Tell us what ticks you off

I'm interested in getting a feel for what people DON'T like about the political parties- obviously useful info for me since I plan to be America's most successful independent one day.

Please do not single out individuals for matters not related to their political stances, and avoid the urge to make generalized insults. Just tell us which party you care for THE LEAST and what about its actions and platform makes you feel that way.

No name calling though- this is slug fest, not elementary school.

For my example, I will use the Republican party, but Democrats are just as guilty of what I call the 'sports team loyalty'.

That's where the party's public figures (Rove, DeLay, Bush) can do anything illegal or immoral (lie, cheat, swear), and the followers (who claim to be against this behavior) will make excuses for them and follow them to the end, in the way some sort of faithful football fan sticks with their team, even though they're on a losing streak.

Now, I understand this mindset and even admire it in a football (or any sport) fan, but when a political leader speaks out against dishonesty, for example and then lies to your face, it's time to think twice about your loyalty to this person.

The Republican figure heads claim to value morals and family values, Christianity and freedom and there is no real indication that they do. Their leaders are some of the most blatant hypocrites I've run across.

So, it's not the hypocracy of the leaders that bothers me so much, but the blind allegiance of followers; the regular people who refuse to recognize that their leaders scoff at the very basis of what their party stands for, all in the name of team loyalty.

[edit on 29-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

[edit on 29-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

The lies and the kowtowing to special interests groups!
That is probably my biggest gripe against any / all politicians.

I am in sort of an odd spot for answering my own question. Fiscally and in foreign policy I am conservative (which are nominally Republican traits- or so I'm told- I don't see it.)
In other respects, mainly socially, I'm more liberal- I believe in the government's duty to regulate to the extent necessary to prevent the establishment of minor tyranies within our nation (for example preventing employment from being wielded as a sword of damocles to yield undue power to employers) etc. This would nominally make me a Democrat.

So I couldn't even begin to pick which side I detest more, nor can I completely generalize what I dislike about the two parties because while they share flaws in common they also have their own unique flaws which grate on my nerves just as heavily.

If I were forced to give a brief overview of my grievances though, the most lamentable common problem for the parties is quite simply that they are entities rather than ideologies. The partisan machinery is designed to block compromise, wield money and favors as implements of blackmail and bribery, and to keep "outsiders" from interfering with the big game. I beleive that the parties represent nothing short of the centralized planning of high crimes against the United States- high crimes in the context used in our constitution, by the way, refers to corrupt and teasonous offenses related to the abuse of an office to the disadvantage of the nation for personal reasons- this is heavy weight stuff!

Their individual problems of the respective parties, in my view are as follows:
1. Many Republicans, especially what is sometimes called the "religious right", are convinced that they hold a moral highground before they ever take a matter under intellectual consideration. They often present a very poor case for their positions because they are not presenting the logic which lead them to a conclusion, but instead apologetics for a conclusion they were determined to arrive at from the get go.

2. Many Democrats come across as short sighted because they seem much more certain about what they don't want than about what they do want. I for one do not uphold foolish idealism, which is how I sometimes interpret the attitudes of individuals who present very little in the way of a plan but very much in the way of protest that we must be able to better than we are doing. I do not find that any more admirable than corruption. I'd rather be under the command of a shrewd crook than that of a blind idealist, though if possible I'd pitch the pair of them overboard and take command myself.

(/rant) more later.

Vagabond what your saying about democrats is pretty true but hey Republicans make a plan. yeah. Like a REALLY STUPID ONE. I mean like (I find this sooooo annoying) the way bush makes a plan is he gives the public and press a lie or some stupid thing like "bring em on" and then like completely forgets what to do it is hilarious and stupid at the same time. Also sometimes his responses are so late it is just SAD especially his response to hurricane Katrina. It was like, if you noticed, 4 or 5 days late and responded with my personal favorite "a lotta cash in a little time" I mean the people who live there need more security and more medical help not more money, I mean what are they gonna do buy tickets to a game? They need like more people to help. I can't explain it. Yeah they do need more money but I mean oh I dunno.

What boils my blood is how they don't allow other political parties to debate with them...

Does this have to do with them not having the boocoo bucks?!

If money = power, then we have money that is dominating the political arena, and this is dictating our choice of who to vote for.. And at the same time, being fed the lie that voting for other parties is throwing your vote away.

Something isn't right with these two parties, yet we still elect them despite their unfairness, and evil, lying ways.

Not to mention all the conspiracies and cover ups these parties have been involved in for decades, if not centuries.

You have the 'democratic' (who usually mean the opposite of what they say) mafia and the republican (who usually mean the opposite of what they say) mafia. Take your pick

Republicans- SUpport killing everyone, but not abortion.(Texas wanted the SC executed for making it illegal to kill retards and little kids for strealing candy)
Democrats-Support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Republicans- Support Big Business but won't admit to it.
Democrat- Don't support the people but say they do.

Republicans- Say they are christian, but last I checked having sex with little boys/girls, animals, doing drugs, homosexual tendencies, basically anything immoral they do.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
And last I checked not to many Liberal Priests.....
Democrats- Actually on this they aren't that bad, they support drugs/gays, so if they do that not that bad I guess, at least not hypocritical.

Look at sig for my stance.

Democrats and Republicans are incapable of articulating new ideas to improve the political system itself. To start your political platform, I would propose 2 ideas:

1. Limitation of number of political mandates per person to 1 (one) per lifetime and per different "job". Advantages: recycling, no hogging, less corruption.
   
2. Some jobs should not be subject to election at all, but rather to random choice among all the electoral base. Advantage: no need for campaigns, no entitlements, more truly democratic.
   

Originally posted by Jestaman
Republicans- SUpport killing everyone, but not abortion.(Texas wanted the SC executed for making it illegal to kill retards and little kids for strealing candy)
Democrats-Support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Republicans- Support Big Business but won't admit to it.
Democrat- Don't support the people but say they do.

Republicans- Say they are christian, but last I checked having sex with little boys/girls, animals, doing drugs, homosexual tendencies, basically anything immoral they do.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
And last I checked not to many Liberal Priests.....
Democrats- Actually on this they aren't that bad, they support drugs/gays, so if they do that not that bad I guess, at least not hypocritical.

Look at sig for my stance.

Let me just say that we (Democrats) support MEDICAL drugs not illegal. We support people by giving them the medical help they need, not sucking their money away with WAY unfair taxes. I mean all Democrats want to do is make it FAIR. So that when the little Republican idiots go home, they don't get away with 'stealing from poor to give to rich'.

Okay I just realized that that is why I hate Republicans.

I hate em because they always try to bend the rules. Including taxes. Also trying to get away with just not working and inheriting it all from dead parents that they killed. Oh and also the LAW. I mean they pay and they win. I hate it! They pay for the best lawyers and they win even though they are guilty (like michael jackson).

my gripe will always be with winner take all states rules in elections and the 2 party system.

lobbying and PACs run second on my list.

and the horiztontal integration manuvering of NGOs (trilatariabergers). I think their meetings should be forced public or that no one in a fed position should attend (yeah good luck on that).

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist06
Let me just say that we (Democrats) support MEDICAL drugs not illegal. We support people by giving them the medical help they need, not sucking their money away with WAY unfair taxes.

Well that's a completely fair statement if I ever saw one.
*harkens to the anticipated roar of 'here-here' from everyone who has never had their taxes raised by a democrat.*
*keeps listening*
*strains*
Um... I think somebody dropped a pin.

I mean all Democrats want to do is make it FAIR. So that when the little Republican idiots go home, they don't get away with 'stealing from poor to give to rich'.

Nonsense. If there's anybody in American politics who would know fair if it reached up and ripped his family jewels off, I haven't heard of him. When did income redistribution become fair in any form, regardless of who gets it? Both parties do it. I submit to you that this past June when I was out shoveling rocks, maintaining conveyor systems, and running heavy equipment in an aggregate mine for a good wage because I'd taken the initiative to learn a trade, that it was patently unfair for even one cent of my income to be taxed and then spent on daycare subsidies for people who can't be troubled to either go out and get a real job or at least put a condom on before they screw somebody who they aren't prepared to raise a family with. What difference does it make to me whether my taxes go to them or to Dick Cheney's friends? Either way still leaves me working like a dog and taking home only about 70% of what I earned while somebody else waits at home for a check they didn't earn, compliments of good ol' hard workin', tax payin' Vagabond.

I have no problem with criticizing Republicans. I explicitly asked people what their beef with the parties is, and that's all well and good. What I'm objecting to though is that somebody could actually fall into the partisan trap and defend the man stealing from their left pocket while attacking the man who steals from their right pocket.

Only two things...

Those politicians who are intolerant of other's cultures...and the dutch.

I dislike irrationality.
More specifically the use of scapegoats and hot button non-issues poisoning America.

even more Specifically
Gun control
Abortion
Family values
the drug war
Immigrants
Criminals.

They are all feel good issues that politicians touch upon to build up support yet have very little real bearing on reality and too often amount to nothing more then the playing to of peoples fears.

I also dislike feel good responses to serious issues facing America.
For example
public Pedophile watch lists
the lapsed Assault weapons ban
toothless environmental laws
toothless workplace safety laws
The TSA (good concept flawed application)
basicaly any piece of legislation that is advertised as being the solution to our problems but in the end accomplishes nothing. Nothing other then giving the public a false sense of security at any rate.

IMH the closer people get to office the less common sense they have. A perfect example none of the major partys in NZ are putting foward the idea of a mass transit system. There isnt enough middle ground most people arent extremists although this appears to effect american politics more then any other countries politics. Idealism seem to overide reality a sure recipe for disater.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist06
Let me just say that we (Democrats) support MEDICAL drugs not illegal. We support people by giving them the medical help they need, not sucking their money away with WAY unfair taxes.

Well that's a completely fair statement if I ever saw one.
*harkens to the anticipated roar of 'here-here' from everyone who has never had their taxes raised by a democrat.*
*keeps listening*
*strains*
Um... I think somebody dropped a pin.

I mean all Democrats want to do is make it FAIR. So that when the little Republican idiots go home, they don't get away with 'stealing from poor to give to rich'.

Nonsense. If there's anybody in American politics who would know fair if it reached up and ripped his family jewels off, I haven't heard of him. When did income redistribution become fair in any form, regardless of who gets it? Both parties do it. I submit to you that this past June when I was out shoveling rocks, maintaining conveyor systems, and running heavy equipment in an aggregate mine for a good wage because I'd taken the initiative to learn a trade, that it was patently unfair for even one cent of my income to be taxed and then spent on daycare subsidies for people who can't be troubled to either go out and get a real job or at least put a condom on before they screw somebody who they aren't prepared to raise a family with. What difference does it make to me whether my taxes go to them or to Dick Cheney's friends? Either way still leaves me working like a dog and taking home only about 70% of what I earned while somebody else waits at home for a check they didn't earn, compliments of good ol' hard workin', tax payin' Vagabond.

I have no problem with criticizing Republicans. I explicitly asked people what their beef with the parties is, and that's all well and good. What I'm objecting to though is that somebody could actually fall into the partisan trap and defend the man stealing from their left pocket while attacking the man who steals from their right pocket.

No this is what I mean.

yes democrats tax...

Everyone

but Republicans don't tax themselves and just everyone else. So THEY have to raise the tax on the poorer people, so THEY don't have to pay.

What would you rather have? taxes to everybody? or taxes do eveyone except the richest top 2% of the untied states? (yes 2% not exagerating)

*wait a second they have WAY more money

*I only have 15,000 a year?

* um how is that far?

* they have 2 million and I have 15,000

*hmmm...
*

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist06
but Republicans don't tax themselves and just everyone else. So THEY have to raise the tax on the poorer people, so THEY don't have to pay.

What would you rather have? taxes to everybody? or taxes do eveyone except the richest top 2% of the untied states? (yes 2% not exagerating)

First of all, you imply, incorrectly, that all republicans are rich. Not so. Then you apparently suggest that the richest 2% of the population aren't paying taxes. Let's see some data please.

Also, what would you propose exactly? Tax the holy hell out of the people who control the capital for business ventures? Suppose that I take out a good 30 grand in student loans to put myself through school, put in ungodly hours for years scratching my way to the top of a company by sheer wit and grit, and now at long last I'm making like $250,000 a year.

Now I've got a big choice in front of me. I'm happy where I am- I'm making plenty. But you know, if I go out on a limb and risk that money, I can start a business and god willing make a couple of million dollars so that I don't ever have to be worried about finances again, and so that my kids will absolutely go to good schools and have a shot at whatever they want to be as long as they don't blow it. Should I take the risk with my savings?
Depends how much I stand to gain. If the federal government is going to take too much of it, why should I pump capital into the economy and create jobs? I'm taking ALL of the risk, but keeping only a minority of the rewards? Forget about it.

It's not as if the democrats have never held power. The rich get richer and the poor get children no matter who the hell is in power, that much should be crystal clear to anyone who's been paying attention.

And why? Same reason for both parties. They won't let you spend your money yourself. They take your money and spend it on what they think you need, because that gives them the power, and that makes you dependent on them when election day comes.

The problem isn't that anyone isn't being taxed enough. We're all being taxed too much. The parties at some point seem to have gotten together and decided to both argue about who to tax, instead of addressing the obvious answer of cutting spending.

Big spending is a joke. We wouldn't need to argue about raising taxes on the rich to provide programs for the poor if we just cut those programs and cut the taxes across the board accordingly, because if the poor were getting to keep their incomes so that they could afford to own rather than rent they would be able to accumulate wealth, build credit, open up financial opportunities for themselves, and then they wouldn't be the poor anymore.

vagabond has a good point. 10% for everyone is completely fair and still gives incentives for rich to get rich. progressive taxes tell us that the government rather than capital movers should re-invest the proceeds of a market economy. The real problem that needs to be addressed is the private loans of fractionalized banking if your worried about private enterprise re-investing the wealth gain.

the only beef i have with rich people taxes is that a lot of them funnel them thru bogus (or even non bogus) charities and foundations that only further their own interests. i think that the money that IS collected in taxes should go to the legitimate functions of government (infrastructure, defense, law, trade regulations) and are not negotiable (oh i made a decision to redirect this to charity).

if we had a no deductions flat tax, 2% of rich people would pay the same taxes as everyone else.

Originally posted by The Vagabond




First of all, you imply, incorrectly, that all republicans are rich. Not so. Then you apparently suggest that the richest 2% of the population aren't paying taxes. Let's see some data please.

Also, what would you propose exactly? Tax the holy hell out of the people who control the capital for business ventures? Suppose that I take out a good 30 grand in student loans to put myself through school, put in ungodly hours for years scratching my way to the top of a company by sheer wit and grit, and now at long last I'm making like $250,000 a year.

Now I've got a big choice in front of me. I'm happy where I am- I'm making plenty. But you know, if I go out on a limb and risk that money, I can start a business and god willing make a couple of million dollars so that I don't ever have to be worried about finances again, and so that my kids will absolutely go to good schools and have a shot at whatever they want to be as long as they don't blow it. Should I take the risk with my savings?
Depends how much I stand to gain. If the federal government is going to take too much of it, why should I pump capital into the economy and create jobs? I'm taking ALL of the risk, but keeping only a minority of the rewards? Forget about it.

It's not as if the democrats have never held power. The rich get richer and the poor get children no matter who the hell is in power, that much should be crystal clear to anyone who's been paying attention.

And why? Same reason for both parties. They won't let you spend your money yourself. They take your money and spend it on what they think you need, because that gives them the power, and that makes you dependent on them when election day comes.

The problem isn't that anyone isn't being taxed enough. We're all being taxed too much. The parties at some point seem to have gotten together and decided to both argue about who to tax, instead of addressing the obvious answer of cutting spending.

Big spending is a joke. We wouldn't need to argue about raising taxes on the rich to provide programs for the poor if we just cut those programs and cut the taxes across the board accordingly, because if the poor were getting to keep their incomes so that they could afford to own rather than rent they would be able to accumulate wealth, build credit, open up financial opportunities for themselves, and then they wouldn't be the poor anymore.

Look, the government (for califorinia) is pretty bad. I mean we're governed by an actor and we're having this stupid "specail ballot" for NO REASON. I mean he's just distracting us from other things like...

Education

Republicans and many demorcrats (but not all) say that we need to raise the education so that we are better than other countries, but neither party seems to be willing to spend money on that subject.

Also border control

Only Democrats seem to be worried about this and when ever Kerry asked Bush about border control. He changed the subject and said that it wasn't a problem at all.

In Conclusion we need to pay taxes eventually otherwise the state won't have any money. Now I agree taxes are stupid, especially since when you make 600$ like it goes down to like 100$ but 500$ stays where it is, you get to keep it. makes no sense at all. it's pretty dumb. We need to spend money on things our state needs, but I hope we can agree NOT to give it to big buisnesses. I mean that makes no sense either. Giving a major buisness company like Pepsi more free stuff even though they are already a rich company.

Conspiracy Theorist, this conversation between you and I is over. If you have elected to commit your loyalty and your interests to one of the parties that is your call. I am sorry for your sake, but I'm glad at least that you are blissful in your choice. I for one will not debase myself by any further defense of a party which I do not support simply for the sake of countering your unquestioning support of the Democratic party.

Enjoy your two party system. I hope it responds to your needs. If you begin to come around though, you may find me on a ballot some years down the road as your 3rd option.