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China's Third World War

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posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 07:28 AM
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The US wants us to think the new post cold war enemey is an unyielding shadowy Islamic threat that has no country.
The reality is, World War 3 is still as real a possibility as it was 10 years ago,
and it all has to do with uncertainty with China and North Korea.

While I have no doubt that certain people from behind the scenes wanted WW1 and 2 to happen, heck even financed both sides...however with the nuclear possibility and the difference in modern warfare, it'd be in even the most corrupt levels of the US government to do everything to avoid war.

The US can create, manipulate and start middle eastern wars...but they would really not want something on a soul crushing level like the possibility of a conflict that involved China or NK.




posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 10:32 AM
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China has allowed the US to rely on it for cheap goods and commerce, you know, all the stuff you buy at Wal-Mart.

Now China is set to enter the US with cheaper electronics and cars, further taking away jobs in the US.

If there was war, there would be tradeembargoes that would crush the US in the short term, when supply outpaces demand.

At this point, China could do whatever it wants, along with the Russains in conquest of Asia and even wurope for resources.

China is a 'waking dragon' bieng poked by a Bear coming out of hibernation., but I don't think any of these 3 nations wants a war that would escalate to nuclear proportions.

As long as there is Wal mart, there is nothing to worry about



PS...ww3 started on 9/11



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 07:12 AM
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smallpeeps do you know that you are actually quoting from a chinese cult site?.

Just want to let you know what epoch times is



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by rockonchucktown
umm your race is superior to the german race? that is quite a racist comment. as for defeating the us in one blow: that would be impossible outside of a nuclear attack and that would be pointless because both countries would be in ruins.its not conventionally possible
dont forget japan thought they could do the same thing).currently, chiinas vast manpower could only overwhelm the us if the war was fought on chinese turf.
as for a another post about no wars being fought on the us mainland, there was the revolutionary war, the civil war, and currently, terrorist attcks
[edit on 9-10-2005 by rockonchucktown]

edited to shorten quote

[edit on 9-10-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]


Don't forget the war of 1812 ... the White House was actually in flames for that one ...

I agree with most of what has been said so far in this thread. China and Russia are gonna team up and try to kick the US's arse. I'm not so sure they could accomplish it but believe me the result would be a bloody mess.

And hearing the comments about China not being afraid to watch millions upon millions of its own people die just so they can hurt America, thats some scary stuff.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
smallpeeps do you know that you are actually quoting from a chinese cult site?.

Just want to let you know what epoch times is



The Epoch Times is not a 'cult newspaper'. It is portrayed as one by the CCP because The Epoch Times supports the end of the persecution of Falun Gong.

I know many of the Chinese on this board don't like this newspaper, heck I wrote a whole thread about this. Calling it a cult paper is the easiest way to dismiss the topics they cover (human rights) without having to address the issues.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
The Epoch Times is not a 'cult newspaper'. It is portrayed as one by the CCP because The Epoch Times supports the end of the persecution of Falun Gong.


Portrayed by the CCP. this is a personal opinion and not influenced by anyone

Anyone in their right mind came see good or evil right or wrong.

Epoch times is run and supported by falun gong. Now tell me how much more bias can it get.



I know many of the Chinese on this board don't like this newspaper, heck I wrote a whole thread about this.


You got me interested. where is this thread?



Calling it a cult paper is the easiest way to dismiss the topics they cover (human rights) without having to address the issues.


I am hardly trying to dismiss the isues. If there is a issue you would like to discuss by all means post it here.

PS: Nothing that has a ulterior notive or has a strong bias.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Epoch times is run and supported by falun gong. Now tell me how much more bias can it get.

I don't deny that Falun Gong members give donations to this paper. Their only revenue is from advertisements and donations from the public.

I don't think that this fact should be used to dismiss everything they cover. And I don't think that it should be referred to as a 'cult' paper.



You got me interested. where is this thread?

Right here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
I would be interested in any comments you might have. You may need to use a proxy server to view if you are on the Mainland. It was blocked previously, I am unsure if it still is.

I've learned a lot with that thread, speaking with Chinese members.



I am hardly trying to dismiss the isues. .

I didn't mean that you, specifically, were trying to dismiss anything other than the credibility of the paper. I feel that there has been an all-out assault on the credibility of the paper, and it originates with the CCP's demonization of FLG.

PS:Congratulations on Shenzhou VI!



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I don't deny that Falun Gong members give donations to this paper. Their only revenue is from advertisements and donations from the public.


And do you deny that the journalist practise falun gong?



I don't think that this fact should be used to dismiss everything they cover. And I don't think that it should be referred to as a 'cult' paper.


They might cover some important issues but they are extremly bias on these issues. I dont like reading one sided info. you can call that propaganda.




I would be interested in any comments you might have. You may need to use a proxy server to view if you are on the Mainland. It was blocked previously, I am unsure if it still is.


How come you assume im from the mainland or even chinese?

Anyway i am chinese but i live in australia.



I've learned a lot with that thread, speaking with Chinese members.


Some "chinese" members have a extremely good grasp of english.




I feel that there has been an all-out assault on the credibility of the paper, and it originates with the CCP's demonization of FLG.



I live in australia. i can say anything i want, Think anyway i want. I do not have a religion.

People that are born here can see through propaganda like water. The items the epoch times publishes are totally unbelievable.


membership question.

a estimate of 5million people left the communist party. How can they leave the party. You cant leave the party.

It brings me to the epoch times site. It has a counter of how much people are leaving the communist party a day. all you have to do is fill in a form on the internet and send it in.

Now if the CCP filters the net how can people on the mainland fill those papers?


The figures sound more like fundamentallist chinese posting their own opinions.



death over their whole period of rule.

60-80million is a extremely large number. how much mass graves for that?

If these deaths happened the chinese people would know. In 1970s the chinese population was about 700million if that much people died there wouldnt have been a increase in chinese population. But from chinas current population graphs there has been a huge increase.

If you use you logic you would know that the figures are very much inflated.



freedom

China is a much more freer than ten even five years ago.

They are now having elections at the village level and are planning elections at urban centres.

The govenment restricts the voice of the people but not to the extent most westeners think.

Yes china does stop people critizing the chinese government but only if it is to serious. This is not only because it doesn't want people to knw but also the chinese attitude to things. I can take critisim because i live in a westen country and we joke about things like this. But if you say the same things to a mainland chiense they will be offened.

You get my point



PS:Congratulations on Shenzhou VI!


I think its a achievment but nothing special.


PS: If you can, can youcontinue the Falun gong discussion in here?


[edit on 15-10-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey

freedom

China is a much more freer than ten even five years ago.

They are now having elections at the village level and are planning elections at urban centres.

The govenment restricts the voice of the people but not to the extent most westeners think.

Yes china does stop people critizing the chinese government but only if it is to serious. This is not only because it doesn't want people to knw but also the chinese attitude to things. I can take critisim because i live in a westen country and we joke about things like this. But if you say the same things to a mainland chiense they will be offened.

You get my point


I had to post this latest news link to further examine and add more depth to the overall concern of this thread. First i think that in relations to the strenghtening of democracy in the hands of the people is all talk and no walk for the Communist Political Party.


The government had previously allowed 'election recalls' - the replacement of unpopular village officials - in many other cases where there were sufficient grounds for such a move and a suitable majority in favour, she said. The government had previously allowed 'election recalls' - the replacement of unpopular village officials - in many other cases where there were sufficient grounds for such a move and a suitable majority in favour, But ever since last year there has been a big move backwards. Lots of non-Party members were being elected and the Communist Party felt threatened," she said.

So my question is if democracy is supposed to be strengthening in china but at the lower levels the Communist Party is being 'threatened' are they using pre determined form of democracy to try and stop citizen uprise?
I think so.

[edit on 15-10-2005 by Nathabeanz]



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 01:48 AM
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posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
And do you deny that the journalist practise falun gong?

I don't know any of the reporters but it would not surprise me at all if there were FLG members working for the paper.



They might cover some important issues but they are extremly bias on these issues. I dont like reading one sided info. you can call that propaganda.

Most media is biased in some direction or another. I actually disagree with many of what appears to be the editorial position. I find it to be a very conservative paper, with the exception of human rights.

When Han Guangsheng defected to Canada, The Epoch Times gave up it's exclusive interview and invited the Canadian Press to join them in order to get wider coverage and more attention for his story. They went out of their way to give another news agency the chance to cover the story. If this was heavily spun the CP was in on it. Normally Canadian papers don't criticize China very much at all. China is our second-largest trading partner and we want to continue good relations.

I do go out of my way to seek confirmation from other sources on what I read in the paper, and most of the time I can find it.



How come you assume im from the mainland or even chinese?

Anyway i am chinese but i live in australia.

I've been a member here for a while now and have read many posts by you. Either you are Chinese, or you have been impersonating one for a while now.


I didn't assume you were from the Mainland, I used the word if.



Some "chinese" members have a extremely good grasp of english.

Yes and that's commendable. I can only speak one language fluently.

When I said I learned a lot, I meant it. Once a few Chinese (without the quotes) members got over their suspicions of me and realized that I really wanted to understand more, we had some good discussions. We even talked rationally about what kind of changes they felt would need to come about for democracy in China.



I live in australia. i can say anything i want, Think anyway i want. I do not have a religion.

Good for you!
Nobody can stop thoughts (yet
) but free speech is a precious thing.

I don't care about people's religions, what matters to me is actions.



People that are born here can see through propaganda like water. The items the epoch times publishes are totally unbelievable.

I am going to assume that you are talking about the resignations because the Human Rights abuses are documented by many other groups, not just The Epoch Times.

I have expressed my desire many times for a larger, well-respected agency to investigate the claims. I just don't have the resources or access to the raw data.



a estimate of 5million people left the communist party. How can they leave the party. You cant leave the party.

I think it's a symbolic thing. For someone on the Mainland to resign under their real name would just be stupid. I am sure that not all of the 5 million live in China.



Now if the CCP filters the net how can people on the mainland fill those papers?

They use DynaWeb, a product of Dynamic Internet Technology Inc.



If you use you logic you would know that the figures are very much inflated.

That would be a big grave. I think when they come up with that figure all of the people that died from starvation during the famine are included.



They are now having elections at the village level and are planning elections at urban centres.

I would like the Chinese people to have a democracy but it is not my priority. I care about the Human Rights issues. China could become the most democratic and free country in the whole world and it wouldn't make a difference to me until the government stops abusing their own citizens.



You get my point

I do. I live in Vancouver and we have a large Chinese population, many of them relatively new to the country. They are intensely private and don't like to air 'dirty laundry' in public.



I think its a achievment but nothing special.

I think it is special. I want someone to be furthering manned spaced exploration.



PS: If you can, can youcontinue the Falun gong discussion in here?

I have no problem with that, as long as everybody else is OK with it. I don't want to jack smallpeep's thread.



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Nathabeanz

Originally posted by Duzey
freedom

Just to clarify, that was chinawhite's post.

That is definitely not something I would say.



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I don't know any of the reporters but it would not surprise me at all if there were FLG members working for the paper.


The epoch times is a falun gong site. there is no doubt about that.



Most media is biased in some direction or another. I actually disagree with many of what appears to be the editorial position. I find it to be a very conservative paper, with the exception of human rights.


Conservative. well you have your opinion and i have mine. im not trying to make you think my way but only giving my opinion.

The statistics and figures the epoch times gives are highly unbelievable.



When Han Guangsheng defected to Canada, The Epoch Times gave up it's exclusive interview and invited the Canadian Press to join them in order to get wider coverage and more attention for his story. They went out of their way to give another news agency the chance to cover the story. If this was heavily spun the CP was in on it. Normally Canadian papers don't criticize China very much at all. China is our second-largest trading partner and we want to continue good relations.


We had the same defection claim in australia.

He claimed 1000 chinese nationals were spies. What is your opinion on this figure?.

The reason that comes to my mind for the epoch times giving ups its exclusive interview, would be that no one would listen.

Now fro a westener and a headline like thousands of chinese spies in canada broadcasted on the 6 o'clock news would catch attention

I do go out of my way to seek confirmation from other sources on what I read in the paper, and most of the time I can find it.



I've been a member here for a while now and have read many posts by you. Either you are Chinese, or you have been impersonating one for a while now.


Oh ok. haha famous.




Yes and that's commendable. I can only speak one language fluently.


I meant the member welcomeinpeace.

He seems to know more english that the average chinese



When I said I learned a lot, I meant it. Once a few Chinese (without the quotes) members got over their suspicions of me and realized that I really wanted to understand more, we had some good discussions. We even talked rationally about what kind of changes they felt would need to come about for democracy in China.


Wow i see a whole basket of people i already met.

There are your extremes Welcomeinpeace, Oct and northrage. and your moderates you and rapier28.

I dont see how those people represent any averages.



Good for you!
Nobody can stop thoughts (yet
) but free speech is a precious thing.
I don't care about people's religions, what matters to me is actions.


Free speech? Its not actually as good as most people think.

I cant go in the streets giving lectures to people about the world i cant call johnny a @#$% head. yes in private i can but not in the streets.

The police might do something like arrest me(druken behavior) but what i would propably get is told to !@#$ by other people.(people dont like to be told their wrong)

Most people have enough decently to not do the things most people think they can do in a demoracy.



I am going to assume that you are talking about the resignations because the Human Rights abuses are documented by many other groups, not just The Epoch Times.


Human rights.? this subject always bothers me because i have no way to disprove any of this. All the chinese government does is give a letter saying that it is a lie and do not show edvidence of it not happening or never happened.



I have expressed my desire many times for a larger, well-respected agency to investigate the claims. I just don't have the resources or access to the raw data.


You would have to put countries in different categories.

Developing nations and developed nations have different attitudes to human rights. One wants the death penalty one doesn't.



I think it's a symbolic thing. For someone on the Mainland to resign under their real name would just be stupid. I am sure that not all of the 5 million live in China.


Resign as in how.

I dont get how the EP finds this out. the figures they give are 20,000 a day. how many walls in china have resignation papers.

I think they just counted every form they recived as a form from the mainland



They use DynaWeb, a product of Dynamic Internet Technology Inc.


But to use this to just sign a resignation without a real name.



That would be a big grave. I think when they come up with that figure all of the people that died from starvation during the famine are included.


A famine?

i dont believe there was a famine but a lot of malnutrition.

In the the mid-50s china had a large surplus of grain.(im not sure of this figure but it was large) they built a large network of roads and transportation. etc.

Areas which had a surplus gave to areas which didn't.

Yes those years were known as the three bad years. because every year there was a natural disater. flooding in one area while drought in another.



I would like the Chinese people to have a democracy but it is not my priority. I care about the Human Rights issues. China could become the most democratic and free country in the whole world and it wouldn't make a difference to me until the government stops abusing their own citizens.


What abuses in particular?



I do. I live in Vancouver and we have a large Chinese population, many of them relatively new to the country. They are intensely private and don't like to air 'dirty laundry' in public.


Thats what i am saying. most chinese dont like to hear critisim from anyone. if you critism a chinese do it behind their backs dont go up front.




I think it is special. I want someone to be furthering manned spaced exploration.


Man has already been to space. with the primitive tech we have now we cant reach for the stars.

The tech we are using is the same as we used 60years ago.



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 05:01 AM
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Originally posted by Nathabeanz
First i think that in relations to the strenghtening of democracy in the hands of the people is all talk and no walk for the Communist Political Party.


The people in your article elected the governor. It wasn't as if they weren't given a choice.



So my question is if democracy is supposed to be strengthening in china but at the lower levels the Communist Party is being 'threatened' are they using pre determined form of democracy to try and stop citizen uprise?
I think so.


Pre determind. thats quite interesting.

I dont know unless your in the CCP at the high levels you will know



posted on Oct, 15 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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Please continue with the Falun Gong issue. I am curious to know why these articles at the link I provided should be dismissed out of hand. I'd like to see how anyone can prove that Falun Gong harms the CCP.

chinawhite you do not have to be a falun gong practicioner to see that the CCP policy against cults will fail. A government must allow freedom of religion --which should be the common law of any land where humans dwell together. As an unfortunate side-consequence, this means that weird religious cults will happen. If the people do not respect the government, then there is a problem, but do they need to be beaten and killed? Wikipedia says this:



The Tiananmen Square Self-Immolation Incident

The campaign of government criticism begun in 1999 was considered by most observers to be largely ineffectual until January 2001, when persons whom the government claimed were Falun Gong practitioners, among them a 13-year-old child, allegedly doused themselves with gasoline and set themselves on fire in Tiananmen Square. Gruesome videos of the incident were widely broadcast on Chinese state television, as were interviews with the 13-year old who was horribly burned and whose mother did not survive the incident.

Falun Gong practitioners strongly denied that the persons could have been actual Falun Gong practitioners, since killing, especially in the form of suicide, is strictly forbidden by the principles of Falun Gong. In addition, some people have suggested that the incident was either a hoax or staged, pointing out several strange inconsistencies that are present on the video footage of the incident broadcasted by State-run Xinhua News Agency. Among them are the fact that one of the burn victims appears to be wearing protective clothing, has unburnt hair, and the green plastic bottle that supposedly carried the gasoline was not even burned. Independent, third-party investigations continue to be denied by the PRC government. Supporters of Falun Gong have created a video called "False Fire", which deconstructs the incident in slow motion. [8]

www.faluninfo.net... is the website which shows some of the horrific video. It seems to be claiming that some of the bystanders are acting very strangely for what is happening. Also, one of the victims seems to be struck on the head (fatally) as they are simultaneously being fire-extinguished. Not a pretty sight, but yes, it looks as though this might have been staged. The woman was known by her neighbors, but they did not ever know her to practice falun gong, from what I read.

As I understand it, the Taipang Rebellion happened around the same time as the the US civil war.

en.wikipedia.org...



The Taiping Rebellion (1851–1864) was one of the bloodiest conflicts in history, a clash between the forces of Imperial China and those inspired by a Hakka self-proclaimed mystic named Hong Xiuquan, who was also a Christian convert who had claimed that he was the new Messiah and younger brother of Jesus Christ. Most accurate sources put the total deaths at about 20 million civilians and army personnel, although some claim the death toll was much higher (as many as 40 million according to in least one source.[1]). There are reports that "Some historians have estimated that the combination of natural disasters combined with the political insurrections may have cost on the order of 200 million Chinese lives between 1850–1865 [2]". That figure would generally be considered out of the mainstream in historical circles though as it equals half the population of China in 1851.[3]

chinawhite, what can you tell us about Hong Xiuquan? Do you see our current era of globalization as being the same fertile soil for revolution and god-assumption as Hong Xiuquan's time was? I do not.

Is that what the CCP is fearing? That this posturing group (weird but no weirder than most), Falun Gong is worth this large effort of persecution?



Hong Xiuquan gathered his support in a time of considerable turmoil. [...] The sect extended into militarism in the 1840s, initially against banditry. The persecution of the sect was the spur for the struggle to develop into guerrilla warfare and then into full-blown war.

Notice how Wikipedia says that the persecution of the sect was the catalyst for those millions of dead Chinese people that resulted?


The revolt began in Guangxi Province. In early January 1851, a ten-thousand-strong rebel army routed the Imperial troops at the town of Jintian (Jintian Uprising). The Imperial forces attacked but were driven back. In August 1851, Hong then declared the establishment of the Heavenly Kingdom of Taiping with himself as absolute ruler. The revolt spread northwards with great rapidity. 500,000 Taiping soldiers took Nanjing in March 1853, killing 30,000 Imperial soldiers and slaughtering thousands of civilians. The city became the movement's capital and was renamed Tiānjīng.

chinawhite, do you see Falun Gong (in today's disarmed china) as being the same sort of threat as a cultish warlord who claimed to be Jesus' son?

Anyway, human rights are still worth something in the USA (unless you're labelled a 'terrorist') so as a citizen of the US, I can take the moral high ground. Chinese policy is way out of whack in this regard. No matter how much I may loathe religious cults, non-violent members should not be harmed or jailed unlawfully.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
The epoch times is a falun gong site. there is no doubt about that.

They give a lot of attention to the plight of FLG in China. I am sure several staff members at the paper are FLG members. FLG members undoubtably donate money to the paper. That doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong.

The position they take is that there is an abundance of pro-CCP coverage out there already and many Western papers don't talk about these issues because they don't want to hurt trade.



Conservative. well you have your opinion and i have mine. im not trying to make you think my way but only giving my opinion.

The statistics and figures the epoch times gives are highly unbelievable.

When I said Conservative I was referring to their political stances, not the resignation figures.

As for the figures, I can only say what I have already said. I want another highly respected news agency to investigate. I do think there is a movement growing but I have no way of knowing how many of these people actually are from the Mainland and how many are from other countries.



We had the same defection claim in australia.

He claimed 1000 chinese nationals were spies. What is your opinion on this figure?

I think all countries spy on each other. It seems like a high number but if I do the math, it works out to less than .1% of all the Chinese in Canada. I am sure the PRC has more people than that just working in their Canadian offices. So 1000 doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

It also depends on what activities are considered spying. That was never fully explained.



The reason that comes to my mind for the epoch times giving ups its exclusive interview, would be that no one would listen.

They gave up the exclusive to get a wider audience. I think we agree on this one. The CP has a higher profile and is a well-respected agency in Canada. The involvement of the CP gives Han's story more credibility with Chinese-Canadians.



Now fro a westener and a headline like thousands of chinese spies in canada broadcasted on the 6 o'clock news would catch attention

For about two days and then we get caught up in our own internal dramas again. It doesn't really harm the PRC in any way because everyobody already knew there were spies.



I meant the member welcomeinpeace.

He seems to know more english that the average chinese

That's because wecomeinpeace is not Chinese. He just lives there.




There are your extremes Welcomeinpeace, Oct and northrage. and your moderates you and rapier28.

I dont see how those people represent any averages.

There were a few others I talked to like google_abcd, joechino and suihx who probably represent some average Chinese viewpoints. Not being from China, I don't get many opportunites to hear that. That's why I love ATS so much. It gives me that chance.



Most people have enough decently to not do the things most people think they can do in a demoracy.

I would agree that not behaving like a total butthead will help you get along in society. I think that having the ability to discuss things and criticize our governments is a good thing. I believe a government should be somewhat accountable to the people it serves and open discussion helps do that.



Human rights.? this subject always bothers me because i have no way to disprove any of this. All the chinese government does is give a letter saying that it is a lie and do not show edvidence of it not happening or never happened.

This is my huge concern. Right now FLG is the main focus and there is a big divide on that. Some people appear to not have a problem with it because of how they feel about their practice. For me it is a freedom of religion issue.

Due to the private nature of the Chinese, I don't think anyone will ever now the true extent. They are very reluctant to reveal anything that may reflect poorly on them. A recent example of this was SARS.



Developing nations and developed nations have different attitudes to human rights. One wants the death penalty one doesn't.

Not entirely true. The US has the death penalty in several states and they are certainly a developed country. Canada had it up until about 20 years ago. I believe it is still on the books for some crimes, such as murdering a police officer or prison guard on duty. In my country it would be safe to say that probably at least 30% of the citizens would like to have it brought back.



I think they just counted every form they recived as a form from the mainland

I have tried to get a breakdown of country of origin but have been unsuccessful so far. I don't think all of them are from the Mainland. Every time Quit the CCP has a rally in a country such as the US or the UK the resignations grow. To me that indicates these are not all Mainland Chinese.



But to use this to just sign a resignation without a real name.

I think it's a symbolic gesture. By severing the bond in such a manner, they feel free of the CCP. I doubt these people are going down to headquarters to hand in their party resignation. To resign in your real name would hurt your family and quite possibly harm your earning potential. No Chinese person I know would do something that would harm their family, they are the most important thing.



In the the mid-50s china had a large surplus of grain.(im not sure of this figure but it was large) they built a large network of roads and transportation. etc.

It is generally accepted that during the late 50's, 10's of millions of rural peasants died from malnutrition/starvation. While they were busy building the roads and mines, private food production was not allowed. It all had to go into the community pot. Most of that grain went to the big cities as the CCP could not afford to uspet these areas so early in their rule. They needed the support from the heavily populated areas and neglected the rural ones.

There are reports of a giant surplus but I don't think you will find many Westerners who think that was anything but a lie to keep the Chinese from revolting against the CCP. If the people in the cities had known that 1/3 of China's provinces were suffering from famine, there would have been problems.



What abuses in particular?

I worry about freedom of religion and torture. Putting FLG aside for one moment, Christians, Muslims and Buddhists regularily end up in camps for no reason but their religion. Chinese people are guaranteed freedom of religion in their constitution and I think they deserve it.

The labour camps bother me as well. I understand the idea of making criminals pay for their upkeep and contribute to society but they need to be treated in a humane manner. Political and religious dissent should not be an indictable offense, in my opinion.

I also think that by using prison labour to produce cheap products they are harming local Chinese businessmen who employ law-abiding citizens. The labour camps put Chinese people out of work.



Thats what i am saying. most chinese dont like to hear critisim from anyone. if you critism a chinese do it behind their backs dont go up front.

I am not trying to criticize the Chinese people, I criticize the CCP (the ones in power, not the average member). The CCP is not China. China was around for 5000 years before they came and will be around for 5000 years after they are gone.

In Western culture it is considered rude to criticize people behind their back and not give them a chance to respond. It is looked down on and people who do that are not well trusted by those around them.



The tech we are using is the same as we used 60years ago.

By China sending men into space they will encourage other countries, such as the US, to put more money into research for more advanced technologies. China could be the country that sparks a new interest and investment in space exploration.


Originally posted by smallpeeps
Please continue with the Falun Gong issue. I am curious to know why these articles at the link I provided should be dismissed out of hand. I'd like to see how anyone can prove that Falun Gong harms the CCP.

Thanks.

FLG is a threat to the CCP because there are so many practitioners. They were praised by the CCP as a good thing until they held a silent, non-violent protest in 1999. They were outlawed within two months and have been persecuted ever since.

I can go into the FLG situation more but that will be another post. This one is far, far too long already.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps
Please continue with the Falun Gong issue. I am curious to know why these articles at the link I provided should be dismissed out of hand. I'd like to see how anyone can prove that Falun Gong harms the CCP.


Its not about harming the CCP. Its harming the chinese people.

1.
1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Charismatic leader.=Li Hongzhi

Fasle Acts= Li Hongzhi stated that there are aliens and believe in the supernatural.


2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.


The falun gongs tricks chinese into giving donations for a better life. Ill try dig up the BBC interview with Li Hongzhi.



chinawhite you do not have to be a falun gong practicioner to see that the CCP policy against cults will fail. A government must allow freedom of religion


Will fail? The thing that will fail is the falun gong.



--which should be the common law of any land where humans dwell together. As an unfortunate side-consequence, this means that weird religious cults will happen. If the people do not respect the government, then there is a problem, but do they need to be beaten and killed? Wikipedia says this:


Americans vote for two differnt groups in elections do they dont? how can a person that voted for the losing side respect the side that won? is that government going to fail because a few people do not respect the government



www.faluninfo.net... is the website which shows some of the horrific video. It seems to be claiming that some of the bystanders are acting very strangely for what is happening. Also, one of the victims seems to be struck on the head (fatally) as they are simultaneously being fire-extinguished. Not a pretty sight, but yes, it looks as though this might have been staged. The woman was known by her neighbors, but they did not ever know her to practice falun gong, from what I read.


Conspiracy theories?

Like how america didn't land on the moon or what is in area 51.



chinawhite, what can you tell us about Hong Xiuquan? Do you see our current era of globalization as being the same fertile soil for revolution and god-assumption as Hong Xiuquan's time was? I do not.


What has Hong Xiuquan got to do with the falun gong.? He tried to overthrow the Qing which he didn't do

he practiced christianity and was a hakka(like myself).

The chinese people are not looking for someone that can get them out the extreme poverty and rebellions which they were in during Hong Xiuquans time. But are looking for ways to get money which the communist are doing.



Is that what the CCP is fearing? That this posturing group (weird but no weirder than most), Falun Gong is worth this large effort of persecution?


Why are you asking me what the CCP is fearing.

Im not communist i dont live on the mainland.



Notice how Wikipedia says that the persecution of the sect was the catalyst for those millions of dead Chinese people that resulted?


You are comparing X amount of deaths to Y amount of deaths.

People are not going to die from not knowing what is happening in other places of the world.

Yes religion is condemned in china but thats because its a communist system and communist disprove of worthshipping something that is not true.

In todays world people are relying less on god and religion for guidence. The type of guidence our ancestors used to explain events which they couldn't prove.

But modern science and tchnology disprove a lot of myths that have built up over the years.

Eg. Who created the universe. Is the earth flat



chinawhite, do you see Falun Gong (in today's disarmed china) as being the same sort of threat as a cultish warlord who claimed to be Jesus' son?


Falun gong pales in comparison to what Hong Xiuquan could get. The chinese people that joined Hong Xiuquan were illiterate peasants which were living in absolute poverty. The divide between rich and poor was so great that one person in a village could own 99% of the wealth while the rest of the village were his slaves. drowning in debt.

In china today people are literate and know modern principles of the universe. They will not be tricked into believing supernatural powers or are in a state where they cannot prosper.



Anyway, human rights are still worth something in the USA (unless you're labelled a 'terrorist') so as a citizen of the US, I can take the moral high ground. Chinese policy is way out of whack in this regard. No matter how much I may loathe religious cults, non-violent members should not be harmed or jailed unlawfully.


As a cizizen of Australia i can take the higher ground(since my government doesn't detain people for a long period of time againest their free will)

Lots of Human rights violations happen all across the world, why does the focus always shine on china? is it because it is prospering or is it because americans see it as a threat.?



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
They give a lot of attention to the plight of FLG in China. I am sure several staff members at the paper are FLG members. FLG members undoubtably donate money to the paper. That doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong.


You dont understand what i am talking about.

I am trying to say that the things the FLG might be true but it is overly bias.

A example is. A magazine which reads. all-american news support bush(written by a american hawk). and a magazine which reads inside america(written by a conserative)

Which paper would you pick up?




I think all countries spy on each other. It seems like a high number but if I do the math, it works out to less than .1% of all the Chinese in Canada. I am sure the PRC has more people than that just working in their Canadian offices. So 1000 doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

It also depends on what activities are considered spying. That was never fully explained.


But a chinese scienist looking around your facility.

If the PRC was going to hire someone to spy for them why wouldn't they hire a Caucasian which wouldn't be suspected to be connected to the PRC.

Thinking about it. They never explained what they were spying on.





They gave up the exclusive to get a wider audience. I think we agree on this one. The CP has a higher profile and is a well-respected agency in Canada. The involvement of the CP gives Han's story more credibility with Chinese-Canadians.


I dont think getting a wider audience is the problem but trying to make people believe in the epoch times.




That's because wecomeinpeace is not Chinese. He just lives there.


Isn't he? he mentioned in another thread that he was a chiense from shanghai.

Strange



There were a few others I talked to like google_abcd, joechino and suihx who probably represent some average Chinese viewpoints. Not being from China, I don't get many opportunites to hear that. That's why I love ATS so much. It gives me that chance.


I dont really know.

I met those people mentioned but they normally just flooded a thread and didn't really share their viewpoints in the threads which i talked to them in





This is my huge concern. Right now FLG is the main focus and there is a big divide on that. Some people appear to not have a problem with it because of how they feel about their practice. For me it is a freedom of religion issue.

Due to the private nature of the Chinese, I don't think anyone will ever now the true extent. They are very reluctant to reveal anything that may reflect poorly on them. A recent example of this was SARS.


Losing face. How i love that.

I do not represent the average chinese(mainly because i dont live there) But more of a westener that is inclided to the chinese side. Yes i am chiense but i lived here for so long being chinese is not to important anymore



Not entirely true. The US has the death penalty in several states and they are certainly a developed country. Canada had it up until about 20 years ago. I believe it is still on the books for some crimes, such as murdering a police officer or prison guard on duty. In my country it would be safe to say that probably at least 30% of the citizens would like to have it brought back.


I generalized on that one a little to much. The majority of developed nations and non-developed nations have different opinions.





I have tried to get a breakdown of country of origin but have been unsuccessful so far. I don't think all of them are from the Mainland. Every time Quit the CCP has a rally in a country such as the US or the UK the resignations grow. To me that indicates these are not all Mainland Chinese.


I dont even think 1% are mainland chinese. Or even that much.




It is generally accepted that during the late 50's, 10's of millions of rural peasants died from malnutrition/starvation.


Generally accepted? maybe in the west.



While they were busy building the roads and mines, private food production was not allowed. It all had to go into the community pot. Most of that grain went to the big cities as the CCP could not afford to uspet these areas so early in their rule.

In the 50s people did have private plots. Then they started the collectize which a few households would band together and share resources .Only during the great leap forward did we get introduced to the commune. mutally shared profits and land.


They needed the support from the heavily populated areas and neglected the rural ones.


That is absolutly not-true. The chinese communist were based on the peasant. Its military doctrine(peoples war) , the peasant was the main factor of defense. Its economy, Backyard furnaces and the ant armies.

The communist needed the support of the chinese peasants and later on turned on the middle classes.



There are reports of a giant surplus but I don't think you will find many Westerners who think that was anything but a lie to keep the Chinese from revolting against the CCP. If the people in the cities had known that 1/3 of China's provinces were suffering from famine, there would have been problems.


There are many autobiography's about those times. They are good reads.

Ill try get you some figures for grain production. I seen them before in books and they were impressive growths form pre-1949 times.

With incresed irrigation, pesticdes and the main one peace. It would be logical to assume that grain prodcution soared after 1949.



I worry about freedom of religion and torture. Putting FLG aside for one moment, Christians, Muslims and Buddhists regularily end up in camps for no reason but their religion. Chinese people are guaranteed freedom of religion in their constitution and I think they deserve it.


Religion.......No comment.

I am a pagan and i dont know what people that believe in god think about life.



The labour camps bother me as well. I understand the idea of making criminals pay for their upkeep and contribute to society but they need to be treated in a humane manner. Political and religious dissent should not be an indictable offense, in my opinion.


Labour camps. People that commit a crime should be punished. Living in a cell and doing nothing is no punishment. yeah you do miss watchng movie being with your friends blah blah blah. but you choose to break a law and deserve what you get.



I also think that by using prison labour to produce cheap products they are harming local Chinese businessmen who employ law-abiding citizens. The labour camps put Chinese people out of work.


America does that to.
something like 73cents a hour.



In Western culture it is considered rude to criticize people behind their back and not give them a chance to respond. It is looked down on and people who do that are not well trusted by those around them.


Yes i know that, but talking face to face with a chinese is bad.

If you are a chinese child you would know not to take advice off westen children.



By China sending men into space they will encourage other countries, such as the US, to put more money into research for more advanced technologies. China could be the country that sparks a new interest and investment in space exploration.


True. But that is money that can be spent fixing our own planet.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Which paper would you pick up?

Probably both. If I only read one of them I would not be able to see the differences. I always look for at least two versions of the same story because I know bias is being injected. Then I would try and find the middle ground between them and see what issues there is common agreement on.

I do understand what you are saying about the Epoch Times. One of the first things I did when I started talking to Rapier28 was ask him for a list of other papers which he felt would give me a good overview of China today. I asked him about the differences between the Chinese and English version published, looking for discrepancies. I also had a Chinese member who read the English verion of FLG materials and asked him if there were any differences.

I don't just blindly accept everything the Epoch Times reports.



If the PRC was going to hire someone to spy for them why wouldn't they hire a Caucasian which wouldn't be suspected to be connected to the PRC.

That does make more sense. That's why I'm not sure what spying Han and Chen meant. Are they talking about the reporting of FLG activites overseas? Keeping tabs on Chinese visitors to make sure they don't do anything they are not supposed to? Or industrial espionage?

Without knowing what the defectors are referring to, I don't know.



Thinking about it. They never explained what they were spying on.

Exactly. Without knowing that, I can't really make an informed opinion.



I dont think getting a wider audience is the problem but trying to make people believe in the epoch times.

I don't think you can make a person believe what they don't want to. I do see Chinese people reading the Epoch Times during my commute. I just haven't gotten the courage to ask them what they think of the paper.

I don't think they would answer me though, and I would probably just annoy them.



Isn't he? he mentioned in another thread that he was a chiense from shanghai.

Now I'm not sure. I've really never come right out and asked him. If he is Chinese, he is like no other Chinese person I have ever met.



I met those people mentioned but they normally just flooded a thread and didn't really share their viewpoints in the threads which i talked to them in

Tell me about it. One of those members and one you mentioned before had a spam fight in my thread and it ended up trashed before I appealed to the mods to punish the members and not bin the thread.

I know that one of them was not really confident in his English and felt he need to flood the thread so he could get his point across. google_abcd didn't spam though. He did give his thoughts on some issues.



Losing face. How i love that.

Pride is a problem for all nations, western and eastern. Some countries take it a little further than others.



Generally accepted? maybe in the west.

Unfortunately the CCP has been so deceptive about serious issues in the past, most westerners don't believe them. Much like most, not all, Chinese don't believe or trust Westerners.



That is absolutly not-true. The chinese communist were based on the peasant. Its military doctrine(peoples war) , the peasant was the main factor of defense. Its economy, Backyard furnaces and the ant armies.

The CCP did get in power through the peasants but the cities was where they needed to gain support. The CCP built their party on the backs of the peasants and then left them out in the cold. Without the cities, they could not have claimed power and been recognized by the rest of the world.

Not that China gives a flying leap how the rest of the world sees them, but it is handy to not have a divided country when you are asking for foreign aid.



Ill try get you some figures for grain production. I seen them before in books and they were impressive growths form pre-1949 times.

That would be appreciated.


I know the communes were introduced for grain production but it appears much of it was diverted to the cities to maintain peace. Note I said appears, I wasn't alive then.




Religion.......No comment.

Perfect. I just wish the CCP would take the same stance.

If these people want to believe in UFO's or whatever, they should be able to.



Labour camps. People that commit a crime should be punished. Living in a cell and doing nothing is no punishment. yeah you do miss watchng movie being with your friends blah blah blah. but you choose to break a law and deserve what you get.

I probably wasn't clear enough. I have no problem with prisoners working to help offset the cost of housing and feeding. I only object to the extreme conditions they are forced to work in.



America does that to.
something like 73cents a hour.

The difference, to me, is that America's prison work systems do not compete with small businesses. In the rural areas of China, the peasants need all the employment they can get.

There is also a huge difference in the way the US treats it's prisoners. The domestic ones that have been charged and convicted at least.



Yes i know that, but talking face to face with a chinese is bad.

If you are a chinese child you would know not to take advice off westen children.

I only speak about this with Chinese people I know very well and on ATS. I wouldn't dream of asking a random Chinese person off the street what they thought about all of this. They would give me a funny look and walk away.

Except for the FLG members of course. They are happy to talk about their situation with anyone who askes them.

It is sad that there is so much distrust of Westerners. We're not all evil. Why is that, do you know?



True. But that is money that can be spent fixing our own planet.

Agreed.

I don't think that money would have gone to fixing the planet if it weren't spent on space exploration. In the case of the US, it would go towards the military and weapons. I prefer they spend it on exploration.

[edit on 16-10-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Probably both. If I only read one of them I would not be able to see the differences. I always look for at least two versions of the same story because I know bias is being injected. Then I would try and find the middle ground between them and see what issues there is common agreement on.


But from a conservaive side and a extreme side the medium of that is more etreme than conservative.



I don't think you can make a person believe what they don't want to. I do see Chinese people reading the Epoch Times during my commute. I just haven't gotten the courage to ask them what they think of the paper.


But with news on the television and nothing else people will watch.

When you play someting on the news over and over again people will think that is the truth




Now I'm not sure. I've really never come right out and asked him. If he is Chinese, he is like no other Chinese person I have ever met.


He claims to be chinese but he is not like any chinese i have met ethier.



Tell me about it. One of those members and one you mentioned before had a spam fight in my thread and it ended up trashed before I appealed to the mods to punish the members and not bin the thread.
I know that one of them was not really confident in his English and felt he need to flood the thread so he could get his point across. google_abcd didn't spam though. He did give his thoughts on some issues.


I think it was google_abcd. im 99% sure it was him.

He over quotes everything.



Pride is a problem for all nations, western and eastern. Some countries take it a little further than others.


The have a code of coduct thing about losing face.




The CCP did get in power through the peasants but the cities was where they needed to gain support. The CCP built their party on the backs of the peasants and then left them out in the cold. Without the cities, they could not have claimed power and been recognized by the rest of the world.


The PRC was isolated from the rest of the world at that point. It didn't care what the urban class wanted or needed.



That would be appreciated.

I know the communes were introduced for grain production but it appears much of it was diverted to the cities to maintain peace. Note I said appears, I wasn't alive then.


here is something
www.fao.org...

There is a dramatic derease in grain production but enough for people to survive.


Also the westen world knew nothing about those years until the late 70s after the PR released population statistics. They weren't based on first hand accounts during that period but from population statistics.

And statistics for china are sketchy at best.



I probably wasn't clear enough. I have no problem with prisoners working to help offset the cost of housing and feeding. I only object to the extreme conditions they are forced to work in.


A 38hour work week is not something prisoners deserve.

Most people that work in chian japan korea all work very long hours compared to the west.



The difference, to me, is that America's prison work systems do not compete with small businesses. In the rural areas of China, the peasants need all the employment they can get.


But the manufractures cant keep in buiness without its prison workers.

Its just a informed guess.




I only speak about this with Chinese people I know very well and on ATS. I wouldn't dream of asking a random Chinese person off the street what they thought about all of this. They would give me a funny look and walk away.


You should try. Ask for their opinion.

canadian chinese are alright



It is sad that there is so much distrust of Westerners. We're not all evil. Why is that, do you know?


I dont think that chiense that lived in other countries a lot will feel about westeners the same way as other people do.



I don't think that money would have gone to fixing the planet if it weren't spent on space exploration. In the case of the US, it would go towards the military and weapons. I prefer they spend it on exploration.


True.

But i would be nice to think that it was.




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