Question for the religious....

No offense, but comprehensive reading/writing (or lack of) also plays a large part in the interpretation of the bible. Sorry, I don't play games. I do bite back though.

Yeah, I'm sorry too. It was immature of me to start a fight like that.

Anyway....

Jesus was only human. He can make mistakes. Don't be so quick to judge a man like he. Bet he was just testing his disciples or doing the robin hood thing.

What bad is it that a king has a tiny less wealth when a dying man can eat?

According to many religions, Jesus was god...not just a human. You know of the holy trinity, right? It originally catholic belief, IIRC, but I've heard many people who aren't catholic say the same thing. It's taught in a variety of churches, since most are an offspring of catholicism.

Religion is a "man" thing , it has very little to do with G_d , it's purpose is to control segments of the population with various beliefs.
Now if we could just get those pastors and priests and such to tell us what the big guys name is ,we wouldn't need them anymore would we?,we could just talk to the big guy ourselves.
Christianity in it's original form discourages following religions and supporting governments.
It is a personal thing.
Morals and responsibility .
IMHO
IaSHuA

I disagree that jesus was god. The whole son of god thing doesn't mean much because the bible says everyone is gods "children" or are the "son of god". I think he was just a regular guy.

If he was indeed only human, then I have a theory. I've always thought it could be very possible that Mary was artificially inseminated by alien visitors, who were mistaken for god, of course. This would explain both Jesus having some telekinetic type powers, and the strange references to things coming out of the "heavens". We all know that the "heavens" is just the sky. Besides, there are references to alien visitations that date way back before the bible. There are even cave drawings of what appear to be spacemen and craft. I think there may be some truth to the story, but they just had no idea what they were seeing. In attempt to explain, their words became very confusing. How would anyone of that time describe something as simple as a laser pointer? Think about it. It would sound like some glorified magic, for sure.

Originally posted by TheManWithThePlan
I disagree that jesus was god. The whole son of god thing doesn't mean much because the bible says everyone is gods "children" or are the "son of god". I think he was just a regular guy.

The whole argument about Jesus being a son of God or not, has to to whether hhe was rightiuous or not. If you follow the Law you are a son or a daughter of God, and the argument about Jesus isn't if he is God or not, but if he sinned or not. Jesus didn't sin. The Law was made out of his life. Time is just an illusion. Because tomorrow is served before yesterday is gone. And with some simple grips if you have the power, you can actually make someone invincible and sinless by creating a law for instance based on this unborn person's life. And that was what happened to Jesus. If Jesus ever sinned it wasn't in the Law, for he is the Law. But since the Jews had added stones to the burden of the Law by adding new laws and restrictions of human origin, the Law was no longer the Law, and if you look at all the things they accused Jesus of, you will see that it is these laws that is in question, the laws of the Talmud etc. Godless laws that were added after Babylon by people who didn't know what they were doing.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Following the law does not refer to the laws of man,it refers to the law of god,which if followed really eliminates the need for the laws of men,doesn't it.
But somehow we are expected to be law abiding citizens to man's laws...........but we are not supposed to serve governments.............??.
Morals and responsibility.
Too many people will not take responsibility for what they do.

Originally posted by uNBaLaNCeD
Following the law does not refer to the laws of man,it refers to the law of god,which if followed really eliminates the need for the laws of men,doesn't it.

Well, no law can eliminate itself, and laws of men will always be needed to regulate society in some way. Like traffic laws for instance. God hasn't given us much when it comes to this and other aspects of life that needs regulation. This is because God's Law is something else than merely a set of laws to regulate society. For the whole Law is a gigantic prophecy. The Law is the image of the Messiah so to speek. A source given to understand God. Every word and sentance, every dot or iota in the Torah is about the life of Jesus. The letters are like cells in his body. God wants us to be like Jesus. We should strive to become sinless like he is sinless. That's all.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by mikromarius
Jesus didn't sin.

Once again, this is very dependant on what you'd like to believe, or what you've continually been told.

1. Jesus taught that getting angry is considered a sin and even punishable by hell [Matthew 5:21-22]. yet there are many times in the Bible where Jesus vividly and loudly displayed anger.

[Mark 3:5, Matthew 21:12-15; Mark 11:15-19; Luke 19:45-47; John 2:13-17, Matthew 21:19; Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 12:22-31; Mark 3:20-30, Matthew 11:22-24; Luke 10:13-15.]


2. The Gospel teaches to be honest [Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:22, John 8:44], not to give false statements

Then we see Jesus doing just that, when Jesus was asked to go to Jerusalem, Jesus told them that he would not be going, but then he later went secretly to Jerusalem by himself ( John 7:2-10 ). (Note: the words "not yet" which appear in some versions at John 7:8 are an editorial "emendation"to the original text in an apparent effort to rectify the false statement by Jesus.

During his hearing before the high priest, Jesus said: "I have spoken openly to the world; I have -always- taught in the synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I -never- spoke secretly" (John 18:20) This is in direct conflict, to what we find elsewhere.

He taught on the "mount" (5:1-7:28), by the sea (Matthew 13:1), on the plain (Luke 6:17-49), and in other places. To his disciples he said: "To you has been given the -secret- of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn about and be forgiven" (Mark 4:11-12).


3. John's Baptism was for the "Forgiveness of Sins"

Jesus was Baptized [Mark 1:4]


4. Suicide is a sin (1Corinthians 3:17) and (Exodus 20:13). according to Paul, Jesus ALLOWED himself to die. (John 19:30)

Furthermore, Jesus even claims to be a sinner according to the Bible;

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone." [Mark 10:18]

Jesus stated that anyone ((without sin)) to condemn a woman who had sinned, than he himself declined;

Joh 8:11 "...And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

[Edited on 9-9-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
It's sort of like Shroedinger's Cat..."If you haven't ever seen God, does He actually exist?"

If you've never seen or heard Shroedinger's Cat, are you going to feed it?

I feed Him (again, use of the name as refering to God has nothing to do with the "common perception of God as an old, white-bearded human male) faith, but that's all He really wants. After all, hypocracy is why I reject organized religions; When they pass around the collection plate, I know for a fact that money doesn't go to God (because He doesn't need it & has no use for it).
At any rate, if you've *heard* about Schoerdinger's Cat (Which it's obvious you have, otherwise you wouldn't have asked about feeding him), wouldn't you at least be curious enough to look for him?

Originally posted by SatyrI realized that we're not the reason for everything. It's arrogant to even assume so! We're actually quite insignificant.

So wouldn't be also arrogant to presume that something so insignificant was not actually *created*? If we were quite as insignificant as you seem to presume, then we should never have existed...After all, the evolution of human beings relied as much on *chance* to continue surviving long enough to evolve further as it does on evolution itself. We're still relative *newcomers* on Earth, when compared to many other species that have survived longer than us. At the rate we strive to create uneeded conflict with each other, we're already going downhill & could wind us extincting ourselves much sooner than other species in history.
I'm not trying to say that we were created for any purpose except perhaps to survive & to get along with each other...After all, throughout all of known (or learned) history, cooperation has been a more powerful strategy for survival & prosperity than intentional conflict has been. Where humankind has gone most wrong is in seeking conflict for any purpose other than to perpetuate the survival of its own species.
...I notice that *you* seem to be in a very conflictive state of mind most of the time...

Originally posted by Satyr We're just earth food. The earth will absorb us all, eventually.

And that's exactly what will happen unless we can believe in something *more* than what we are right now...Useless conflict is going to fulfill that destiny. Wouldn't it be much better to turn ourselves into something better than a self-extincting species? How about learning to get along with each other & cooperate for a common destiny that will take us *beyond* that fate? Yeah, we're insignificant now (just another period of evolution among countless others), but we can change that for the better.
To me, that's what God means; Having the intellect & spirit to make something better of ourselves *before* we wind up like the dinosaurs...

Originally posted by Satyr
According to many religions, Jesus was god...not just a human. You know of the holy trinity, right? It originally catholic belief, IIRC, but I've heard many people who aren't catholic say the same thing. It's taught in a variety of churches, since most are an offspring of catholicism.

Actually, Catholicism also sprung from the Hebrew religion even older than Rome...And Catholicism is also guilty of "borrowing" ideas & concepts from the older "pagan" religions that came before it & modifying those original ideas to fit within itself--All the better to make easier conversions, I guess...

At any rate, I said that I stay away from *organized* religions for a reason; As the intro to this Topic states, we're asking the question of "Does The Idea Of God Play A Pivotable Role In The Conspiracy?" My answer is, "YES", because *organized* religions have always used the idea of God as a means to control the hearts & minds of as many people as they could. Otherwise, why all of the Jihads, Crusades & Inquisitions when God told us not to kill each other?

Originally posted by uNBaLaNCeDBut somehow we are expected to be law abiding citizens to man's laws...........but we are not supposed to serve governments.............??.

At least, that's what the government wants you to think. Also consider Bush's use of God's name when he screws people over more than before...Don't tell me you haven't heard of *that*, because even Time magazine had an article about how "religious" Bush is.

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by mikromarius
Jesus didn't sin.

Once again, this is very dependant on what you'd like to believe, or what you've continually been told.

1. Jesus taught that getting angry is considered a sin and even punishable by hell [Matthew 5:21-22]. yet there are many times in the Bible where Jesus vividly and loudly displayed anger.

[Mark 3:5, Matthew 21:12-15; Mark 11:15-19; Luke 19:45-47; John 2:13-17, Matthew 21:19; Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 12:22-31; Mark 3:20-30, Matthew 11:22-24; Luke 10:13-15.]

Are you saying that Jesus said that all men who have been angry goes to hell? Or that anger is a sin? Please show me how Jesus said God is a sinner, for God is easily irritated.

2. The Gospel teaches to be honest [Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:22, John 8:44], not to give false statements

Then we see Jesus doing just that, when Jesus was asked to go to Jerusalem, Jesus told them that he would not be going, but then he later went secretly to Jerusalem by himself ( John 7:2-10 ). (Note: the words "not yet" which appear in some versions at John 7:8 are an editorial "emendation"to the original text in an apparent effort to rectify the false statement by Jesus.

Read the parable of the two sons, and then say what you said again. You find it in Matthew 21.

During his hearing before the high priest, Jesus said: "I have spoken openly to the world; I have -always- taught in the synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I -never- spoke secretly" (John 18:20) This is in direct conflict, to what we find elsewhere.

He taught on the "mount" (5:1-7:28), by the sea (Matthew 13:1), on the plain (Luke 6:17-49), and in other places. To his disciples he said: "To you has been given the -secret- of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn about and be forgiven" (Mark 4:11-12).

They didn't meet secretly, that's what is the deal here. He had disciples, or students as they would have been called today, and mentored them as a teacher would mentor his students today, he taught them the secrets of the mysteries, which is the diametrical oposite from secrecy. Parables are one of the most effective ways of learning. Jesus took the candle and put it in a candelabrum. Why would he bring the candle out on the "mount", by the sea or on the plain? These places have the Sun, they don't need a candle.

3. John's Baptism was for the "Forgiveness of Sins"

Jesus was Baptized [Mark 1:4]

Hehe. The sin won't run away from you if you are baptised. What the verse says is that in order to be forgiven, having been baptised is a pro and a pluss, that's all. You won't be automatically forgiven if you baptise, this isn't the point.

4. Suicide is a sin (1Corinthians 3:17) and (Exodus 20:13). according to Paul, Jesus ALLOWED himself to die. (John 19:30)

Have you ran out of arguments now? How on Earth can you call a murder of justice suicide? He didn't beg for his life, and he didn't protest, but humbly he let them do their thing as quietly as possible as if not to make them sin more than they already were doing. Suicide my a$$!

Furthermore, Jesus even claims to be a sinner according to the Bible;

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone." [Mark 10:18]

And this means that Jesus is a sinner how? Jesus can't do anything whether good or bad if not God allows him to. Hence if Jesus did good deeds and mighty miracles, it wasn't him who did it, but God.

Jesus stated that anyone ((without sin)) to condemn a woman who had sinned, than he himself declined;

Joh 8:11 "...And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

"He who is among you who is without sin; he may cast the first stone". When they had all left, only Jesus and the woman was left. He had the option, he could condemn her and cast the first stone, but instead he pardoned her, sending her away ordering her not to sin again. What's the problem?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
At any rate, if you've *heard* about Schoerdinger's Cat (Which it's obvious you have, otherwise you wouldn't have asked about feeding him), wouldn't you at least be curious enough to look for him?

I already have, and I came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist, just as I've come to the conclusion that the Lochness monster doesn't exist. Why? Because there is absolutely no evidence, after countless years, to believe that there is a god or a Lochness monster. How long are you going to look for something before you finally realize it's just not there?

So wouldn't be also arrogant to presume that something so insignificant was not actually *created*?

No. I have no problem with not having a creator. Why do you?

If we were quite as insignificant as you seem to presume, then we should never have existed...

Why does everything have to have a purpose for you? Can't we just be here? You were born with an appendix, weren't you? Have you figured out what that's for yet?

I'm not trying to say that we were created for any purpose...

Yet you insist that we're important enough to have been created?

And that's exactly what will happen...

Does that bother you? I'm at peace with that fact. Everyone dies and becomes part of the Earth again. It's natural. I wasn't referring to annihilation of the species. When you die, you go alone, no matter how many people die with you.

To me, that's what God means; Having the intellect & spirit to make something better of ourselves *before* we wind up like the dinosaurs...

I'm convinced that mental evolution has left some humans behind. Certain groups of people have been somewhat excluded from this evolution. Among the ones that have suffered this fate, are the religious ones. They make up the majority, IMO. I'll be glad to see them fade out, as they have been slowly but surely.

Actually, Catholicism also sprung from the Hebrew religion even older than Rome...And Catholicism is also guilty of "borrowing" ideas & concepts from the older "pagan" religions that came before it & modifying those original ideas to fit within itself--All the better to make easier conversions, I guess...

Out of all religions, none is as old as worshipping of the Sun. If I must relate anything to a "god", that would have to be the Sun. It is our life force.

At any rate, I said that I stay away from *organized* religions for a reason; As the intro to this Topic states, we're asking the question of "Does The Idea Of God Play A Pivotable Role In The Conspiracy?" My answer is, "YES"....

We agree on this.

[Edited on 11-9-2003 by Satyr]

originally bySatyr...
I've come to the conclusion that the Lochness monster doesn't exist. Why? Because there is absolutely no evidence, after countless years, to believe that there is a god or a Lochness monster. How long are you going to look for something before you finally realize it's just not there?

There is quite a bit of evidence that Lochness, as well as God exists. It is, however, all just circumstantial. There are tons of pictures and personal accounts of "Nessie" documented throughout history. There is also an incalculable number of supernatural/spiritual experiences that have been documented but remain inexplicable. These accounts serve as evidence of a Supreme Power or God. None of this evidence PROVES God and Nessie exist, however. There is, also, lots of evidence for evolution, but that it is the origin of all life on Earth has yet to be proven. It can only be shown that evolution occurs within nature.

The arguments for both Creationism and Atheism are based on EVIDENCE only, there is no PROOF for either belief.

Incidentally, there is no PROOF that we, the planet or the Universe really exist other beyond our own perception. EVERYTHING is made up of protons, electrons, nuclei, quarks, and we still continue to discover smaller components There are no black, white, green, red or yellow people. We are all the same, but the various light wave frequencies we all radiate, are translated into different colors through our eyes and brain.

So how can we explain our "consciousness" or the PROVEN connection between different forms of life, i.e., Kirlian Photography telepathy experiments, the 100 Monkey Phenomena, etc. There seems to be an immense amount of support for a plane of existence which transcends our own. Even the "Natural Order of the Cosmos" supports God, within it's very essence, the 1 & 0; everything & nothing; infinity & void. The 1/0 equation is the basis for everything, even according to science. In order to have "nothing" or a "void", you must also have "everything" or "infinity". Thus, we would have to be a piece of infinity within the infinite, in order to exist. This means we all exist as a whole, but are also independent from that whole. If God is infinite then we would have to be a collective of His infiniteness, but we are also separate individuals within His infinity. Just because our human perception is frequently unaware of it's greater whole, doesn't mean it's not there or can't be felt.

This is of course, just my understanding of things from my own perspective. As I said, nothing, including your own beliefs, can be proven infallible.

One final thought, I may not agree with religion as an brain-washing organization, but it is arrogant to say,

"I'm convinced that mental evolution has left some humans behind. Certain groups of people have been somewhat excluded from this evolution. Among the ones that have suffered this fate, are the religious ones. They make up the majority, IMO. I'll be glad to see them fade out, as they have been slowly but surely."

Anybody who discounts everything but their own opinion, without acknowledging it's potential for error, is an unfortunate victim of their own ignorance. They imprison themselves with fear and condemn those who see things differently.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Saying religion is "BS", is BS.
Its religion that has brought us where we are...

...Where we *are* is also BS, if you'd just take a look at human-situation these days...


Many comments here have coincided with what I've been saying in various places throughout the Religion/Spiritualism topic ever since I first started posting here...It's "Organized Religion" that's screwed up everything. They all contain the truth & they're all buried in a quagmire of half-truths & outright lies, inserted by those who hold high positions within the "Organization". To better understand the Divinity, one must look at *all* possible sources that describe that Divinity...Studying the scriptures of only *one* religion is only going to put *glue* to those blinders on your head. Even if you study all of the relevant scriptures, you're still going to be wearing the blinders (ie: limited human perception & conception), but at least you'd be loosening the straps on those blinders a bit...

This is why I consider myself to be "faithful" but subscribe to no particular "religion".

Just in the Christian Scriptures alone, the scholars of the Old & New Testaments indicate that *no one*, regardless of belief or non-belief will miss out on Paradise; Christ sacrificed himself on the Cross for *all* people, everywhere...He did this for all who ever *did* live & all who ever *will* live. Any "Christian" who tries to tell you otherwise is either lying or has been deluded by dogma from the "high-level religious hypocrites" of Organized Religion.

Originally posted by Gazrok

Why exactly do you want to know? If you want to know what a TRUE Christian believes then read the Holy Bible, Muslim read the Koran, etc. Just asking a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. will get you a lot of incorrect answers since many religious people don't really understand their own religion.

Ahh...and now you get to the crux of my arguement and question....

I am fully aware of what the Bible, Koran, etc. state... What I am more interested in, is the interpretation of individual followers. Do they really believe that non-believers are doomed? And, if so, do they believe that this is the act of a kind and loving God?

If one can read the number of clear and plainly spoken passages in the Bible that tell us that Jesus is Lord and non-belief in Him is a sure way to damnation.

If a person does not see this and believe, one can not convince you of it- this is a never ending arguement here. How can I convince you to believe something you have not experienced or have no faith in? It goes back and forth with no conclusions.

Like Garzok said, in the end you will know- and it will be too late then.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
If one can read the number of clear and plainly spoken passages in the Bible that tell us that Jesus is Lord and non-belief in Him is a sure way to damnation.

Actually, is this statement taking into account the fact that there are *how many(?)* different versions of the Bible & that it's literally impossible for any version to be error-free?
How many times has the Bible been retranslated, re-edited & downright *changed* over the centuries? You must also realize that the Bible is based upon the Dead Sea Scrolls, those scrolls were written by a wide variety of *human hands* & in three different languages. You must also be aware that those Scrolls are not complete; Many are damaged due to age, portions being unreadable. We have no way of knowing if all of the Scrolls have even been *found* yet.

Additionally, the mere act of translation is bound to involve error...After all, the ancient Hebrews who wrote the oldest of the Scrolls had to write using literary parable & metaphor to try to explain concepts for which they had no words & they had to try to write in such a way that anyone (of that age) could understand.

For one prime example of error creeping into the Scripture: There was no Hell. The Hebrews wrote of "sheol", which (literally translated) means "grave" or "pit". It wasn't even meant to imply that the soul would wander around anywhere, only that death lead to being buried in a grave or pit. The Hebrews also described sheol as the place to were the dead would rest for a finite period of time (literal translation, "an age") before going to be with God. This included *everyone*, not just believers.

It wasn't until the Greeks got ahold of the scriptures that the "modern" concept of Hell began to form; That it actually became a place of eternal punishment for sin.
Once Organized Religion decided to begin *altering* the scriptures, they didn't fool around with it...The Bible(s) you see today are a fine example of accumulated error & intentional alteration carried out for centuries upon the original scriptures.

[Edited on 4-10-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]

If you don't go to church, I don't believe the Lord will see that as a sin. Heck in Christianity, Jesus criticized the organized religion of the time. I guess my question to people would be, "what is the harm in believing in a God and an afterlife?" What does it hurt? Isn't it far more bleak to think that after this is all over, there is nothing? Nothing at all? Perhaps God isn't entirely the person described in the bible, but you also have to remember, that the author's of the bible were human too . . . divinely inspired, but human nonetheless. Therefore, they were limited by their own capacity to understand the afterlife, and God. So I am sure there is a LOT more to God than can be covered in a bible, or any other similar document.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Q: What do you think happens to those who do not believe as you do, after death? If they are doomed, do you think this is a fair action taken by your deity? If they are not doomed, then why adhere to the tenets of your faith?

In other words, if you are a Christian, do you think all non-Christians are going to Hell? etc. And, if not, then why should they bother going to church, etc.? I'm just curious, as if one group is actually right (not something I'm advocating here, but a "what if"), then that means billions are wrong, so we're talking of the fate of billions here....

The universe is god.

The spark that started it all was a thought or a desire for creation.

We were created with that the souls that exist.

We live many lives and our path either being service to self or others is made over a great deal of time.

If you serve others you return to the light.

If you serve self you return to the dark.

I am not sure if it is correct to label one good or bad, but the existance in light is said to be good, while the existance in the dark is not.

in the end when the universe cycles the major issue is which part constitues the greater of the new creation.

Originally posted by postings
If you don't go to church, I don't believe the Lord will see that as a sin.

Actually that's true. If you go according to the actual scriptures, the *only* actions that God considers to be a sin would be to break any of His Ten Commandments.

Any other such "sin", as defined by the Church itself doesn't qualify...Because it's a "sin" by the *Church's Definition*, not God's.