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F-22 /thoughts and opinion about this article.

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posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 01:20 PM

Force multipliers like awacs allowed the allies to chose where and when to fight. While the enemies were mostly ignorant about the locations of enemies.

Sucks to them, huh?

No aircraft is perfect, but they are getting closer with the F-22. ONe question, does anyone know who makes the paint that is applied that gives it the stealth capabilities. Many specific parts of the plane (leading edges, etc) are sprayed differently, and the paint is a main part of that.

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 02:18 PM

Originally posted by grunt2
Zaphod58, man thats the whole point, you say that, thanks!!!
, btw the indians also didnt use awacs

[edit on 31-8-2005 by grunt2]


The Indians used simulated awacs. And as it has been discussed a million times, the F-15s didn't have their top radar, had the range of thier missles cut in half, had half to a third the number of aircraft, etc etc etc. Cope India was a joke and proves nothing,

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 06:07 PM

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Cope India was a joke and proves nothing,

It's curious because it looks obvious that Cope India is a marketing campaign from the US to make the F22 look necessary, while it's a lot of money spent for nothing... I mean, you make a lot of efforts to make the F22 the best thing in the world, but at the same time you make similar efforts hyping the F15 to make F22 seem unnecessary... sorry, I don't understand

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 06:34 PM
Nobody is hyping the F-15 to make it seem like the F-22 is unecessary. We're hyping the F-15 as one of the best fighters built, and still a pretty darned good platform that is getting old.

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 07:00 PM
Yes, while the F-15 currently is one of the best fighters in the world, the USAF wants a fighter for future threats that will most likely be superior to the F-15 hence the need for the Raptor.

[edit on 1-9-2005 by WestPoint23]

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:09 PM
what a crap!!!! simulated AWACS?????, hahahaha, dont make me laught....

pehaps the su330s were used as "AWACS", but that only say good things about the radar and the angle aperture

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:14 PM
The POINT being raised is that the F-15s were artificially handicapped during the exercise. They had no AWACS, and they had half ranged missiles. So what did you think was going to happen? Of COURSE they got blown out of the sky.

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:23 PM
that is crap, again in these excercises you work with "virtual" kills, that is basicaly the radar performance, now i know that you will say that the radar was undergraded, ahhhhhhh
, man just accept the reallity.....

also i never had hear or read about the "undergraded" missiles, but in these excercises all use simulated missiles,the only argument was that the f15s were outnumbered, but again that is because india used some planes as attackers, and again is about the radars, the flankers detected and shooted first.

[edit on 1-9-2005 by grunt2]

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:30 PM
grunt I’m glad you like reality, but reality is that the F-15's did not have the AESA radar. The Indian fighters were able to engage the F-15’s at their full range but the F-15’s had to get in close because their missile range was cut in half. In a real war the US would not be handicapped in that way.

Also I’m getting really tired of explaining the India Cope exercise, if you don't get it by now, then you never will.

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:49 PM
Nevertheless the IAF in sharp contrast had the benefit of operating the two-seater Sukhoi-30MK/K “four plus-plus-generation” fighters that was bound to have some benefit of an air-battle-management platform if not in the same league as the newest Sukhoi-30MKI. Not only the rear-seat occupant WSO (Weapon System Officer), could remain focused on planning the air-battle, but he generally could single-handedly take the vital responsibility of launching the deadly BVR missiles after making judicious IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) decisions.

Media sources stated that those who have read draft copies of the Cope India 2004 report say the IAF Sukhoi-30MKs and USAF F-15 pilots were detecting each other at the same time with their radars, but the Indian pilots were getting off the simulated first shot with their R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) and often winning the long-range BVR engagements. It should be noted that Sukhoi-30s inherently have a very respectable internal fuel capacity to enable them to make generous use of afterburners and establish kinematics advantage. Similar advantage is enjoyed by the Russian R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) series of BVR AAMs with powerful motors, especially the 130 kilometres extended-ranged models.

Simulated combat included “offensive counter air”, where a small number of F-15's would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counter air missions, the F-15's would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters. The Four F-15's were outnumbered, usually flying against ten or twelve of the same model Indian fighters.

The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: None of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs was equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.

But I'm sure the all knowing Grunt will find some OTHER reason, minus sources of course, why this is crap. Oh wait, I'm sure that since these came from the military they're lying to make the F-22 look better.

[edit on 1-9-2005 by Zaphod58]

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:17 PM

Originally posted by esdad71
ONe question, does anyone know who makes the paint that is applied that gives it the stealth capabilities.

I have not found that answer on the internet yet, esdad71, but maybe this might help?
United States Patent: Microwave absorbers

An interesting read, nonetheless, as was this:

The F-22's radar signature is estimated at 1000 times smaller than the F-15s.


[edit on 1-9-2005 by Seekerof]

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:21 PM
the articule is wrong, the shoot range was arround 20 miles, because is the shoot practical range for both missiles ,launching a misille at 30-60 miles isnt practical, is the max range, you never will hit at such range, the same restriction were for the su30s, also the americans used simulated amraams, the 130km AA10 is a special version, not the simulated used in cope india

actually the better performance of the flankers was not by the internal fuel,
was because it have a better engine, that can be used to output great power in AB without wasting fuel as the f100-110, and better aerodynamics, as an example, the f15 generaly take off with ABs, the flanker dont need ABs

also at that time the indians didnt have MICAs

the antonov wasnt an awacs, it wasnt operating radars, it was used as an awacs "target"

remember that they won in almost 90% of the excersices, with su30s and migs21s, even not the mki version, and they preffered soviet tactics than western ones

and again here the saint grail is the AESA, like if that will save you against the better range detection of the su27 or the huge f15rcs

i didnt kew all the details, i accept that, but that is because my knowledge area is more scientific-technologic than to be an "aviation fan"

[edit on 2-9-2005 by grunt2]

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:41 PM
What part of the article stating that the US DID NOT use AMRAAMs didn't you understand? The Rules of Engagement for the exercise stated that the US DID NOT HAVE AMRAAMs. They had the AIM-9X for their long range missiles. How could they shoot simulated AMRAAMs when per the exercise agreement they didn't have them.

AESA isn't the holy grail, however it clearly states that the F-15s without it, and the SU-30s with their advanced radar detected each other AT THE SAME TIME, however the Indians usually got their shots off faster. With the new AMRAAMs you are NOT going to miss out past 20 miles. What would be the point of developing long range missiles if you're only going to wait until you're in short range to bother being able to use them?

posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:55 PM
all used amraams and aa10s, but not in active mode, thats the reason why all the missiles were limited to 20 milles, using the efective range of the tracking radar, avoiding inertial missile phase flight

posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 12:44 AM
well, i have heard from some friends about the true number vs number of the planes about the excercises in cope india, i trusted very good on them, but again i dont trust very good in which is said by the media, because there are missinterpretations always, i tried to search in other forums and i found something very interesting

""""""""Also ratio is not 12vs4. Indians flew a strike package. four to six strike aircraft with an 'escort' of another four to six. In reality it was an equal pile up on both sides"""""""""

this is the link

i think that we must investigate a little more about it

[edit on 2-9-2005 by grunt2]

posted on Sep, 2 2005 @ 01:12 AM
hey!!! its seems that this already have discussed in this forum!!!!

""""""The F-15s flew in groups of 4 against packages of 12 Indian Air Force aircraft consisting of a mix of Mirage 2000, Su-30, Mig-21, and Mig-27 aircraft""""""""

also i think that the jaguars were included

i think that is from

btw mirage 2000 were used almost as bombers, other planes participated like the mig23, and actually the planes as AA rolewhere thedu30 and mig21

anyway it still say some crapy comments, since what i know there werent MICAs or indian active radar missiles all were limited to pasive and limited to 20 miles

""""target illuminated when attacking and 18 naut. mi. when defending, as were all the missiles in the exercise.""""""

sorry it seems that my paste-text funtion is my faces....and actually everything in my editor-post!!!!!

[edit on 2-9-2005 by grunt2]

posted on Sep, 3 2005 @ 03:06 PM


MARIETTA, Ga. , August 29, 2005 -- The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F/A-22 Raptor team marked another milestone today toward operational fielding of the F/A-22 when the U.S. Air Force officially began Follow-On Test and Evaluation (FOT&E) at Nellis Air Force Base (AFB) in Nevada.

For the next several weeks, seven Raptors will fly in a series of event-based operational battlespace scenarios. This phase of testing will further demonstrate the overwhelmingly effective performance of the aircraft, and its suitability and readiness for Initial Operational Capability later this year.

“We at Lockheed Martin, along with our partners Boeing and Pratt & Whitney, and thousands of men and women at nearly 1,000 subcontractors in 42 states, who build the F/A-22 Raptor, are honored to be part of this proud moment for the team and for the U.S. Air Force. FOT&E will build on the success achieved in Initial Operational Test and Evaluation late last year in which the Raptor was declared ‘overwhelmingly effective,’ an unparalleled score for a new weapons system. The contractor team is committed to supporting the Air Force during FOT&E as it continues to expand the Raptor’s capability and improved suitability,” said Larry Lawson, executive vice president and general manager, F/A-22 program for Lockheed Martin.

Man I'd sure hate to be a critic of the Raptor.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by NWguy83]

posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 07:53 AM
I still say they still shoulda used the YF23......and it looked nice

posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 01:59 PM

I still say they still shoulda used the YF23......and it looked nice

DW for the last time, the Widow was as ugly as they get!

posted on Sep, 5 2005 @ 03:06 PM

Originally posted by WestPoint23

I still say they still shoulda used the YF23......and it looked nice

DW for the last time, the Widow was as ugly as they get!

You're crazy man! The BWII is sexy!

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