It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

F-22 /thoughts and opinion about this article.

page: 1
0
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:
NR

posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 10:36 AM
link   
The Madness of the F-22 Fighter

Tiffany's on wings. That's how one senate aide refers to the Pentagon and its contractor's latest dream weapon: the F-22. "It's showy, unimaginably expensive, fragile and utterly useless", the aide tells us. "But there's no stopping it."

The F-22, known to its press agents as the "Raptor", has been on the drawing board since 1981, at which time the Air Force announced that it wanted a generation of new tactical fighter planes to replace the F-15. In 1986, Lockheed was picked to lead the development of this plane, then known as the Advanced Tactical Fighter.

Extremely long cut/paste removed, link to site taken from added:

www.counterpunch.org...

[edit on 29-8-2005 by NR]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by NR]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by NR]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by NR]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by NR]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by Thomas Crowne]



NR

posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 10:44 AM
link   
i think this prooves it all.




"The F-22 is not going to be a fighter-versus-fighter airplane," says Riccioni. "And if you want that capability, you can get it if you don't design for stealth. And if you don't design for stealth, you can make it affordable. And if it's affordable, you can get the numbers you want." Riccioni's right, of course, except for the fact that the Air Force doesn't even need a new fleet of planes because there's no existing fighter threat, hasn't been one since the Korean War, and there's none in the foreseeable future.




posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 11:29 AM
link   
Wow....where to start...

The current cost of and F-15 runs about $50 million. No one ever expected the raptor for less than $100 million per copy.

John Murtha is my Rep. He is a classic pork barrel democrat that worries more about building roads in the middle of nowhere with his name on it than learning about a weapons system. I'd take his word as nothing more than heresay.

The F-22 crash mention was actually a YF-22 crash in 1992. An F-22 Did crash on December 20, 2004, and was computer control related. There isn't a fighter plane in the air today that can fly without computer control.

The f-22 is an air supremacy aircraft, not an interdiction aircraft. As long as the other guy dosn't see you, it doesn't matter too much.

The F-22 is smaller, shorter, and weighs less than the Su-37.

The fighter mafia helped a lot in the development of the A-10, F-14, and F-16, but, they are really just a loose knit group of people with differing opinions. The Late Col. Boyd is probably rolling his grave becasue of Gen Riccioni's comments.

With respect to computer avionics, I think the F-16 uses a 16 mhz processor. It is unfair to compare desktop processor to military use processor. What do you want? Windows XP on and F-22!?!? Talk about a crash....

Basically, we need a need a new fighter to maintain the Air Ddominance edge. We've seen over the few years that other aviation system are on a par or exceed F-15 Dominance(PLA, India, Russia). It seems out only real advantage is flight personel. The Su-37 you mentioned is a perfect example of the need for a new aircraft system. It's one thing to complain about the F-22, but you do not pose an alternate, and existing aircraft share similar flaws to your lengthy F-22 argument.

If we cancel the F-22, what do you propose we replace it with? The F-35?



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 11:36 AM
link   
You talk about how the F-22 isnt in production which it is or was for some time because i know the USAF has recieved F-22's. And russia also isn't in an economical situation to produce SU-37's in significant quantities. Im also iffy about this radar you talk about, one because i have seen alopt on the website russian projects that are just ideas or just on the drawing board but never come to fruition. And russia especially during the times of the USSr hjad a habit of exagerating and lying about things they had. And it would cost billions to develope and produce such an advanced radar, whihc is money russia doesnt have. And your comment about the F-22 being a bad plane to fly is wrong, test pilots say its a great plane, plus its stealth abilities and high manueveribility.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 11:45 AM
link   
maybe something based in the 35, maybe with lower aspect wing, how could it look???, anyway the compromises are there, you cant cancell the f22, there is too much money involved and maybe the live of 1-2 corporations, the risk is tooo high

[edit on 29-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 11:50 AM
link   
The Raptor is a tough aircraft, like all USAF planes are designed to be. It has also surpassed all expectations, which by the way were pretty high. And the less planes you buy, the more money each one becomes. The Raptor isn't designed to counter any current threats, but rather threats in 2020-2030.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:13 PM
link   
That report is 99.9% total crap, I would be here all day correcting all the BS in it but I don’t have the luxury of time or patience. Knowledgeable members can see right through it anyway.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:14 PM
link   
Most of your info is already outdated.

1. the price is now down to 100 mil. $ per piece (flyaway). In fact it may become more cost effective than F-35, because F-35 is still in production and noone knows how much it will cost.

2. The comment on stealth is old. Indeed the early tests showed that F-22 stealth was not that good as expected. That was the reason for another changes and THAT IS REASON WHY THE PLANE WAS LATE AND WITH HIGHER costs.

3. Air Force already has much more than 10 of this relicts.

4. The comments an raptor VS Sukhoi maneuvrability are completely untrue. That the Raptor is not manuvrable is myth. In fact it is most maneuvrable aircraft currently produced (yes serial production has already began) The Raptor has BETTER sutained turn rate (60 degrees compared to 30-33 by Su-27 an Su-30 and 41 Su-37 or modified Su-30 with TWC). I also don't know from WHERE THE HELL you have the info about acceleration. F- 22 has best acceleration of all fighters - it is main feature of it's very low bypass engines.

5. about which modern Sukhoi fighters are you talking about? All of them are obsolete when compared to F-22 (DERA test showed 10:1 ratio in BVR combat and that with old AMRAAM). Berkut and Su-37 are not in production and each of them would cost more than 45 mil. $ (at least) - compare it to 10:1 ratio and 100 mil. $ per F-22. The only one potential adversary is Pak-Fa and today not even the first prototype or model of Pak-Fa was produced.
To the Mig-1.42 lovers - it was NOT stealth aircraft. Just look at it's shape. It was simply supercruising interceptor/heavy fighter with good radar and small RCS like eurofighter. That was the reason why it was not produced.

6. Stealth - according to my info the best todays russian airborne radars (Awacs) are able to detect F-22 only 20km away. They would be dead already.
Cell phone technology doesn't work - it was just annoucement and posibility, the practical implementation would be extremely diffcult mainly data processing and collection.


The second method comes from my own knowledge. (
Blah ). One radar send signals to a modified radio (reciever) constantly. This is similar to how an AM radio works. You bounce the signal off the ionization layer of the atmosphere to reach the other radar at the receiving point. And then there are two other recievers (not radars) that are placed at 180% to each other. All three units are placed on a circular rim.

Too bad that this metod don't work with the radar waves used to detect aircrafts. Only those can be deflected by ionosphere, but those are not especially suited for detection of moving object.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:24 PM
link   
The Russian millitairy budget is getting up again. I heared it isnt too far off from the level in the cold war but everything was cheaper then. I think Russia has enough money to at least buy a decent number of modern aircraft.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:26 PM
link   
forget it, is already said.

i didnt read all the post, is huge, anyway, very interesting NR

the 100 million fly-away cost is a cosmetic cost, that is explained already

the f22 isnt soooo stealth as some guys thing -like that 20km AWACS range detection crap- , it depend on the angle and radar frecuency but again the ignorance about electromagnetics is clear, RAM works good against very high frecuency, the 22s dont have a stealth shape -yes it have some concepts-, but some guys love to say that the raptor is stelath in IR, radar, noise, visual, but they even dont understand the basics concepts of the technology


[edit on 29-8-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:33 PM
link   
All I want is the links to the info, Please.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 12:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by WestPoint23
That report is 99.9% total crap, I would be here all day correcting all the BS in it but I don’t have the luxury of time or patience. Knowledgeable members can see right through it anyway.


Actually i would like to see YOU debunk it with your *extensive* knowledge, and knowledge gained from being a serving officer.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 01:21 PM
link   
I think that this would be a very interesting WVR battle. The Su-37 is a larger airframe ( 10ft. longer) but the weight is very similar. Empty I think the Su-37 weighs 565lbs more. The thrust is only 4,500lbs lighter in the Su-37 and they both have thrust Vectoring. They both pull 9g’s. I would say that this sounds pretty evenly matched. Start them side by side and let them get it on.


www2.acc.af.mil...

www.globalsecurity.org...



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 01:34 PM
link   
There was recently a show on discovery that took the Raptor from conception in the 50's with other types of aircraft, to the YF -22 and 23, and the changes that have been made to the F-22 since Lockheed was awarded the contract.

In one interview, there is a pilot who flew a F-22 against more than half a dozen I beleive they were F-15's. ( May have been f-14's) in a training exercise. THe Raptor pilot 'killed' them all without them even knowing he was there. In the show there was a statement from a aviator, who was pretty pissed because they had no idea where the shots came from.

the F-22 as designed with Stealth in mind, and can take out any modern aicraft from miles away.

THey are in service, just google F-22. THey are stationed I beleive in North Florida,.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 01:47 PM
link   


There was recently a show on discovery that took the Raptor from conception in the 50's with other types of aircraft, to the YF -22 and 23, and the changes that have been made to the F-22 since Lockheed was awarded the contract.


I saw that show also. It was very interesting. You could also tell how badly they were kissing up to the plane. The way they made it sound is that there is not a single flaw in the plane. Sounds to good to be true to me.

It was one F-22 against eight F-15's. One of the F-15 pilots said he thought he had a visual and then lost him. The next thing he knew the raptor had buzzed his canopy. But what happens when the raptor fights another stealth plane. It will go to WVR. It should make for an Interesting case



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 01:47 PM
link   

Actually i would like to see YOU debunk it with your *extensive* knowledge, and knowledge gained from being a serving officer.


First of all Air Force is not my area of expertise and it does not take extensive knowledge to see that that repot is full of it. Some untrue "facts" are obvious some are not, you I’ m sure know what I’m talking about if not then you should do some reading on the Raptor.


But what happens when the raptor fights another stealth plane.


Such as?

[edit on 29-8-2005 by WestPoint23]



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 02:13 PM
link   


Such as?


I thought the Su-47 is supposed to be stealthy and then I saw a thread somewhere around here earlier about the new russian PAK-FA that is supposed to be just like the raptor.

My biggest problem F-22 is how much the Air Force is talking them up. And they have done this in the Past with the F-111. The navy has done it with the F-14. They will push it through and make the plane look better than it really is so their ideas don't look stupid. take away what the brass says about the plane and just take it's specs i see it having a problem in a WVR dogfight against an F-16 or any other smaller opponent. Since all dogfights are fought BVR the plane will probably serve its purpose well.

We all can read as much as we want on the F-22 but unless one of has flown in it we won't know the true capabilities or especially the incapabilty's for a very long time. If ever.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 02:26 PM
link   

I thought the Su-47 is supposed to be stealthy and then I saw a thread somewhere around here earlier about the new russian PAK-FA that is supposed to be just like the raptor.


Su-47 is not a production fighter it was an experimental test platform like our X series. It had internal bays and some RAM applied to it but it was not as stealthy as the F/A-22. Also while discussion is plentiful about the PAK-FA, models and prototypes are not. I would wait before I assume anything about a plane that is still on the drawing board.


NR

posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 02:27 PM
link   
i didnt post to make F-22 look bad i just posted on your opinions or thought, i dont know much about the plane but despite all the media/publicity i think it be pretty good.



posted on Aug, 29 2005 @ 02:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
All I want is the links to the info, Please.


Please can we have the sources to your info.

[edit on 29-8-2005 by SpittinCobra]



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join