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I want to join but I have questions for existing freemasons

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posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle
All I am saying is that the Craft increases the Will of the initiate as well as his Benevolency.

That concerns me.


I am not getting defensive. I simply fail to see how attempting to teach a man to be benevolent, honorable, truthful, caring an just could possibly be a bad thing.


[edit on 5-9-2005 by sebatwerk]




posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
I am not getting defensive. I simply fail to see how attempting to teach a man to be benevolent, honorable, truthful, caring an just could possibly be a bad thing.


I suppose it is a matter of belief. There is that which is more sublime to me than to be "benevolent, honorable, truthful..." etc. That One substratum leads me most often towards benevolency, honor, and truthfulness, however they are not my goals in and of themselves. Understand?

For example... should one be confronted with an evil and that evil demanded information from you that the evil would leverage towards evil ends... truthfulness would be sinful. Deception would be Holy.

Do you Know the word Brahman?

Sri Oracle



posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle
For example... should one be confronted with an evil and that evil demanded information from you that the evil would leverage towards evil ends... truthfulness would be sinful. Deception would be Holy.


But that's completely beside the point. Hypothetical situations cannot be taken into consideration when discussing morality and morality systems. Why should a hypothetical (and unlikely) situation deter anyone from pursuing knowledge and attainment of the qualities we discussed earlier?



Do you Know the word Brahman?


I am very familiar with Brahma, if that is what you meant to type..?


[edit on 5-9-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
But that's completely beside the point. Hypothetical situations cannot be taken into consideration when discussing morality and morality systems. Why should a hypothetical (and unlikely) situation deter anyone from pursuing knowledge and attainment of the qualities we discussed earlier?


I thought morality systems were designed to contingency plan the hypothetical? I was giving an example of where striving for Masonic ideals could cause harm ... like saying that not all isosceles triangles have 2 equal sides... some have three equal. There are outlying situations. (admittedly at this point we are splitting hairs near the edge of the universal) Nonetheless. A Guru should be free of worldly motive; devoid of sin. I do not believe this can be said for the Craft as guru.



I am very familiar with Brahma, if that is what you meant to type..?


I thought you might be.

We are on the same page here Brahma Brahman... it comes from Sanskrit which this forum does not allow for. Either English translation will do.

From Dictionary dot com:

Brah•man
also Brah•ma Hinduism.
1. A religious formula or prayer and the holy or sacred power in it and in the officiating priest.
2. The holy or sacred power that is the source and sustainer of the universe.
3. The single absolute being pervading the universe and found within the individual; atman.

For the most part I speak of 2 and 3.

Sankara said, "the knowledge of Brahman leaves nothing left to be known."

Why strive for knowledge when knowing the Ultimate Self leaves no stone unturned?

Acting as the Instrument of that Self there is no need to strive towards truth or benevolence. As I have stated... in a state of imprisonment... or torture... or war one may even be wise to deceive and strike down. The archetype of the Arch Angel Michael for example.

Striving towards a worldly end such as justice creates a cause... generates karma. All karma must be burnt off before reaching Heaven.

Sri Oracle

ps - It seems you are deeper in the Masonic rabbit hole than I. A question. What do you know of the Masonic take on Jihad?



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 12:04 AM
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And within the dark night of yesterday past, with my left rebel yet again consumed by sickness and malignant distortion, the unnamed beasts drove the same hand yet again to scribe the following unwanted scriptures as I flail in my inescapable and tortured slumber of common knowledge:

Good hypnosis subjects make great fundamentalists. (Apparently...). A ha a ha a ha. Kachoo and double-flutterbug. And thus the great teacher Master Ponzi- and Ponch exclaimed to the mesmerized theater-goers at all levels of all book-shuffled seating cheap and moderate in altitute.

And again and over thusly he said DO NOT reason with doubters or strays as they interrupt sacred programming. And so put'th and place'th all yer precious eggs upon the straw and rice and corn within my ancient breadbasket of druids past. Trust this thee incubation to me and me alone and stray not for ye fall to the victims' victimization. Seek and trust in the promised enlightenment yet practice it not in matters of plain sight. Or the common plane sight of commoners and unspecials and unthoughtful.

Question the questioners with disreason and displeasure and pity. Pity them and spite them for they are not my children's children's children's children. And on your 777.77th birthday you have been promised for the third time that you'll be born again under and within the eternal eye and the sign and watch yourself from point of past and future and 13 other levels of semi-precious and also sometimes extra-special vantage yet to be revealed unto the wise trusters and rite-ous but only them and never, unknowingly or knowingly, the KNOW-KNOTS.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle
I thought morality systems were designed to contingency plan the hypothetical?


Well, a better statement would be that morality gives one the tools to deal with exceptional situations, but the gist is the same.



I was giving an example of where striving for Masonic ideals could cause harm ... like saying that not all isosceles triangles have 2 equal sides... some have three equal. There are outlying situations. (admittedly at this point we are splitting hairs near the edge of the universal) Nonetheless. A Guru should be free of worldly motive; devoid of sin. I do not believe this can be said for the Craft as guru.


But in this case you are pointing out the exception, not the rule. Freemasonry's teachings, as those of the Bible, Torah, Koran (and any other guide to living a good life) are (for the most part) a timeless guide that have been tested over and over again. Obviously they have worked well for millions of men over the ages, as many of the greatest men that have lived (not just the famous ones either) have attributed their success to the lessons they learned from the Craft.



Why strive for knowledge when knowing the Ultimate Self leaves no stone unturned?


Ultimately, one must strive for a knowledge of the Ultimate Self, must one not? It is my observation that this is precisely what Freemasons are in search of.



Acting as the Instrument of that Self there is no need to strive towards truth or benevolence. As I have stated... in a state of imprisonment... or torture... or war one may even be wise to deceive and strike down. The archetype of the Arch Angel Michael for example.


So you mean to tell me that your choice not to pursue the degrees of Freemasonry was based solely on the EXCEPTIONS of what may be permitted human behavior? You still have not explained to me how this can be a bad thing.



ps - It seems you are deeper in the Masonic rabbit hole than I. A question. What do you know of the Masonic take on Jihad?


Well, I can tell you that there is not really a "masonic take" on anything. Freemasonry is made up of millions of men of different backgrounds, cultures, opinions and beliefs. It is impossible to have a unified "masonic take" on pretty much anything.

That being said, I can tell you that extremism and fanaticism of any form is completely against Freemasonry's principles. Jihad, meaning struggle, implies a self-provoked battle for the cause of faith. Whether it be a struggle against personal evil, or struggle against empirical evil, the belief that one must struggle to attain something such as faith seems, to me, to be a bit extreme. Nevertheless, Freemasonry has never attempted to dictate to its member how they should worship or practice their faith.

I guess it depends on exactly what you mean.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 01:15 AM
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[edit on 6-9-2005 by AlienWAre]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by AlienWAre
hahah damn Masons, go ahead and give your soul to the devil, you may think it is the right way to lead but you have no clue what your getting yourself into, that is what makes it soo powerful... man only if everyone know the truth....


Riiiiight, and I bet it is YOU that only knows the truth, right? Gimme a break.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
But in this case you are pointing out the exception, not the rule.


one could argue the exception is an element of the rule. Again... we are really splitting hairs here.



Freemasonry's teachings, as those of the Bible, Torah, Koran (and any other guide to living a good life) are (for the most part) a timeless guide that have been tested over and over again.


true - I've read most all I can get my hands on in the subject of "living a good life"



Obviously they have worked well for millions of men over the ages, as many of the greatest men that have lived (not just the famous ones either) have attributed their success to the lessons they learned from the Craft.


The only thing I am saying against the Craft is that it has the potential to make the ruthless more powerful. Yes... for the most part 99.9% of the time it is a good organization, teaching benevolency, etc. But it is a very strong organization. It's very existance creates power, both good and evil. It is like an amplifier in the heavens. That concerns me. Disturbs the chittam.



Ultimately, one must strive for a knowledge of the Ultimate Self, must one not? It is my observation that this is precisely what Freemasons are in search of.


one must. but has the craft not grown to a point where it is percieved by the uninitated as powerful? then are there not at least a few new initiates who's goal is not knowledge of the Ultimate Self but augmentation of personal power?



So you mean to tell me that your choice not to pursue the degrees of Freemasonry was based solely on the EXCEPTIONS of what may be permitted human behavior? You still have not explained to me how this can be a bad thing.


No... Once one learns to live righteously, in communion, blessed... there is no need for degrees, religions, or institutions of any form. I beleive this can be learned through meditation alone. Just listen. Jah is speaking.

My choice not to pursue the "degrees of Freemasonry" was based largely on the same reasoning that kept me from going back to college for a doctorate. With enough exercise of Will one can have doctorate level knowledge on 12 subjects in the time a PhD program could offer enlightenment and certificate of one.



Well, I can tell you that there is not really a "masonic take" on anything.
Freemasonry is made up of millions of men of different backgrounds, cultures, opinions and beliefs.


Well handled.



That being said, I can tell you that extremism and fanaticism of any form is completely against Freemasonry's principles.


Well... I am extreme and fanatical. This perhaps defines another rift between my logic and the Crafts. I have a Jihad before me in this life. I spend many sleepless nights figuratively sharpening damascus; getting my pawns in order.

Sri Oracle



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by AlienWAre
Masons, go ahead and give your soul to the devil, you may think it is the right way to lead but you have no clue what your getting yourself into, that is what makes it soo powerful... man only if everyone know the truth....


That quote reminds me of something Father Perez, a Catholic Priest friend of mine would say...

AlienWAre, your statement is simply too inflamatory to ever accomplish anything. Substantiate your opinion. What is the truth?

good night folks... its 2 AM in my neck of the woods, gotta be up at dawn to feed the fam.

Sri Oracle



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by MrNECROS
Yawn...how many more of these "impartial" RFQs is this board going to field?
If you want to hear from existing Freemasons then on over to MasonicInfo.com or some other official mouthpiece of bla bla blibbity bla.


Masonicinfo.com is an information board. Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see a forum. However, I know that there is a forum here, and that both Masons and non-Masons come here to talk. At this site I can hear both ends of the argument. So, when I ask a question, I get to hear responses from both ends of the scale. I'm not trying to be "safe" or "non-offensive," I just want straight answers and straight rebuttals.

Anyway, onto other things. It is my understanding that freemasonry is not a religion, and does not profess a doctrine of salvation. This leads me to infer that masonry cannot say that it teaches *THE* Truth or that it shows *THE* Way, because this would mean that it claims to be the only way to God. In fact, It cannot even say that it teaches *A* Way, because that would mean that it claims itself as a religion that can take you to God. I would allow it to say that it teaches Truths. Every freemason pamphlet says that salvation or finding a path to God is the responsiblity of the church that the mason belongs to, NOT the Craft's.

It has already been stated on this thread that masonry takes many teachings from around the world, from current religions and ancient ones, and teaches about them. It seems that masonry takes good values from various religions and presents them. This is not a bad thing. If I become a mason and find there is something that I find I do not agree with, I will not accept it into my heart, and I may state that I don't accept it at an appropriate time and place... but whatever.

Whoever says that the study of ancient religions is evil... well, make sure that you aren't a Jew that studies a book from 3500 BC, a Christian that studies a book from 325 AD, or a Muslim that studies a book from the AD 500's (correct my date if I am wrong). I am a Christian and I study the New Testament, which talks about Christ's life and ministry. I also study the Old Testament, which is Jewish script. Actually, they were both written by Jews, but who's counting? I study the Old to enhance my understanding of the New.

AAAAAAND another thing, which my sound a bit off-topic, but kind of relates in a round-about-sort-of-way (while I am still on my high-horse)...

We Christians needs to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL whom we call pagan devil-worshippers. I am sure that most Christians would call a Sun-God worshipper either a pagan or a Satanist. But guess what? A Sun-God worshipper invented modern Christianity and many of its core dogmas. He never even converted to Christianity or got baptized until the day before he died.

His name was Emporer Constantine. He held the Nicean Council, where he had all the top Christian leaders get together and unite/force-fit their contrasting beliefs under threat of banishment from the Roman Empire. "Banishment from the Roman Empire" was a euphamism for execution, in that you were stuck on a rock in the middle of the ocean with no food or water.

Anyway, after the apostles had been killed off, the early Christian leaders didn't have anyone (i.e. Paul) to write epistles to them and yell at them for screwing everything up, and Christianity started growing different viewpoints about lots off stuff - like whether or not you have to get baptized in water, or the true Nature of God, etc etc.

Constantine saw the rising potential of Christianity to unify a dying Empire, and told these leaders to make a universal (or "Catholic" if you prefer a term we all have heard) Christian religion that they could all negotiate on. During this council, the books of the Bible were negotiated, the Nature of God was negotiated, and lots of other lovely half-truths were born.

Of course, God's nature is eternal, and no matter what a man may believe or come up with, He is always the same. But of course, a few dozen men in a room can negotiate among each other and "invent" a new One-in-Three, Three-in-One God that is everywhere and nowhere and inside all of us at the same time. Of course I am saying that the idea of the Trinity was invented BY and FOR a SUN-GOD WORSHIPPER. It is still a dogma today because Christianity was forced on the Roman Empire, and past Popes killed you if you were suspected of not believing every single dogma that was taught to you. Just look at the inquisition that started in the 1400's AND WENT UNTIL 1805 (for crying out loud). People still seem to have this same fear of rejecting the idea of the Trinity. Oh well. Papi culpa.

People say that every word in the Bible is absolutely, positively the word of God. You know, the Epistles of Paul are organized in decreasing order of size, except for Hebrews which was stuck in the back beacuse people are still arguing to this day if it was really written by Paul. If we don't know if it was written by Paul (a man of God) or an imposter, then why do we contain it in the perfect book of the word of God? Why do we find conflicting accounts of the Old and New Testaments if the Bible is perfect? Why do the Dead Sea Scrolls have different readings from the Bible that Constantine gave us?

I'm not saying that Christianity is wrong by ANY means - I believe in it fully and nothing can persuade me away from it. But we have to admit and accept that many important truths have been lost and modified over the period of two-thousand years, whether by oppressive monarchs or by humble forgetfulness.

My point:

If Christians study the Old Testament (Judaism) to understand the New Testament (Christianity), then why the heck can't freemasons study other religions to further understand their own? Why can't they study the beautiful things that make good men good, even if they disagree with the mode of salvation? The Old Testament teaches the Law of Sacrifice, but the New Testament forbids it. I'm not tearing out 3/4 of my Bible because the Old Testament is outdated - I read it to understand why I believe what I believe. I suspect freemasonry's teaching are nothing more than that. Any freemasons can correct me on this, please.

Anyway... in the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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And again the consumed left appendage of hatred scrawled upon the bedpost as my slumberous agony spiraled a tumaltuous pre-dawn hope-absence into dizzy sickness yet to again awake within wet horrors:

I asketh yooth sired and after-named Trinitrotoluene in alert and apprehensive pensivity. Who be These and Those nondesript souls aforementionedith as Christians. Be he-they those of mormonity latter-days-ago or be they not of the rattling Cosmic Snake-Dancers. And being as such of the most all-inclusive Christians then should not also in earnest and pensive alertness I asketh that the Others not be Sum-Lumpedeth into such also an all-inclusive and most non-exclusive group known to Unknowing Commoners as Pagans? For this I mostly wonder wonderously and wonderfully and worshipfully and double-extra Specially.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle
The only thing I am saying against the Craft is that it has the potential to make the ruthless more powerful.


Again, I don't see how teaching morals can make someone more ruthless or more powerful.



one must. but has the craft not grown to a point where it is percieved by the uninitated as powerful? then are there not at least a few new initiates who's goal is not knowledge of the Ultimate Self but augmentation of personal power?


Absolutely, and those men come to one or two meetings, realize that this will never happen, and never show up to lodge again. I have seen this myself MANY times.



With enough exercise of Will one can have doctorate level knowledge on 12 subjects in the time a PhD program could offer enlightenment and certificate of one.


Absolutely true.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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The only thing I am saying against the Craft is that it has the potential to make the ruthless more powerful


Funny I could say the same thing about joining the local contry club. I could use my contacts at the club to work some shady deals while playing the back nine.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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If Christians study the Old Testament (Judaism) to understand the New Testament (Christianity), then why the heck can't freemasons study other religions to further understand their own?

Freemasons are free to study any religion or any belief system they like. In fact I have always been told that we should look for the good where every we find it. I don't know why you feel that Masonry is tied to Christianity. In my lodge we have Jews, Moslems, Hidus and others. The teachings of the lodge tend to be Christian in nature due to it being founded mostly by Christians, but all who belive in a power higher than themselves ( surpreme being) may join. When some one joins who is not a Christian, they choose which holy book to take their obligation on. The masons have always tought its members to respect others religous beliefs.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by lost in the midwest]

[edit on 6-9-2005 by lost in the midwest]



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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If Christians study the Old Testament (Judaism) to understand the New Testament (Christianity), then why the heck can't freemasons study other religions to further understand their own?


The entire Scottish Rite branch of Freemasonry's degrees are basically a study of ancient cultures and religions, including Christianity, Kabbalah, Brahma, Judaism...



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by lost in the midwest
The teachings of the lodge tend to be Christian in nature due to it being founded mostly by Christians


And that would occur naturally. America was settled by Puritans, and a lot of laws and viewpoints in our society reflects that. Of course, we (well, the majority of us) allow people to worship as they see fit.

Naturally, freemasonry being founded by Christians would have a strong Christian overtone, but without going as far to exclude others. All beliefs are respected, but not forced. I guess it's like Separation of Church and Masonry.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by lost in the midwest
The teachings of the lodge tend to be Christian in nature due to it being founded mostly by Christians


I don't think the teachings of Freemasonry are themselves overtly Christian. Depending on how the lodge is run and on a mason's interpretation of them, the teachings can border on the religious or more on the esoteric.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 06:19 AM
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Freemasonry as I know it has very little to do with Christianity. Depending who you speak to there seems to be little evidence to suggest that it was founded by Christians - other than the operative stone masons who formed guilds to regulate the construction of Europe's great cathedrals - but some scholars will say that Freemasonry easily predates that era - and was possibly in existence in pre-Christian times.

Freemasonry is a great filtering mechanism that will find out a person who has unworthy motives and hide its truths from the untrustworthy and the profane.

Some truths may be elegantly and succinctly expressed and laid out in a plain and obvious form for those who understand them - yet to the neophyte they are unintelligible.



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 07:48 AM
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maybe I should have said Biblical instead of Christian. The fact of the matter is that in most lodges the bible is found on the alter. I have sat in Jewish lodges where it is the Talmund. When I said Christian in nature I was refering to early Masons of the 1700s in England. I Have little doubt that Masonry draws for many different Religons and Moral teachings. In fact that is one of the beutiful things about Masonry. We are taught to accept truth from what ever source, where we find it. The point is that this truth is for each of us to find for ourselves. We just happen to be traveling partners with the same goal of self improvement. I belive it is much better to have some one with you to keep each other on that path.




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