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Male/Female symbolism in Masonic seal

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posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 10:29 AM
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Just a thought I had:

In the Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown discusses that the ancient symbols for male and female were /\ and \/, respectively. The /\ represents a blade as well as a rudimentary phallus. The \/ represents a chalice (goblet) as well as a womb.

Do you think it is possible that the compass and square in the Masonic seal could have derived from these ancient symbols? People say that the ancients focused on the balance of man and woman and recognized the importance of both, and using both symbols together was considered a representation of divinity. The Knights Templar adapted the symbols as well in their own way. Some people claim that the Knights Templar either founded the Masons or at least influenced them to some small degree. Maybe the original meanings of the symbols were changed to a compass and square over time?

I know that freemasonry is a fraternity, just for men, but that would not necessarily discredit the idea that they may have incorporated some sort of male/female equality symbol in their sign. Just because they are a fraternity does not mean that they hate women.

I dunno. I'm just having fun with ideas is all.

Any masons who can shed a little light on where the symbols originally derived from are welcome to educate us a little more if I am way off.




posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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I personally don't, but there are some who think that the Square and Compass comes from the Seal of Solomon, which could have something to do with what you say. But most, if not all, symbolism in Freemasonry is tied in some way to operative masonry, architecture or geometry. If it's not one of there, chances are it's not right.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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The male female symbolism can also be found on the columns at the entrance of the temple, One of them represents the sun (or male energy) and the other represents the moon or female energy. I wouldnt be surprised if the S&C also represents the humain polarity in a way. Also, depending where and when a particular masonic rite was founded / is practiced, you might find women in some lodges. of course for a vast majority of masons here, who practices a craft founded in a country at a time where women were merely baby producing machines and maids, women in masonry is something wrong for them. I personally think that if you want to sucessfully do a lot of the rituals, you need a priestess as well as a priest, i.e. you need both women and man in your lodge. Else, its like trying to do sexual alchemy between men only, it wont work!!!!!!!

anyhow its just my opinion. You can be sure that the next 5 pages of this thread will be consisting of the masonic zealots on this forum bringing me down. So if they react violently, i am probably right



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by moonchild
You can be sure that the next 5 pages of this thread will be consisting of the masonic zealots on this forum bringing me down. So if they react violently, i am probably right



Well thanks an incorrect assumption if I ever saw one. You are not right, because you do not practice Freemasonry. You practice some sick form of witchcraft which wrongly calls itself Freemasonry, and it's nothing of the sort. Freemasonry is the product of the Enlightenment, not of paganism.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by moonchild
personally think that if you want to sucessfully do a lot of the rituals, you need a priestess as well as a priest, i.e. you need both women and man in your lodge. Else, its like trying to do sexual alchemy between men only, it wont work!!!!!!!


Guess what? I'm not a mason, but I do know that they don't practice any sex magic, or any magic at that. I really hope that you don't practice what you talk about. Making Moonchildren, or Homonculus as the OTO puts it, is sick sick sick. I hope for your sake that you really aren't one and that you don't plan to make one, because the process of creating a Moonchild is the ultimate expression of UNlove for another human being.

Masons strive for knowledge, not for magical sexual universal experimentation.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 01:04 PM
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don't read this post, if you, like me, hate having even hints of stuff from books and movies



I've noticed this too, the blade, chalice similarity with the square and compass. However, there are some big problems with dan brown. The basic idea of his book is that the holy grail used to be called the sang real and that this mean the 'royal blood', indicating tha the holy grail, which knights of the middle ages went on epic adventures to find, is in reality the secret bloodline of jesus, his descendants thru mary magdelene. People like this idea, but the problem is that its an entirely new idea, no one in those past ages every thought anything like this, its a modern idea made up by modern men.
So I ask, is the blade chalice idea something similar? Where are the blade and the chalice marks clearly said to represent men and women? I agree that it would make some sense, and I agree that the V shape (but usually there is something else associated with it, and usually we are talking about really ancient groups, like the sumerians or harrapanans i beleive), but the upside down v shape I don't recall seing in too many places as respresenting men, let alone in the context of the origins of masonry.


Interesting question tho, i've wondered it myself after reading the davinci code, which, I've really gotta say, is not anything like anyone presents it as. Its not a catholic bashing book, its not a mason bashing book, its not a historical work, and its not well researched. I liked it though.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
I've noticed this too, the blade, chalice similarity with the square and compass. However, there are some big problems with dan brown. The basic idea of his book is that the holy grail used to be called the sang real and that this mean the 'royal blood', indicating tha the holy grail, which knights of the middle ages went on epic adventures to find, is in reality the secret bloodline of jesus, his descendants thru mary magdelene. People like this idea, but the problem is that its an entirely new idea, no one in those past ages every thought anything like this, its a modern idea made up by modern men.


Well, I really wasn't trying to imply if his information about the Sang Real was correct or not. I should have been more clear: the masons study and incorporate ancient symbols from lots of different parts of the world to teach principles. I was just wondering if the blade/chalice concept was introduced early on (1300-1400's) and through assimilation found its way into masonry as a compass and square.

As far as the new concept of what (or who) the Holy Grail is, that idea has been floating around for a long time now, with a few authors writing about it. Dan Brown's book got a lot of attention because it is a fictional novel with parts of truths pieced together in a way that you really couldn't refute it, but still couldn't whole-heartedly accept it either. Plus it got lots and lots of hype well before it came out, which may or may not have been planned as a marketing device.



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Hey, check out this page from Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma." It talks about the male/female aspects of the compass and square.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Here's a (somewhat lengthy) quote. It's kinda neat.


Return now, with us, to the Degrees of the Blue Masonry, and for your last lesson, receive the explanation of one of their Symbols.

You see upon the altar of those Degrees the SQUARE and the COMPASS, and you remember how they lay upon the altar in each Degree.

The SQUARE is an instrument adapted for plane surfaces only, and therefore appropriate to Geometry, or measurement of the Earth, which appears to be, and was by the Ancients supposed to be, a plane. The COMPASS is an instrument that has relation to spheres and spherical surfaces, and is adapted to spherical trigonometry, or that branch of mathematics which deals with the Heavens and the orbits of the planetary bodies.

The SQUARE, therefore, is a natural and appropriate Symbol of this Earth and the things that belong to it, are of it, or concern it. The Compass is an equally natural and appropriate Symbol of the Heavens, and of all celestial things and celestial natures.

You see at the beginning of this reading, an old Hermetic Symbol, copied from the "MATERIA PRIMA" of Valentinus, printed at Franckfurt, in 1613, with a treatise entitled "AZOTH." Upon it you see a Triangle upon a Square, both of these contained in a circle; and above this, standing upon a dragon, a human body, with two arms only, but two heads, one male and the other female. By the side of the male head is the Sun, and by that of the female head, the Moon, the crescent within the circle of the full moon. And the hand on the male side holds a Compass, and that on the female side, a Square.

...

Springtime, is green with abundant grass, and the trees spring from her soil, and from her teeming vitality take their wealth of green leaves. In her womb are found the useful and valuable minerals; hers are the seas the swarm with life; hers the rivers that furnish food and irrigation, and the mountains that send down the streams which swell into these rivers; hers the forests that feed the sacred fires for the sacrifices, and blaze upon the domestic hearths. The EARTH, therefore, the great PRODUCER, was always represented as a female, as the MOTHER,--Great, Bounteous, Beneficent Mother Earth.

...

The COMPASS, therefore, as the Symbol of the Heavens, represents the spiritual, intellectual, and moral portion of this double nature of Humanity; and the SQUARE, as the Symbol of the Earth, its material, sensual, and baser portion.


Anyway, this page contains the Great and Evil Truth of what Freemasonry is all about - from the mouth of Albert Pike himself. Get ready... here we go... it's SUPER EVIL!


FREEMASONRY is the subjugation of the Human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual. That victory, when it has been achieved and secured, and the conqueror may rest upon his shield and wear the well-earned laurels, is the true HOLY EMPIRE.

...

Every Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, from the first to the thirty-second, teaches by its ceremonial as well as by its instruction, that the noblest purpose of life and the highest duty of a man are to strive incessantly and vigorously to win the mastery of everything, of that which in him is spiritual and divine, over that which is material and sensual; so that in him also, as in the Universe which God governs, Harmony and Beauty may be the result of a just equilibrium.


Oh wait a sec... that's the exact same thing that Christianity teaches...
So... does this mean that the theory that Freemasonry hides the true meaning of its symbols from its members, and then at the last second, it flips around and turns them into Satan-worshippers?

I think not.



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by trinitrotoluene
Some people claim that the Knights Templar either founded the Masons or at least influenced them to some small degree.


Get it? To some small degree? Nevermind...



posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by trinitrotoluene[/i
Guess what? I'm not a mason, but I do know that they don't practice any sex magic, or any magic at that.


Are you suuuuuuure they don't practice anything considered to be magic?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by trinitrotoluene[/i
Guess what? I'm not a mason, but I do know that they don't practice any sex magic, or any magic at that.


Are you suuuuuuure they don't practice anything considered to be magic?


Yes, I am sure that we do not practice magic. If there was evidence of such things in a lodge I would have demitted long ago.

To tell everyone the truth, Masonry isn't nearly as exciting as a Conspiracy Theorist would like it to be.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by No1tovote4
Yes, I am sure that we do not practice magic. If there was evidence of such things in a lodge I would have demitted long ago.


Okay, that'll satisfy my question. Can you see though using symbolism similar (if not the same in some cases) as magik practioners, how an outsider would be led to Masons using them for the same purposes?

Even in the public details such as this guy here:


Not to mention the interesting ones at the
www.arvadamasons.org... site itself. One in particular mirrors illuminati quite well.

What does this image impress upon us? Do Masons get a kick out of telling people, "No, see you don't understand the true meaning... Actually it's not what it seems is... Here's the actual history..." etc.


[edit on 16-9-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 16-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:54 AM
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WHat? are you picking on his avatar, now???? Maybe MY avatar has some hidden symbolism, too . . . (fade in creepy music)

The square and compasses is not about sex. Period. I say that on my honor as a mason, as a believing Christian, and as a man.

to paraphrase Freud: "Sometimes a drafting implement is just a drafting implement."

Masonry claims its origins in the work of men who cut, dressed and set stones to erect the monuments of antiquity. The craft uses the tools to teach moral lessons.

You could do the same thing with football: How the goal post are upright, and are the criterion for a score. Likewise, we should be morally upright, in all our actions as men . . . The field is marked in yards, and our end of the field is numbered the exact same way as our opponents side, from 10 yds to 50; this teaches us that just because someone's opinion is opposed to our own, doesn't mean that the other guy is evil.

So, have I just imbued the imagery of football with occult symbolism? NO. But you will, when you accuse me of occult practices, and then start seeing a plan for world domination in every halftime show.

But, you will ask:

If masonry ISN'T evil, then why all the secrecy.

I will give the answer plain and simple.

Masonry goes back to a time when it was illegal for a person to have a Bible open without a priest present (note the fact that the square and compasses rest on the Holy Scriptures). Back then, there was no place in society where men could discuss their personal beliefs (or doubts!) without coming in danger of the rack and dungeon.

So those early masons made an oath. That whenever a mason expresses his religious beliefs in the lodge, the other masons would never discuss his beliefs OUTSIDE the lodge, regardless of how the thought-police of the day might torture them.

They swore secrecy-til-death because they were practicing that most dangerous and heretical of all anti-authority acts: They were practicing philosophy and the art of dialogue!

They agreed NEVER to drop the oath. And they never have, even though now it is no longer a crime in many places to state your opinions openly.

There. I've just told you more about the secrets of masonry than ANY debunking site i've come across.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
WHat? are you picking on his avatar, now????


Yeah, as in, something where the meaning is not immediately apparent or is symbolic.


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Maybe MY avatar has some hidden symbolism, too . . . (fade in creepy music)


Hardly not apparent nor symbolic.


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
The square and compasses is not about sex. Period. I say that on my honor as a mason, as a believing Christian, and as a man.


I don't think so either, so I guess this comment wasn't meant for me as the previous one was. Being Christian makes me believe you'd turn tail to anything not right with God. It very may be that as you say here...


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
to paraphrase Freud: "Sometimes a drafting implement is just a drafting implement."


But those are not the only symbols used by the masons and some others they use are highly questionable, since they are also used by magik practioners and do not seem in alignment with God.


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
But you will, when you accuse me of occult practices, and then start seeing a plan for world domination in every halftime show.


I hope this statement was meant for someone else. I did not accuse you of occult practices. I'm looking at the 'tools of teaching' and wondering if the users of such fully understand the design and function of them. This is the conflict, they say that I don't understand how they work and vicey versey.


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
If masonry ISN'T evil, then why all the secrecy.

I will give the answer plain and simple.

Masonry goes back to a time when it was illegal for a person to have a Bible open without a priest present (note the fact that the square and compasses rest on the Holy Scriptures). Back then, there was no place in society where men could discuss their personal beliefs (or doubts!) without coming in danger of the rack and dungeon.

So those early masons made an oath. That whenever a mason expresses his religious beliefs in the lodge, the other masons would never discuss his beliefs OUTSIDE the lodge, regardless of how the thought-police of the day might torture them.

They swore secrecy-til-death because they were practicing that most dangerous and heretical of all anti-authority acts: They were practicing philosophy and the art of dialogue!

They agreed NEVER to drop the oath. And they never have, even though now it is no longer a crime in many places to state your opinions openly.

There. I've just told you more about the secrets of masonry than ANY debunking site i've come across.


This is contrary to what many Masons have said that there are no religious discussions inside the walls (along with politics). My question then is, which is it? Do you or do you not discuss religion in the lodge? Also, we're discussing personal beliefs outside the walls now so the oath seems to have been dropped somewhere or revised, yes?


[edit on 16-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God


This is contrary to what many Masons have said that there are no religious discussions inside the walls (along with politics). My question then is, which is it? Do you or do you not discuss religion in the lodge? Also, we're discussing personal beliefs outside the walls now so the oath seems to have been dropped somewhere or revised, yes?


There is nothing in the Masonic obligation about discussing religion or politics. Instead, the Worshipful Master simply informs the candidate that there is nothing in the obligation which will conflict with his religious or political opinions, be they what they may. There is a tradition in which there will be no political or religious arguments in the Lodge; however, discussion of these is not necessarily banned, especially in the so-called "higher degrees".

For example, political science plays a role in the higher degrees of the Scottish Rite. In the Mother Jurisdiction, potential candidates are required to affirm their belief in the superiority of free, universal, public education, as well as undying loyalty to the Constitution of the United States, and the complete separation of church and state. However, outside of these details, the Brother's political opinions are his own.

In religion, the degrees teach the doctrines of many different religions. But they don't teach them as "truth", only for educational purposes. The candidate can decide for himself what seems proper to believe, and what not to believe.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:31 AM
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Saint, I won't reply to your post line by line, since I can't keep my own use of quotes straight.

None of it was "aimed" at you. You're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Let's see . . . .

Oh, I just noticed that masonic light did a better explanation than I would have.

I'll give you another example. I served as chaplain for my lodge for a while. A Mason at the local VA hospital was dying, and asked for someone from the lodge to come and see him. The nurse called the first lodge in the book. The WM handed this one off to me, assuming that since I was the chaplain, the person wanted some religious help.

I went and saw the guy. He was from back East. He happened to be Jewish, and he assumed (incorrectly) that everyone in Dallas was a Christian. He wanted a Rabbi, and was afraid that if he asked for one, he'd be despised by the staff for being Jewish. He was afraid a hospital chaplain or a nurse or someone would try to get him to convert to Christianity. I believe he was also concerned about the reaction of some of his own relatives.

I visited him at his bedside, and he explained that he knew he was dying, and wanted to say Kiddush, but couldn't remember all the words. He wanted me to contact a Rabbi quietly, and have the Rabbe come say Kiddush with him before he died. He understood Christianity, but disagreed with its tenets.

He called on a Mason, because he knew, because of oaths taken, that a Brother would meet his needs, even if he disagreed with him on a philosophical level. And would also keep it secret from his own family.

And that's just what I did. I also staid, and said the Baruch attah, Adonai, Melech he-olam . . . with them.


Anyway.
Secrecy may no longer be required everywhere when you express your opinions. But it is the most ancient part of the Masonic rite, and at the core of the values is respecting a man's right to his own opinions, and your responsibility to respect his privacy. Changing that oath would change the whole tone of the lodge.

That said, I thin masonry contains a lot of very ancient information, some of it explicitly Christian, which not even most masons recognize. That's part of the reason I got into Masonry in the first place.

Obviously, I think secrecy has a place. Even if it's roots go back to when masons lived in a totalitarian society, I think it's still good to have.

Who knows. The world may need masonry again.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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In the Lodge, you swear on "Holy Scripture," but what that scripture is, is up to you. I remember a young Mason who joined asked for a copy of the Qur'an to swear on. There was definitely a moment when we looked at each other, and then went ahead and helped him. And of course recognized him as a brother.

So, I know, or have a good idea, of that fellow's faith. And he sure never told ME beforehand about it (though I think the fellows on the committee that recommended him probably had a strong suspicion).

So, while we don't preach, we do talk about our values enough that you can tell where a man is coming from. The opening and closing prayer is pretty general, and is part of the ceremony. Anyone who believes in one god wouldn't have a problem with it. But occaisionally you'll hear a lodge chaplain, or someone else pray, especially for brothers in distress or their families, and he'll pray "in Jesus' name." The muslims (we have two, now), never bat an eye. And I'm sure when one of them says "insh-Allah," none of us will react, either.

So no, there's no preaching or prosletizing. There IS a momoent or two when you express the things you value most, and that is certainly more of a sermon that any prepared speech ever would be.



[edit on 16-9-2005 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Masonry goes back to a time when it was illegal for a person to have a Bible open without a priest present

Danged anglicans....

And they never have, even though now it is no longer a crime in many places to state your opinions openly.

And of course, in many places it still is, and recently, in wwii the masons were thrown into concentration camps and an attempt at extermination was made.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
There is nothing in the Masonic obligation about discussing religion or politics. Instead, the Worshipful Master simply informs the candidate that there is nothing in the obligation which will conflict with his religious or political opinions, be they what they may. There is a tradition in which there will be no political or religious arguments in the Lodge; however, discussion of these is not necessarily banned, especially in the so-called "higher degrees".


Okay, that clears it up for me, thanks.



Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, outside of these details, the Brother's political opinions are his own.



Originally posted by Masonic Light
In religion, the degrees teach the doctrines of many different religions. But they don't teach them as "truth", only for educational purposes. The candidate can decide for himself what seems proper to believe, and what not to believe.


If only my World Religions professor at a state university felt the same way...



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 01:31 AM
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I was just trying to see if there was some sort of more ancient meaning behind the square and compass. Albert Pike says in his book that you can have your own opinion about what he writes in it because a lot of it is his own opinion.

However, if truly the square and compass can symbolize man and woman, that does not necessarily mean something sexual. Maybe it is meant to show that one cannot exist without the other - that we should respect each other - that we should honor each other. The page I referenced mentions that the square and compass are two instruments that both measure completely different things in completely different ways. It does not say that one is more important than the other. In fact, one would be useless without the other for construction purposes. A compass will point you in the right direction, but the square will tell you how far to go.

The page did not mention anything occult or magical. I will admit I skimmed it somewhat, but no one else seems to have read it completely to have found any specific objections.

I still will say that masonry teaches upright principles of truth, justice, and brotherly love. If they also teach their 32nd degree masons to love their wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters, then I will not condemn them.




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