The Conspiracy of the 'other' Gospel

Lol @ me being an expert.

On the other hand, having read a few English translations of the NT from the Ancient Greek, most can be very misleading if you don't have at least a basic knowledge of the original language.

I wouldn't call them mistranslations as such, but when there is no equivalent word in English, usually another word is substituted which leaves the basic meaning intact, but is more open to interpretation.

Have to say I agree with Queenie on this one. I believe Christ is the only path to salvation, but I also believe that we will all believe in Christ EVENTUALLY. If I'm wrong and condemned for it, so be it - but I have to put my faith in something that makes sense and an all-loving God that allows his children to suffer an eternity in Hell does not make sense to me.

If you don't think the bible is useful--then leave it alone. Because it never will be as long as you approach it with unhealthy skepticism. Unhealthy skepticism is not much difference than blind and illogical faith. Both seek the agenda over the discovery and therefore the words are taken in accordance to the disposition of the heart. If you feel certain you already know more than what can be gained from reading it, then why waste your time therein? Don't expect to make others who value it adopt and share the scorn with which you regard it.

Ya know Annie many don't read it simply because of the fact that some do not need it to establish a relationship with not only GOD but Jesus Christ also. Therefore the above statement made is throwing everyone who does not wish to use the Bible as one's who scorn it into the same pot.

That IS one of the reasons many do shy away. One can easily have a relationship with GOD and Jesus without the writings and teachings of man interfering with such.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by madmanacrosswater]

We are all Gods, and if we believe in Jesus we won't 'perish'. Sounds more like death than hell. I believe in Him in my own unique way, and it is not at all like the churchs' teach that one is supposed to. I don't care, I'll risk it. I cannot accept their words over my own heart. If that means I roast when I croak, so be it. If Jesus is real, I would be quite shocked if my belief was not up to snuff. And even if it were not, would He not forgive my error?

Simon:

I was wondering where the actual disconnect was !

Then by already being familiar with ancient Koine, you are actually almost half way there.

All you have to do now is gain a working knowledge of unpointed paleo-Hebrew and then take an Aramaic class...i.e. to see the process of translation from one to the other at work first hand.

e.g. you will see immediately all the difficulties in translation and tone and subtle shades of meaning from the paleo Hebrew to the ancient koine Greek (of c. 250BC) of the OT and from the slightly later koine Greek of AD 120 into modern English in the NT---especially books like REVELATION which are full of Greek grammatical howlers that are almost untranslatable in the text as it stands...

and should be able to see the problems of bringing these concepts into an exact modern English translation---especially the subtleties of language that people who are not conversant in both languages cannot even hope to see...

Unfortunately for Greek speaking Chrsitians, R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (ho Iesous) spoke Galilean Aramaic and did not speak or write Greek....if he did we'd be having a different discussion....!

Ya know Annie many don't read it simply because of the fact that some do not need it to establish a relationship with not only GOD but Jesus Christ also. Therefore the above statement made is throwing everyone who does not wish to use the Bible as one's who scorn it into the same pot.

That IS one of the reasons many do shy away. One can easily have a relationship with GOD and Jesus without the writings and teachings of man interfering with such.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by madmanacrosswater]

You mean someone like myself? I am a theologian who searches for truth. I have not pored and strained over the bible as Queenie has, of which I give her credit where credit is due... she is proficient with scripture, and wise of the malefeacence of misinterpretation.

From my own spiritual seeking, I find that Queenie's interpretation of scripture fits cleany with many of Christ's teachings, and help to fill in some of the holes which most "Christians" tend to gloss over. She has answered questions asked of her to the best of her ability, and better yet, she has used scripture to do it. Very few people conduct arguments in as efficacious a manner.

I came to a very similar understanding of Christianity through my own personal experiences, inner dwelling and reflection, as well as brief interludes with religious texts of various types.

But then, I am also abnormal in the sense that I delight in religious conversations. I am fascinated with the milieu.

That being said, I think that the posts I read of Queenie's tend to underscore and illuminate other passages I am more than passingly familiar with. To her credit, I think perhaps it *IS* necessary if one is to walk in the footsteps of Christ to mull over the scriptural meanings, as WELL as the origins of the scriptures.

If you are a person whose relationship with Christ is more what your Pastor has informed you Christ means, more is the pity. Not because your Pastor sucks, but because spiritual answers must be discovered on ones own for them to have the needed impact. After all, the truth your Pastor heard might not be the truth you need to hear.

But then I am starting to dip my toe into a lake of complexity...

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Ya know Annie many don't read it simply because of the fact that some do not need it to establish a relationship with not only GOD but Jesus Christ also.

This I do realize--my intensive study of the scriptures has only been my way for the last few years. All the years prior to that I was establishing my own relationship with God--through my heart and mind. It might seem odd, but only after I passed through certain events in my life was I compelled to pick a bible up again (after having put it aside shortly after high school graduation--I had the surface stuff down about as well as can be expected for a person just beginning the real experience of life). In those years I observed everything about people and life that I possibly could (being an RN was a valuable experience in many ways) and I studied everything I could get my hands on--all areas of science, sacred texts, other religions, society, and the spiritual experiences that others have written about.

Because of the way my path has unfolded, I know that my studying of the bible is not for my own furtherance with God--I didn't need it in order to fortify anything on a personal level, and I had already come to understand, albeit in a less organized, more instinctive way, the things that now I can define much more clearly, and support, by what I read.

Therefore the above statement made is throwing everyone who does not wish to use the Bible as one's who scorn it into the same pot.

Not at all. There is a big difference between those who scorn and those who just don't concern themselves with it. I am by no means lumping two 'categories' into one--I just didn't address the middle category because there is no need.

In any discussion, such as on a forum like this, where the bible is the topic for review--the people participating all have an issue with the bible on various levels; whether it be negative or positive, no one talks about the bible who really doesn't have a concern with it.

That IS one of the reasons many do shy away.

If one doesn't feel in need of something, they don't have to 'shy away' from it. Shying away denotes some kind of hesitation, and I have observed, over my lifetime, a tragic amount of damage done toward those who tread somewhat less boldly than someone such as I. I have never had any use for religion--but I never let that taint my view of the bible. Most, however, aren't that fortunate--for various reasons they are affected profoundly by the falseness of religious indoctrination. Yet they still seek and desire to know God. We all have a portion of insecurity deep within that makes us want to verify what we intuit within ourselves. When that is exacerbated by the conditioning that results from religious ideation, especially that of mainstream christianity, a fragile balance arises that can easily be tipped in either direction--either toward consolation and understanding or toward bitterness and a hardened heart.

As you say, not everyone feels they need the bible--but those that do, yet aren't quite sure how to approach it or to the point of being able to discern the subtleties of spiritual truth vs. material delusion--those need just a little bit of edification toward forging ahead on their own. Whatever is built that is destined to stand can only be built upon the truth.

That's why I am so direct and unapologetic for my words and attitude. I regard these things with utter seriousness because I know that the way to peace and freedom is through love and truth.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

All you have to do now is gain a working knowledge of unpointed paleo-Hebrew and then take an Aramaic class...i.e. to see the process of translation from one to the other at work first hand.

NEOAMADEUS--
you still have not enlightened us in regard as to your credentials in the field of linguitics...

That was attempted humour, just so you know. It does have a grain of truth to it though. If one is interested enough in a subject, then they can become as knowledgeable as anyone on it, without a single credential. That is my view, anyway, and furthermore, I would add that they can often become more knowledgeable than the average person who got their credentials in that area. I honestly believe this, and have seen many examples of 'lay' people who knew quite a bit more about said subject than the experts present did. What training did Leonardo Da Vinci complete in the areas of painting and sculpture? Did he have credentials?
And did Mother Teresa take all the Sociology courses required to get a degree in Social Science? Hmmmmmmmmm? That is just my opinion on 'credentials', and their limitations, and I am no expert.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Son of the lost maji
Somebody needs to read their bible more closely...

Interestingly, not all who call themselves Christian believe the Bible is inerrant, or even approximately inerrant. Some see it as -- gasp -- a collection of ancient books for spiritual guidance, but not for legalism.

The real source of authority for such people is societal values, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Hi Queenie:

Did you mean "linguistics"?

Perhaps you type too fast like I do when I write out words like "epistimelogically incoherent..." too fast !

Credentials? I took my degrees in Theology under C.K. Barrett in England.

Why do you ask?

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Hi Queenie:

Did you mean "linguistics"?

I did! LOL

Perhaps you type too fast like I do when I write out words like "epistimelogically incoherent..." too fast !

Yes, I do. I also get so tired of typing! You got me on that, one, for sure!

Credentials? I took my degrees in Theology under C.K. Barrett in England.

Why do you ask?

Just curious, is all. When you said 'layman' then I knew you must not be one, so I wondered how so.

Thank you for answering!

Thank you for responses. One's spiritual development, of course, comes only from within. The first true step is the knowing that there truly is a GOD and he/she/it runs through each and everything within this universe, and the universes mortal man is unable to see.

Funny, watched "Field of Dreams" last nite. It was the first time I have seen it since my awakening a couple of years ago. One begins to comprehend much more when a true understanding of our spirtuality comes about. It is a very interesting movie taken from a book. I would like to meet the author.

Hi Blackguard:

Not to put too fine a point on it but....Leonardo did spend 12 years as an apprentice in Verocchio's studio in Firenze (as his live in...um...well, you know), and so was therefore hardly unschooled in the technical aspects of his Art.

In terms of understanding the Greek and Roman writers (e.g. his evident sketchy knowledge of Latin and Greek which he always complained about), he often mentioned that he was "unschooled in the Classics" and that he was "taught most of his Art by studying Nature's first prinicples especially Mathematics..." we can say that he put far more emphasis on "practical application" than "empty theory" --but he certainly had a theoretical cast of mind when he wrote his Treatises on various subjects e.g. On Music (mostly lost) and On Painting (whose notes were never fully organized at the time of his death) and had very definite opinions about how for example a Painter should approach his Art...even down to building a sun-lit studio to make the best use of available light (before the invention of lightbulbs of course!)

But to say that Leonardo was completely unschooled would be something of an oversimplification of the facts...

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Funny, watched "Field of Dreams" last nite. It was the first time I have seen it since my awakening a couple of years ago. One begins to comprehend much more when a true understanding of our spirtuality comes about.

Yes, isn't it amazing how everything in the world lands on your doorstep when you open the right door?

Or maybe it's more a matter of actually just seeing what lies beyond, I mean really seeing--with the eye that is in the mind.

[color=#993399]I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee. Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
--Psalms 32:8-10 KJV

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Funny, watched "Field of Dreams" last nite. It was the first time I have seen it since my awakening a couple of years ago. One begins to comprehend much more when a true understanding of our spirtuality comes about.

Yes, isn't it amazing how everything in the world lands on your doorstep when you open the right door?

Or maybe it's more a matter of actually just seeing what lies beyond, I mean really seeing--with the eye that is in the mind.


[color=#993399]I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee. Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
--Psalms 32:8-10 KJV

Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical. Do not build a life based on that or you will be deceived.

[edit on 6-10-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 6-10-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 6-10-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical. Do not build a life based on that or you will be deceived.

What are you talking about? !?

Originally posted by dbrandt
Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical.

Huh? What about the dead who were raised and walked around Jarusalem when Jesus was raised? What about Lazarus? What about the dead guy who came back to life after his body touched the bones of Elisha?

Originally posted by dbrandt
Do not build a life based on that or you will be deceived.

That much we can agree on.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by dbrandt
Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical.

Huh? What about the dead who were raised and walked around Jarusalem when Jesus was raised? What about Lazarus? What about the dead guy who came back to life after his body touched the bones of Elisha?

Goo question. I need to research the answer.

Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical. Do not build a life based on that or you will be deceived.

Then you are saying that this earth is not part of heaven? It surely is for it is a part of GOD's kingdom which is all.

Do you not ever "feel" what is around you? Have you not learned the feeling of get the heck out of there, or the feeling that all is right? Animals understand this feeling. Man should also. I do. Where exactly does one think the spirit goes when our physical existence ends?

The teachings in the Bible about this type of thing is restricted to the ability of 1st century man and his limited understanding. Much like man this day and age is limited also in this regard.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Dead people returning to earth is not Biblical. Do not build a life based on that or you will be deceived.

mmkay...

Isn't that like the whole premise of the main event in the bible? Jesus died, rose again in the ultimate triumph of spirit over flesh, and then ascended to the Father, after which He then returned for a short period before departing to take His place at the right hand of the Throne?

He was dead. He did return to Earth. It is in the bible. I have placed complete and utter confidence in the fact of the resurrection.

Are you saying this is not a good idea?

You certainly keep me guessing, that's for sure!

[edit on 10/10/2005 by queenannie38]