I imagine Gaddafi won't be overly thrilled, either.

Specially after paying $8m each to the families of the survivors....

...a fragment of a circuit board from a timing device, was planted by the CIA.

Which makes CIA an International Terrorist Organiztion by the Definition.

But I guess CIA is "Allowed" to do such actions, since Terrorism is a Label that is not put on any western organizations or individuals.

Originally posted by Souljah
...a fragment of a circuit board from a timing device, was planted by the CIA.

Which makes CIA an International Terrorist Organiztion by the Definition.

But I guess CIA is "Allowed" to do such actions, since Terrorism is a Label that is not put on any western organizations or individuals.

Once again, your blind hatred for the United States has caused you to jump to conclusions. Assuming the CIA actually did plant evidence there, which I've yet to see any legitimate evidence supporting such an accusation, that doesn't make them complicit in the bombing itself.

Now let me tell you a story for the sake of comparison. Say I'm a detective investigating a murder. Now, I know with almost complete certainty who the murderer actually is. Unfortunately, there is no evidence at the scene to corroborate my theory and make cause for arrest of the suspect. Now, if I planted a hair belonging to the suspect at the scene of the crime (or similar piece of evidence), then I could use that to make an arrest and hopefully get a conviction. That doesn't make me a murderer. That just makes me a dirty cop.

Similarly, this doesn't make the CIA "terrorists." I hate to knock you off your high horse, but some of us conspiracy buffs on here still require a little-known thing called "EVIDENCE" before we jump to conclusions or point fingers.

Right now you just have the accusations of a person who hasn't even given their name. You have absolutely no idea how credible this person is. Yet, because it appears to support your claims of how evil America is, you're more than happy to take this anonymous person's word. What a joke!

Rasputin, did you even read the story and try to cooraborate any of the other accusations in it? Like Thurman, the man who identified the circuit board has been found to be a fraud on many occasions. How about a former CIA agent also stating Planted Evidence. I cross referenced alot of those accusations and found more than one supporting source. So maybe before u bash people by "knocking them off their hi horse" you will read and do a little investigation of your own. Not the first time ive seen this said to you dude...maybe u need to come down off of "Your HI Horse". The CIA has proven time and time again to be a very un trust worthy gov agency. Political Coups/Assassinations, Drug Running are amongst the many EVIDENCES that have mounted against them. And before you go attempting to speak for me(those of us who like evidence) Id prefer i speak for myself because i can find other sources and informations without being handheld with provided links. Its Not blind USA Hatred. Its an informed Level of consciencness that helps me to decide what needs to be done. I love my country, i dont love your government.

Nice find BTW Hellmutt

[edit on 28-8-2005 by S1LV3R4D0]

Congratulations! You figured out the Big Secret! There are no terrorists! It's all the Americans the pesky CIA! We're just out to kill as many people as we can, even when it doesn't benefit anyone! We're trying to take over the world and kill as many non-Americans as we can!

The fact that the Police chief who originally gave evidence regarding the piece of circuit board is only open to speculation, which to me ,says that there is some kind of scapegoat mongering going on.

After all these years, why would that suddenly be announced? Something is not right with this statement, or investigation, which I'm not sure, but ended a while ago anyways.

I really don't think this information will hurt the CIA's reputation too much. Given that it hasn't had one for a long time now.

What a joke! Show me some PROOF that the CIA was responsible for the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, and I'll shut up. I'm not talking about any he-said she-said stuff from 15 years later. I'm talking about actual EVIDENCE. Not "unnamed sources." Not links to geocities websites created by Thom in Hamburgh, either.

Souljah said that because of Pan Am Flight 103, the CIA can now be labeled as terrorists. All that I'm asking is for the proof. Not the proof regarding CIA involvement in assassinations, coups, Nicaragua, Cuba, Afghanistan, and so on. That's just an attempt to change the subject at hand. Regardless of what you think you know about me, which in reality is absolutely nothing, I have an open mind. I know the CIA has blood on their hands. I know they've done a lot of things that looking back now were the wrong thing to do, and even were the wrong thing to do at the time. I'm not going to excuse their actions, but I will say that we're not living in a Utopia here. Sometimes you have to do some really ugly things, usually to some really ugly people, when you think it's in the best interests of the American people and/or the American government.

All that I'm saying is to show me the evidence that the CIA was responsible for the bombing of Pan Am 103. And I want real evidence... not Rense.com or India Daily. I realize that an absense of evidence does not mean an absense of guilt on the CIA's part. They very well could have been behind the bombing. If so, I'll be glad to call them a terrorist organization. But at this point I've yet to see an ounce of credible evidence supporting such a theory. Yes, I've seen evidence that they've done some horrible and dirty things. But that isn't what this thread is about. Call me a hypocrite. Call me whatever you want. But until you produce some real evidence, then I think you should withdrawl your labeling of the CIA as a terrorist organization with regards to the Pan Am attacks. I think you should take back your insinuations and slanderous statements.

Now, if you'll produce some legitimate evidence then I will admit you were right. I'm an honorable person. Being a proud American and a Conservative, regardless of what you think, does not make me a bad person. It does not make me a moron. It does not make me "brainwashed." I just happen to love my country and support it's actions. So show me the proof that the CIA blew up this airliner, or take your bashing elsewhere!

And, please, let's try to do this with some level of class. I'm assuming that you all read the recent ATS Mods' posts about partisan bickering and other forms of member-bashing. Let's try and have an intelligent debate. I apologize if I came off the wrong way in my last post. Souljah knows that I have no problem with him personally. I think he's a very good guy. I just think his views are a little misplaced, and he's too quick to blame the USA on many occasions. He knows that I stand by my claims that he ignores the atrocities and crimes, which often are far greater in magnitude and death than any the US is responsible for, committed by other nations and/or terrorist organizations. That's all, folks!

Originally posted by Souljah
Which makes CIA an International Terrorist Organiztion by the Definition.

???
HOw? And , er, if you were really concerned about terrorism, wouldnt' you be concerned with who did this if not libya??


Either way this is pretty deplorable if it happened. With the soviets gone, the CIA might've outlived its usefulness.

Originally posted by Souljah
...a fragment of a circuit board from a timing device, was planted by the CIA.

Which makes CIA an International Terrorist Organiztion by the Definition.

But I guess CIA is "Allowed" to do such actions, since Terrorism is a Label that is not put on any western organizations or individuals.

Indeed.... C'est hypocrisy!

I was reading up on 'false flag terrorism' and this case was actually in their points of fact.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
After all these years, why would that suddenly be announced? Something is not right with this statement, or investigation, which I'm not sure, but ended a while ago anyways.

I agree, and a very similar statement of questionable premise is contained in the posted article.

But Esson, who retired in 1994, questioned the officer's motives. He said: "Any police officer who believed they had knowledge of any element of fabrication in any criminal case would have a duty to act on that. Failure to do so would call into question their integrity, and I can't help but question their motive for raising the matter now." (emphasis added).

Throughout the entire history of these ‘trials’, ‘appeals’ and ‘investigations’ everyone form the CIA, MI6, Iran, Palestine, Malta, Israel, Libya etc etc etc….have been accused of some level of culpability by the defense concerning the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 at different times. Now this, just more shades of gray and no definitive proof.



.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
What a joke! Show me some PROOF that the CIA was responsible for the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, and I'll shut up.

Colour me wronglypurpled, but that's not the claim, is it?

The allegation is that the CIA planted evidence - not that they actually orchestrated and/or carried out the bombing itself, non?

Before this gets muddied any further, it'd probably be prudent to actually sort the wheat from the chaffe in terms of what is and isn't being alleged here.

I am amazed at how easy it is for an UNNAMED source 16 years after the fact to get American hating, CIA despising conspiracy junkies to believe him. Please, show me ONE SHRED of evidence. Just one. Hell, give me ONE SINGLE SOLITARY NAMED SOURCE that will back this guy!

Or, conversly, does this mean every time I can find an unnamed source that says whatever pushes my agenda, I can post it on ATS and have everyone that shares my agenda treat it as fact? I guess me and the rest of my oil greedy, blood hungry, evil American loving bretheren should start posting every cockamamy thing that comes up on google.

I mean, do I really need to make the whole middle east look that bad? I could of course, but I won't because only an IDIOT would get so worked up over a single unnamed source.

This thread has been around for several hours now and only has 15 replies to it (mine included). I don't see anybody getting worked up over this news as of yet.

The article says that if and when another trial starts, this former officer will have to become a named person. So we'll just have to wait and see how far it goes.

Why would there be another trial? They had a trial, they convicted people for it, and reached a settlement. I doubt we'll see another trial.

Why does a conspiracy forum, a place for discussion and research, always have people demanding direct and absolute proof of, for example CIA involvement when if that was even possible, the CIA would neither be a secret organisation, nor would they have any kind of security in dealing with much more organised groups than some people on a website forum?

Why not email Karl Rove? He's in the business of revealing CIA names, maybe he could give you some names of covert agents which don't exist on public record?

Otherwise, use the Sherlock method and take all the fragmented pieces and put together the puzzle to get the full picture, then you'll have your case but please understand that when people post on this forum, they often do so because research helps gather those pieces. To void a piece of information you must present alternative information, not simply say 'it's not good enough, show me the proof' because in itself, it's not absolute proof in exposing the full picture.

9/11 is a classic. People believe there is/isn't a conspiracy because of just 1 element of a situation which is made up of thousands of elements. If there were no bombs in the buildings or a plane did hit the Pentagon, most valid research has proven that won't change the facts of who was really involved in that attack being successfull. Deny Ignorance to me means look at the past, present, future while working out the why's, how's and who's.

Waiting for a name or a hard piece of evidence to appear on ATS is going to keep you all waiting for a long long time, so it's pretty pointless to just jump a thread to dismiss it out of hand because the information presented isn't enough for a Grand Jury to bring down America's biggest and most secret agencies.

I wouldn't think ATS would exist for very long if it was capable of exposing CIA involvement in terrorist activities before any form of press was able to.




[edit on 29-8-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

No surprises there. Lybia was the scapegoat.. as we needed an excuse to bomb them in time for the 6 o'clock news (yes the bombing of lybia was timed for the 6 o'clock news in the US.. a first in history!).

No wonder the evidence was planted... also not the verdict in the case held in camp Zeist in the Netherlands. A scottish judge has 3 verdicts at his disposal (yes scottish law is unique) guilty.. not guilty... and not proven. Ths third verdict is for cases whare there is not enough evidence... but will allow for a retrial where as the not guilty does not.

The verdice in Zeist for the two suspects, in a case where the evidence was so dodgy?
One was found guilty the ohter not. Now what message does that send?

They were being accused of the same crime with the same evidence.. seems the Judges realize what the show was about and convicted one as was their duty but had to free the other as not to completely pervert the course of justice.


Another great ruse at the time was the shooting of the police woman outside the Lybian embassy in London.

A beautiful (prolly the most beatiful policewoman ever!!) was assasinated outside the lybian embassy, alledgedly shot by a sniper from the Embassy itself. Result: We need to bomb lybia.
NO ONE and i MEAN NO ONE snipes from their own embassy window especially if they want to get away with it, unless it was part of lybian foregn/domestic ploicy to get bombed on the 6 o'clock news.





[edit on 29/8/2005 by Corinthas]

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Similarly, this doesn't make the CIA "terrorists." I hate to knock you off your high horse, but some of us conspiracy buffs on here still require a little-known thing called "EVIDENCE" before we jump to conclusions or point fingers.

Wait your looking for evidence that the CIA is a terror organization?

The whole of latin america is proof enough! Get real man!