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F-22 /thoughts and opinion about this article.

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posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 03:36 AM
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Exercises... well, good american guys fighting good american guys... and that destroys my argument? If the exercieses involved any other country, maybe, but the pilots shot down by the raptors are also paid by the same people who pay the pilots in the raptors, so they also want the raptor to win... of course they will say "I did all that I could but he defeated me" but that hasn't to be true. Just looking at the importance you give them: those exercises are a very good marketing campaign, and they need a lot of marketing to make people believe the F22 is worth it's cost... just like the B2... very expensive, and there are few... maybe it's amazing, but how many B 52 can you buy in place of it? and how many B52 are shot down to make really necessary an "invisible" B2? The same applies to the raptor... yes it's better, but not so much as you want to believe, it has costed you lots of billion dollars and you will have a few. But, well,maybe it has costed a lot of money to the american people, but politicians, contractors, and all that people will be happy because all of them has make a lot of money... there is where the money has gone, not to make the plane, but to pay people to say it's worth every dollar spent in it... and for what I see, it worked... just look at how much you everybody love the plane... and there is no need for such plane at that cost, that money would have been much better invested in any other thing, like hospitals, schools or even other military project... not in buying four or six planes...




posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 03:40 AM
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Oh please, the B-2 wasn't even proposed until the late 70s early 80s. How many B-52s have been shot down? Not very many. I think they lost 18-20 in Vietnam. That's a drop in the bucket of the number built.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Yeah they will mention all victories of the F22 over the F15 but will they mention if vice versa happens? I think not. The us wants to make its millitairy look better than it is as an detterrent i think. Not a real problem but i think making the enemy underestimate you is better. Unless you want to deterr like the US does.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by tomcat ha
Yeah they will mention all victories of the F22 over the F15 but will they mention if vice versa happens? I think not.

Think.
Think.
The US Air Force nor the US government cannot mention F-15 victories over the F-22 because, quite frankly, there have been none to mention, being that the F-15, in numbers cited up to 5 against one F-22, has not bested/defeated the F-22 [it lasted all of about 3-5 minutes].
No secret there and seriously nothing to hide.
In fact, contrary to what you assert, if the F-15 in any numbers bested/defeated the F-22, that would be big headline type news, and you can take that to the bank. That type news would be all over the aircraft industry news boards as quick as you can spit.






seekerof

[edit on 31-8-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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you got that right seekerof, the "left" media would eat that up, headlines would say "Bush spends Billions on new fighter...and it lost to the old one". Since the (left) media always blames everything on Bush.
(god that gets old)

anyway...I dont think the USAF over hypes their planes, they talk high of them when the budget roles around, but they dont over hype them...a lot of specs are kept classified and/or under estimated.

and yes, the US does like Peace through Deterrence.




posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:07 PM
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well, the f22 is muuuch better than the f15, specially in BVR, it have better engines, good speed/heigh performance etc..., what i find a exaggeration are the stealth features, actually the f15 is one of the worst BVR plataform in the modern aviation, but obviously the radar is excellent, but also have their shortcomings -like only one radar band-

is like the indo-american excercises, the f15s were detected by the flankers before the 15s knew that the sukhois were there, also they shoot first, is obvious the flanker have a better heigh-speed performance and yes a better radar -even better than AESA in some aspects-, even against mig21s were outmatched in bvr -obviously with a radar link, because the fishbeb radar is pathetic compared with the f15-

btw there is a missinterpretation about that excercise, saying that the f15 were outnumbered, but that was because the indians were playing with fighters as bombers -mig27-mirage200, etc-

is interesting that both planes are from Boeing, so there is a higher degree for fix the media and public opinion

but also these excersices are sometimes confused, sometimes are only shoot excercises, in which the others planes only are targets, that hepls to measure the radar, the shoot time, the vectorial factor, etc.., a true combat excercise isnt still made, is too early to do that

but also that always happens, when a new plane go in service, all people say "is the best", "no one can match it", "will be the most feared", so they put that fixed excersice and these famous computer simulations
, is just marketing

the f16 famous unstable design, was outmatched only by aerodynamics by the su27-mig29, the f18 all said that will be great, only 7.5g limit, the f15 later their engines were changed by low bypass versions, even these dont work well, because are based in HBP turbofan and their aerodynamics were outmatched easely, the 15a was a crap , so they changed that very quickly with 15cs, the f14,underpowerd from the start , and their radar -sooo famous- only had a pathetic angle aperture, the f18s radar with lower range is more practical

im not saying that the USAF have bad planes, but almost always all the new machines are very overated

[edit on 31-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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I wouldn't say the F-22 is over rated as such, it is just the hype has made people to beleive it is something it is not. Plus the lack of testing, it should have more. So many problems... its just like this stupid "missile defence sheild". It just isn't ready yet.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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im not saying that the USAF have bad planes, but almost always all the new machines are very overated


Of course they do, tell me, how many USAF planes have been shot down since Vietnam by other Fighter jets? Oh, don't let me mention the F-15’s 100+ to 0 combat record, no, no, very bad planes indeed.


I wouldn't say the F-22 is over rated as such, it is just the hype has made people to beleive it is something it is not. Plus the lack of testing, it should have more.


Of course, I mean even if the raptor had the longest research and testing period of any modern fighter, it still needs more right?



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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"Of course they do, tell me, how many USAF planes have been shot down since Vietnam by other Fighter jets? Oh, don't let me mention the F-15’s 100+ to 0 combat record, no, no, very bad planes indeed."

come on, with BVR, numeric advantage -true number planes on the air-, against 3th world countries, with planes mostly outdated and under equiped, come on


when they face su30 with BVR Bars and AA10, the thing was different

remember that also depends on the pilot, like in the korean war

so you feel soooooo great and powerful and PATRIOTIC hitting 3-world countries, what a pathetic


[edit on 31-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Hitting SU-30s without their AESA radars, and with their AMRAAMS degraded to about half range. Because THAT is certainly a real world situation.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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grunt2
is interesting that both planes are from Boeing

F-15.....and...

The 22 is Lockheed, not Boeing.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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AESA, AESA, AESA, fancy name, isnt the great stuff man, is advanced, yes, but again overating the things
, i preffer a simple radar with 2 bands than AESA.

well actually in these excersices dont matter if you have your AMRAAMS upgrated or not, is about virtual hits, target illumination and over all planes heigh, speed, energy vector and radar performance, also is tipical in some guys to say that standar machines and weapons are the "degrated version"

Murcielgo, try to do some google, yes??


[edit on 31-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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How many battles has the USAF fought since Vietnam WITHOUT AWACS? None. They had no AWACS support in Cope India, which isn't very realistic either.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:44 PM
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Zaphod58, man thats the whole point, you say that, thanks!!!
, btw the indians also didnt use awacs


I guess that for some guys "realistic scenario" is to fight against 3-world countries with advantages
......ohhhh what a realistic....


[edit on 31-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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grunt2
Murcielgo, try to do some google, yes??

my bad.




posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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dont worry.......be happy



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by grunt2
I guess that for some guys "realistic scenario" is to fight against 3-world countries with advantages
......ohhhh what a realistic....



In any realistic air-to-air combat setting, BVR with data link via AWACS or satellite will allow for very little close-in air-to-air combat engagements, grunt2. You know this and I know this. They will be BVR.

As such, it has been cited and documented that the F/A-22 does not have to turn on radar or IR or anything that will cause its detection, and can track, target, gain solution, and fire via datalink targeting, who will win the vast majority of those BVR engagements, grunt2?


A secure "Intra-Flight Datalink (IFDL)" system to allow cooperation between F/A-22s; other NATO fighter and attack aircraft; and an Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS)" aircraft. It can also download data from reconnaissance platforms. The datalink system provides such capabilities as allowing one F/A-22 to attack a target using the radar system of another F/A-22. The F/A-22 also has a "Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS)" datalink capability; it is unclear if this is associated with the IFDL or if it is a separate datalink system.

Raptor
F/A-22 + datalink





seekerof

[edit on 1-9-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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The main reasons why mig29's and such easily got destroyed in recent wars like kosovo is the force multipliers, pilot training and they were outnumbered. It never really was a plane vs plane fight.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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And a plane versus plane in BVR would have been any different, tomcat ha?
Highly doubtful.






seekerof



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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Force multipliers like awacs allowed the allies to chose where and when to fight. While the enemies were mostly ignorant about the locations of enemies.




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