc. Interesting, that the year this all happened (i.e. National Security Act), was also the Roswell Crash (and just a month after the crash).... Hmm????



Nice work Gazrok. I think there is enough here to prove the government's policy, except I'm not sure about what role Disney would play in the coverup. On that website they are stating he was being used to disclose info, as in Cosmic Journey, not to cover it up. Maybe I missed the point, care to elaborate?


The point was that on one hand we're seeing the government state that mass media outlets and even Disney by name, are being mentioned as possibilities for use in manipulating the public idea of aliens. Then, years later, we see Disney cooperating with some in government on such projects. The point mainly is to show that there was cooperation. There seems to be a schizm between the disclose and don't disclose crowd, starting about that time and even through the mid-80's...but the supporting evidence isn't as solid regarding that. Also, we can tell from the letter that the Panel members were still active even years after it was over. There very well may have been some waffling on direction (especially since at least two went on to become UFOlogists) during that time, but in the end, the do not disclose crowd seems to have won out.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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great info Gazrok, your posts are always informative and well thought out. Was this partially inspired by the UFO files that aired on Monday?

Also, are the videos from Tremonton, Montana, and Utah available online? Specifically the one about Utah that they concluded it was a self luminating object, and not a bird?

Thanks



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 11:14 AM
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NOVA Great points and well put.

I'll add
The UFO phenomenon isn't one any government can ignore. Since they represent "Unknown Origin" or an "Unknown Threat" Government agencies and administrations have the responsibility to create procedures to accomodate them. These actions and plans do not show or illustrate complicity or cover up, simply measures to accomodate the likely occurance.

Last year alone I watched as former key administration cabinet members disclosed glaring omissions in the presidents domestic and terror policies. Two of them already wrote books detailing botched planning on the terrorism.
Point is, the presumed idea that any administration or the government can keep the lid on so tight for over 40 years regarding 100's if not thousands of direct UFO incidents, is increasingly difficult to fathom.

When people say "the government" they forget these people are career humans not unlike themselves. They are very prone to error and as history continues to prove, they will openly disclose conroversial evidence.

The absolute danger in UFO communities is that postulation and presumption are in themselves lead to disinformation. Like it or not, people will 'read into' and 'rewrite' an opinion on their website as fact. For the UFO community that to me is internal subterfuge. Something that would make government conspirators job easy.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by nullster
NOVA Government agencies and administrations have the responsibility to create procedures to accomodate them. These actions and plans do not show or illustrate complicity or cover up, simply measures to accomodate the likely occurance.


I think Gazrok's wonderfully informative survey of the available information does more than show a "plan" for dealing with the possibility of contact with UFO's, it shows that the government has a plan to conceal information from the American public and/or disinform the public through a combination of concealment and debunking. Why debunk something that hasn't happened? Why debunk? If the policy IS to debunk, have they debunked?

Gazrok was very clear not to suggest that his evidence supports the existence of extraterrestrials, merely that the evidence supports the existence of an intentional cover-up of information. This begs the question of what has been covered up, without making any more definitive conclusion. But, getting to the question at hand, it also clearly evidences the fact that we cannot trust the government position on this issue nor the government analysis of certain events (Roswell, etc.) where we know (assuming Gazrok's well-reasoned analysis is correct) that if there was contact then the government policy was to conceal or debunk whatever occured. Given the persisten belief that the government has been concealing or falsely debunking certain events, one has to wonder what the truth is.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 11:45 AM
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No kidding. Whackos like Adamski, Meier, etc. have done more harm to UFOlogy than any government actions....



great info Gazrok, your posts are always informative and well thought out. Was this partially inspired by the UFO files that aired on Monday?


Thanks. Yes, partly. I had some info I was putting together regarding the Robertson Panel already, so figured I'd go ahead and post it. It's nice to see some of these specials really getting better, but they still have to hold back in the interest of time constraints, making it interesting, etc.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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I agree the quality of UFO specials like UFO Files seems to have improved .

I came across this quote and thought it fit right in with the theme of this thread.

"It is time for the truth to be brought out ...Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense." - Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter Rear Admiral, Director of CIA -1947

New York Times, Febuary 28 , 1960

[edit on 2-9-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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The reality is, the UFO phenomenon is global. Is it not?

I know that people feel compelled to put the United States government above all other nations governments. That's real sad and unfortunate. It is naive to believe the rest of the worlds governments are shills for American extra terristrial policies. For me part of Denying Ignorance is plausibility, presenting incontrovertible evidence, and even the logistics of global massive cover ups. The notion that other countries leaders run identical UFO policies that suit our governments coverup convenience is weak. Complicity and cover up on a global level for 60 years to suit an American policy or agenda is sad and short sighted?

Do people really entertain global collusion when it comes to UFO's?
Historicaly even though East and West were a hairs trigger from Nuclear Holocaust durring the Cold War, they could agree on how to cover up UFO's and hide them from their nations citizens.

Patience
I can wait for the hard evidence to come forward should it exist.
Until then, I will not postulate or draw conclusions from questionable sources like websites and rebrand them as fact. Understand I am not knocking Gazrok's work here, but addressing the communities methods as a whole.

-EDIT-

I, like many others would like for the existence of aliens
to be true. Therefore, I have to be even MORE
exceptionally skeptical about it, especially when
dealing with "evidence" presented by "believers".




[edit on 2-9-2005 by nullster]



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Do people really entertain global collusion when it comes to UFO's?


It certainly isn't to protect the US. And it's a good point. I suspect that other governments have the same basic reasons the US does in covering it up. Inability to prevent it, not understanding it, and avoiding panic are but a few such reasons (and there are MANY more). Every government around the world tries to build certain infrastructure, such as schools, defense, etc. It isn't some grand collusion either, it simply is necessary. I suspect the same to be the case with this subject matter. All have their reasons for keeping it secretive.

The US isn't alone, but it does have the majority of sightings. You also have the MoD coverup in the UK. Nick Pope for example, is a British UFOlogist and former MoD member. It isn't just the US, or for just the US' benefit. There are many many reasons for ANY government to keep this quiet. The important thing eventually will be to determine just which of those reasons actually apply.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
The point was that on one hand we're seeing the government state that mass media outlets and even Disney by name, are being mentioned as possibilities for use in manipulating the public idea of aliens.

Comprenda, I see your point. Thanks.



There seems to be a schizm between the disclose and don't disclose crowd, starting about that time and even through the mid-80's...but the supporting evidence isn't as solid regarding that.

I was thinking the same thing, it would explain alot, but would be impossible to prove. It is as nullster points out that the government is not a single entity, but made up of individuals, but in this case they have differing opinions on disclosure.



Originally posted by nullster
Do people really entertain global collusion when it comes to UFO's?

I agree with Gazrok, that originally all countries were faced with the same problems as he stated. But I think that the policy is changing for some countries and many have come out of the closet, so to speak.

France: COMETA Report
Mexico: Mexico DoD Releases UFO Information
Brazil: www.abovetopsecret.com...

So I would say that there is some cooperation from other countries with the US, but not all.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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The general public can be brain washed, manipulated, and led astray fairly easily. I'm affraid this is the case with the UFO/ET subject. It needs to be reversed and I think people are starting to open their eyes and demand more facts from the government.



posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 09:56 PM
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Is the story of david aider true? GAZROK? It is an amazing story, and I want to believe. Was/is this story any part of true disclosure? In addition to this, has the Unified Theory been proven? How has this not been discovered by scientists today? I have been intrigued by the Philidelphia Experiement since I was 15 years old. (I am now 25) I know there is a lot of information from the experts on this thread. I've read the links, I just want to talk about the facts...Thanks!



posted on Sep, 3 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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Awesome post Gazrok, and I enjoy Null's posts too. Valid points all around.

I have to see although I've seem some recent opinions/articles that question Mr. Greer's motivations, I think his approach on this matter is the right one, and could ultimately be the way to full disclosure.

Whether or not UFOs exist, it seems to me that the bits of documents that Gazrok posted (should they be valid) prove some unconstitutional activities are under way by the American government. Isn't the US gov supposed to be 'by the people, for the people'? It seems to me that if a democratic government starts to make its own decisions regarding the welfare of their populace, without consulting said constituents, the democracy has ended. Somebody needs to put some thought into a serious legal effort to establish that these types of activities are unconstitutional. I'm sure the argument is National Security blah blah blah, but those docs Gazrok posted show an actual government initiative that includes fleecing the American public. I don't know about you, but when I elect officials into office, I expect them to tell me what the heck is going on so I can make some informed decisions. Creating policy which is specifically geared towards fabricating lies for the American public is something that should definitely be tested in a court of law. I'm no lawyer or law historian, so perhaps this has already been attempted, but it seems to me if someone was to do their homework, find the right media outlet and start the media blitz and then move on to have these types of policies contested, there may be a viable way to finally have full disclosure. And maybe get some democratic process back.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 01:50 AM
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"My aim here in this particular post wasn't to prove the level of coverup, just that the goal of coverup is there, as is the willingness to use
mass media to program the ridicule factor into the populace." == Gazrok

Will wonders never cease? A goal of coverup is not that far from using "alleged" coverup. You are very close to "unbiased" investigation here.

The second surprise was nullster. Of all forums, this is your quote that really belongs in here. Its one of my favorite illustrations of
the Occam's razor thing.

"Of course we know every government is slow, beurocratic, and inept in general world affairs, exception in the case of covering up
UFO crash sites and recovering alien bodies. Even the fattest donut eating beurocrat operates like a ninja to clean up all the evidence." == nullster

A cover up of the magnitude necessary to hide an extraterrestrial event would collapse under its own weight. Lets see, the Manhatten Project
security was busted well before 1947, and I think the next best security would be Stealth, which was sorta busted by Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising,
published 1986 (with his own, unclassified researches).



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 02:08 AM
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There are two logical possiblities:

1) Other governments don't know anything specific.

2) There is some form of extortion to keep quiet. One ought not assume that it is from the USA, but perhaps from non-friendly aliens whose intent is to keep their presence generally not acknowledged for their own unknown reasons.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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somehow I think your delight in finding out there are aliens

would dramatically change if you found yourself on their menu...



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by nightwing

The second surprise was nullster. Of all forums, this is your quote that really belongs in here. Its one of my favorite illustrations of
the Occam's razor thing.

"Of course we know every government is slow, beurocratic, and inept in general world affairs, exception in the case of covering up
UFO crash sites and recovering alien bodies. Even the fattest donut eating beurocrat operates like a ninja to clean up all the evidence." == nullster


Occam's Razor? I thought it was an illistration of ignorance of the facts. Fat Dougnut Eating Beurocrats are busy eating dougnuts while Military Recovery Teams clean up evidence.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by nullster
.

Last year alone I watched as former key administration cabinet members disclosed glaring omissions in the presidents domestic and terror policies. Two of them already wrote books detailing botched planning on the terrorism.
Point is, the presumed idea that any administration or the government can keep the lid on so tight for over 40 years regarding 100's if not thousands of direct UFO incidents, is increasingly difficult to fathom.

When people say "the government" they forget these people are career humans not unlike themselves. They are very prone to error and as history continues to prove, they will openly disclose conroversial evidence.

The absolute danger in UFO communities is that postulation and presumption are in themselves lead to disinformation. Like it or not, people will 'read into' and 'rewrite' an opinion on their website as fact. For the UFO community that to me is internal subterfuge. Something that would make government conspirators job easy.





You are very misinformed and totally incorrect here. The government can and HAS kept secrets for many years. The Manhattan project at its peak employed 600,000 Americans, yet maintained utmost secrecy until it was publically announced (see Hiroshima). We also have classified documents from clear back in WW1. There are numerous examples of government secrets kept locked tight. What gets leaked out, or is publically botched, is usually something political in nature. Thats why many black projects work completely out of the loop, with no elected officals having any say in the matters.

As a former employee of the government who worked around classified materials and areas, I know first hand just how well a secret can be kept.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 08:11 AM
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SCI is the key...

Compartmentalization. The best way to keep a secret.
And what did we see almost overnight in 1947? A complete re-compartmentalization of the entire Defense Department...



Is the story of david aider true? GAZROK? It is an amazing story, and I want to believe.


Not ringing any bells, do you have more info on this guy? For me, it's always best to first go in as a skeptic, as it helps to weed out the charlatans and nutters, rather than as a believer. Unfortunately, for UFOlogy, a vast majority of wild claims are completely without merit. However, there is solace in this. If even ONE outrageous claim is true, then the phenomenon is there whether we like it or not.



Was/is this story any part of true disclosure?


Again, I'd have to know more on this one, but even then, it'd be my opinion only. Don't take anyone else's opinion as gospel, as it's always best to decide for oneself. I'd be happy to weigh in on it once I'm more familiar with the case you mentioned, but honestly I can't recall this one...and even then, it'd solely be my opinion.



In addition to this, has the Unified Theory been proven? How has this not been discovered by scientists today?


More directed to our in-house physics experts than I,,,but my understanding was that physicists are still working on the Unified Field Theory. I'd recommend posting a thread in the Science forum here on ATS to hear from the physics heavy hitters, for a more definitive (and detailed) answer regarding this.

Being interested in the Philadelphia Experiment, I'd recommend some deep research into it... Unfortunately, it kind of falls apart when you look at it closely, as far as some of the more outrageous claims surrounding the incident. Remember too, the USS Eldritch was eventually sold to a foreign power if I'm not mistaken, mostly for scrap, hehe....so probably not something one would do with the reputed body parts fused to the hull, involved in dimensional travel, etc. The Philadelphia Experiment seems more myth than reality imho....when one looks at the sources of the story, and the logic of events that followed.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by Gazrok]



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