Is anyone familier with Jonathan Gray and his discoveries?

Originally posted by Master Wu
Brown's Gas - do a search on that and im sure you will find something. Basicly, if memory serves, a man named Mr. "blank" Brown in the late 1800's / early 1900's discovered that when mixing hydrogen and oxygen in certain (or exact) proportions that it created an extremely hot burning flame similar to a lazer beam. Hydrogen and oxygen (as we all know) is what comprises the elemental composite of water. This flame that was produced did not have a 'heat aura' - ie. it did not give off any radiant heat (one could put their finger very close to the flame and not feel any heat). Also, and this is the most important reason of why i bring it up - it could cut stone with extreme accuracy and depth. In other words, ancient man may have used Browns Gas to cut the blocks of the pyramids, the stones of teyhuanaco, lake titicaca etc... all from water.

What you call Brown's Gas is a mixture of monotomic hydrogen and monotomic oxygen (along with some diatomic molecules of both gases.) The monotomic forms would relase more energy than the diatomic when ignited.

The idea that such a flame wouldn't give off heat is pure, unadulterated fantasy.

This gaseous mixture is generated through a specialized electrolysis process, where heat is add to the system while the molecules of water are split electrolytically. The energy input (electrical plus heat in) is greater than the energy output of the flame (of course.)

It's possible to cut stone with a high temperature flame. Extremely doubtful that such technology existed before the present day, there is absolutely no evidence of it. Additionally, it is an established fact that most of the monuments left from ancient times were carved the old fashioned way, chisels, drills and saws. Tools leave marks, you know. Some gigantic stones cannot be verified as to the nature of the method that shaped them, but in those cases it is extremely likely that erosion has erased the tool marks. Plus, melting through stone would leave an easily recognizeable pattern behind on the stone, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Master Wu
Also, things like the ancient (working) battery found in iraq. The ancient bones and footprints, word of mouth legends of tribal societies passed down from generation to generation... the list is actually endless.

Actually, the battery you mention may have been used for electrolysis. Or maybe for gold or silver plating (a similar process).

Ancient bones and footprints, when found to be genuine, are taken into account in modern archaeological theory. That is, there are no ancient bones or footprints that do not fit into modern theory.

The list is not endless in the least. In fact there are no "out of place artifacts" that have not been explained or absorbed into current theory.

Harte

Jonathan Grey is a psudoscientist. He never does any true reaserch for himself. He bends and manipulates the current evidence to suit his belief, and tries to convince other people to believe what he believes, that sums it up. He uses people's lack of understanding in the subject to get the better of them. My recommendation is not to pick up what he says, people like him prey on gullable people. He even charges thousands for people to tag along on his excursions. He is a liar like all the other psudoscientists out there, he's not doing it for the sake of science, he's doing it for the money.

Harte

What about the prefectly formed air vents inside the pyramids, they would not have subjected much erosion. Neither do the giant stones inside the great pyramid i saw on a BBC documentory. Even the presenter could not figure out how the prescision and enlinement was. These also have not eroded as they are inside being protected by the elements.

Master WU

I have been trying to say in another thread to do with the sphins paw about the fact that this life is an illusion as we are made out of atoms. The universe does indeed pulsate. Finding the right frequency of wave or paulsations will affect and manipulate atoms to move around. Like throwing a stone on water. By cracking this sound vibration it is plausable to breakdown matter and atoms and move atoms via vibration hence being able to move objects such as 6000 tone stones.

Read : Bill Bryson a short history of everything, it will explain things better than i can.

There is a good website on Coral Castle about the possiblilty of stones being levitated.

www.labyrinthina.com...

The statues with the pistols, now that is unexplainable. I have seen photo's in Erich von Danikens book "In search of the Gods" They are clearly holding Guns or RAY GUNS as Erich claims. I'd like someone to debunk that!

Who said about plastics? Jonathun Gray talks about floods and lava, if he is genuine, there are no ancient plastics because it would have melted in the lava. I don't no if you can carbonedate plastic?

Maybe this guy is out to get money off vunerable people but whoever said he doesn't do his own research is mistaken. He presents his own work on the video's, he does his own archeological digs, i think if it wasn't his own work people would be sueing by now and we certainly no about it so i feel it is unafair to say that.

Oh the chinese map website, it isn't a referance from Dead man's secrets but i thought i'd research the link myself and came across that site. I will have a look at Dead mans secrets again about the maps and see if there is any claimes of evidance in the book. I will also be more specific on who mapped antartica before and after the ice.

[edit on 05012005 by Earth Angel]

Originally posted by Earth Angel
Harte

What about the prefectly formed air vents inside the pyramids, they would not have subjected much erosion. Neither do the giant stones inside the great pyramid i saw on a BBC documentory. Even the presenter could not figure out how the prescision and enlinement was. These also have not eroded as they are inside being protected by the elements.

What you are calling air vents were built in to the pyramid, not cut through after the pyramid was built.

Also, you are quite correct that the stones inside the pyramids have been protected from erosion. That is why to this day we can still see the tool marks left on them from when they were quarried and dressed.

Originally posted by Earth AngelThe statues with the pistols, now that is unexplainable. I have seen photo's in Erich von Danikens book "In search of the Gods" They are clearly holding Guns or RAY GUNS as Erich claims. I'd like someone to debunk that!

I wouldn't put much stock in anything von Daniken says. Not only is he a convicted forger, he has actually admitted to forging some evidence to support his "ancient astronaut" theory:

Where is the proof for von Däniken's claims? Some of it was fraudulent. For example, he produced photographs of pottery that he claimed had been found in an archaeological dig. The pottery depicts flying saucers and was said to have been dated from Biblical times. However, investigators from Nova (the fine public-television science program) found the potter who had made the allegedly ancient pots. They confronted von Däniken with evidence of his fraud. His reply was that his deception was justified because some people would only believe if they saw proof ("The Case of the Ancient Astronauts," first aired 3/8/78, done in conjunction with BBC's Horizon and Peter Spry-Leverton)!

From: Skepdic.com

Harte

My Business partner has a old vhs tape probably from the 80's that shows a demostration of brown's gas. I would have to look at it again, if I stilll have it. I seem to remember that it was in Australia somewhere. I have no idea of any of his claims but in the video they did cut through a fairly thick metal plate with ease and they did some demos of the lack of heat, something like cutting through something than having the path of the cutter pass a hand or lab coat. Like I said its an old video and very hard to hear or watch. I remember it left me scratching my head when watching it.
Just looked on web real quick, here is a site that talks about it, some videos and pictures.
www.brownsgas.com...

Looks like they are selling the video I am talking about for $35.00. Maybe I should find that video and sell it LOL!!

If it was such a great idea however, how come it is not is widespread use?

Harte,

I saw the stones on the documentory and you could not see the tool marks they where very smooth stones. I no the air vents where built into the stone before the pyramids went up by it still doesn't explain how the air shafts are so smooth with again no evidence of tool marks and having been protected from erosion as they are inside. Even the presenter of the bbc documentory could not explain it. They showed a close up of the stones. Ok I haven't been there and seen them for myself but I am very clear as to what I saw on the documentory.

As for Erich Von Daniken, SOME of his work maybe fraudulent but here is a picture of the statues with guns as master mu mentiones. I have also heard that lazer technology must have been used as the only plausable explination to cut and carve certain stones. Not all of them granted.

The crystal skulls is one great example i can think of. Even with today's technology we can not duplicate genuine crystal skulls. That is still a world renowned mystery.

dudeman.net...

Here is something else on the Shan Hai King Documents

www.texancultures.utsa.edu...

It basically says that everything looks co-incidental but what it doesn't mention is the cave writtings. Denise Tagg a linguist stated that you can see carvings of a chinese dragon. They left 241 sequences of symbols and geomectric signs on every continent..She claimes the symbols where repeated and where left as signs and guides for others to follow. They were people of interlect not barbaric nomads.

Also the Peri Reis map 15 13 was a COPY of a map PRE-DATING 5000 years according to the HYDROGRAPHICS OFFICE AT THE US NAVY. It has not only been proved genuine it has been used to correct presant day maps. Reis maps are copies from 20 ancient maps from ancestors who surveyed coastlines on a worldwide baises..

Antartica maps....... Zauche map of 1737 shows antartica free of ice although Antartica was unknown of until 1819 according to Jacob Wajsmann as pre history student. It highlighted not one, but two islands separeated by a strait going fall the way from Ross Sea to the Wedell.
(A fact that was not confirmed until 1968)

The Grantius Fineus map of 1531 detailed Antartica as it was about to fill up with Ice.

Reinaissance maps of the dating back to the cave man era



Reinaissance and medievil map makers said they copied thier maps from an unknown source and origions.

Others examples are Hadji Ahmed map copied in 1559 depicts the land bridge that once stood between siberia and Alaska.

Andrea Benincasa map 1508, Lehundi I bn Zara map of 1487. The Hamy King Chart 1502. are more examples but i am not going tinto them all as you get the idea i am sure by now!.

Oh Okay then just one more! Zeno map 1380 from the medievil period is one of 14 that accuratly outlines the coasts of Sweden, Norway, Scotland and Germany also containing the exact latitude and longitude.

Paul Heron a mathematician stated the chronometer necessary to get an exact longitude measurement hadn't been invented until 1765. The Zero map was confirmed accurate by Phill Corderoy a Cartographer. The Greenland topography was free of glaciers as it had been before then ice age. Rivers unkown as well as mountains unknown have since been located by a French polar expidition in 1947 -1949 as being providing evidance of the maps authentisity!.

Denise Tagg pointed out also that in the medievil times, people thought the earth was flat. However a Chinese Map on stone dating 1137 was formed on a spherical grid.. Also the Camerio map of 1502 uses the very same grid.

The above sources on such maps came from "Dead Man's Secrets"

Originally posted by Earth Angel
Harte,
I saw the stones on the documentory and you could not see the tool marks they where very smooth stones. I no the air vents where built into the stone before the pyramids went up by it still doesn't explain how the air shafts are so smooth with again no evidence of tool marks and having been protected from erosion as they are inside. Even the presenter of the bbc documentory could not explain it. They showed a close up of the stones. Ok I haven't been there and seen them for myself but I am very clear as to what I saw on the documentory.

Usually when a documentary wishes to impress, it pans the camera to the most impressive area, scene-wise. In this case, the absolutely smoothest area of stone surface would be shown.

Please remember stones exhibit a characteristic called "cleavage" (sounds sexy, I know, but believe me it's really, really boring.) This means that the right blow with the right tool in the right spot can dress several square feet of a stone's surface, with the tool only touching the edge of the dressed area. What I mean here is that the entire surface of the stone need not have been scraped smooth. If one is acquainted with the stone of a particular quarry site, then it's usually pretty easy to dress the face of a rectangular stone without getting tool marks all over it.

Look at it this way, if there were only one or two stones in the pyramid that showed tool marks, that would be enough to show that every stone was cut with hand tools. Why? Because why would you cut some by hand and the rest with your magic ray gun?

Originally posted by Earth AngelAs for Erich Von Daniken, SOME of his work maybe fraudulent but here is a picture of the statues with guns as master mu mentiones. I have also heard that lazer technology must have been used as the only plausable explination to cut and carve certain stones. Not all of them granted.

I'm not seeing any weaponry at all on any statue at that site. Nor do I see any claim that they are there, except here from you. What I do see are ridiculous interpretations of well-known and long ago explained artifacts.

I went to the site you posted, so here's one for you to visit:

Egyptian Mysteries

If you browse this site, it will explain away many of the psuedohistorian's claims (like those of von Daniken). The result will be a less exciting world for you, but everyone eventually must face the truth.

Originally posted by Earth AngelThe crystal skulls is one great example i can think of. Even with today's technology we can not duplicate genuine crystal skulls. That is still a world renowned mystery.

The only mysteries about the crystal skulls is exactly who their 18th century maker was, did he intend them to be used in a hoax, and did he make all of the skulls.

Where on Earth did you get this "even with today's technology.." bull?

Harte

I think what he meant about the today's techology is that the skulls were carved "against the grain" so to speak, and that this is a process that usually ends up with the piece of crystal breaking apart. I think he's saying that even today, we can't carve crystal against the grain very easily. Now, I don't know this for fact, just have read it...makes a kind of sense, though...

Originally posted by FibroKat
I think what he meant about the today's techology is that the skulls were carved "against the grain" so to speak, and that this is a process that usually ends up with the piece of crystal breaking apart. I think he's saying that even today, we can't carve crystal against the grain very easily. Now, I don't know this for fact, just have read it...makes a kind of sense, though...

Okay, you've convinced me that I need to put up or shut up:

The skull is supposed to have been found on top of a pyramid, which is inherently unlikely. It was not even found during the British Museum’s excavations (had it been, it would now be in the Museum’s stores), but seems to have been acquired by Mitchell-Hedges in circumstances that he never made clear. There is, in fact, strong evidence that it was bought for £400 at a sale by Sotheby’s, London, in 1943, from Sidney Burney, the owner of an art gallery. Allegedly, he had hoped to be buried with the object, but his adopted daughter Anna held on to it.

And

None of the lifelike crystal skulls has ever been found in adequately documented circumstances, nor have any ever been found indisputably in ancient deposits. A 1996 study of several examples by the British Museum indicated that they were made recently, probably in Germany and certainly after the mid-nineteenth century. The Smithsonian Institution discovered that a number of the crystal skulls supposed to be of ancient Mesoamerican origin can be traced back to Eugène Boban, a Frenchman who dealt in antiques in Mexico City between 1860 and 1880. He seems to have obtained the skulls from a source in Germany. There is no evidence at all that any of these realistic skulls is anything other than modern. This does not necessarily mean that they are not ancient, and even if at least some of them are, there is nothing about them that suggests that they could not have been made centuries ago.

From: Cult Archaeology

From the above qoute, I see that even a skeptic like myself is guilty of backdating these skulls (I believe I said something about 18th century in a previous post.)

There's more about the skulls at the site I linked, if interested. I also have another site or two that further debunk this nonsense people keep bringing up about these skulls. If anyone want's a link, let me know here.

Harte

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by Byrd
You need to do some research on his claims... look into both sides. Many of us have, and we've found him pretty lacking.

Yes, we could do that, or since you are posting your own claims, maybe you can provide some resources or facts behind your opinions.

Just use the search feature.

I've seen Byrd rape this guy and his views so many times in the last 6months, it's not even funny anymore.

I understand the bit about fringe writters trying to exagerate things but according to the Cystal Skulls book, even the British museam where silenced after doing there own dating of the objects.

Yes they dated afew to being fairy modernish but then did'nt comment on two of the skulls. They became very un-cooperative all of a suddent which left more questions to be answered. The utter silence is just wiered!

I understand what you are saying about the stones. I have slate comming from wales and the majority of the slate is smooth but it still doesn't explain the giant 6000 ton stone. If you chissel it it would snap and fracture and would be extremely rough and bumpy and you would see the tool marks all over. How are the stones in perfect measerments and alignenments without being a bit thinner here or a bit fatter at the bottom compared to the next stone if you get me. It's almost like they used moulds or something. Na i am sorry it is still weired

reply to post by Harte


Read Forbidden Archeology by Michael A Cremo and stop living in the sand box. Join the rest of the world!

Heck this thread is from 2005....but still relevant today in 2011. I've just been watching some videos on You Tube

It's far too simplistic to dismiss Gray & his theories as a Pseudoscientist. I'm not saying he is totally right, but if you look at the work of people like Gray, Graham Hancock & Michael Cremo & many others, they do bring to our attention the OOPARTS - Out of Place Artifacts, that throw into question the "accepted" history of mankind.

The combined evidence of global similarities of ancient civilisations like Sumeria & Egypt & their antiquities, the earthwide memory of a global flood in both oral and written testimony. Ancient source maps reproduced by Middle Age cartographers that seem to show a different world. Cities being found underwater, this evidence along with countless more is all powerful evidence that the Genesis account of Creation and it's explanation of the spread of mankind post flood should not be dismissed summarily.

A simple trip to for instance the British Museum can yield much evidence being avaiable that actually proves the Bible to have authenticity time and time again, yet how many people know this?

What I find disturbing is the number of times that evidence is being not only dismissed but it seems deliberately supressed. Evidence like the Crystal Skull, the Antikythera Mechanism, Bones & skulls found in coal streams that mainstream labs refuse eg Smithsonian Institute to investigate......Polystrate fossils - that transcend many layers of rock strata..... evidence of strata laying down very quickly after catastrophes like Mount St Helens. The massive stones that have been quarried globally such as in Lebanon, which are far too massive for any modern day lifting gear to handle, yet the ancients appear to have moved them with ease. These finds & many more like them are virtually ignored by the Evolutionist crazed Scientific world and there seems to be a mainstream conspiracy to cover this evidence up & not make it widely known.

As an outrageous example, I find it incredulous that an ancient underwater city amoungst many has been found off Japan & yet unbeleivably to date no scientist/mainstream archaeologist has been willing to do any serious research on this find!

If mainstream arcaeologists/Scientists wish to dismiss their peer's work on evidence as pseudoscience, then I'm sorry they need to research these finds in the correct manner themselves.

Gray has written about these conspiracies in his latest book apparently, although I haven't read it called " The Weapon the Globalists Fear"..... he says the March of Atheism and their mantra of Evolution is basically a lie. The conspiracy to deliberately ignore or supress evidence of our ancient technologically advanced ancestors is being perpurtrated on mankind so that we lose any moral or spiritual heritage from the past. If the intellectual majority & the masses become convinced there is nothing else but this world we become unanswerable to a non existant Creator.... Survival of the fittest therefore becomes the order of the day, without recourse to any form of moral guidance from a spiritual source.

We built our civilization on the remains of the past ones. Of course there are apocalyptic cycles and the survivors must start from the begining using primitive tools. The land that didnt went underwater still had preserved some fortress or pyramid or whatever so thats why mayans lived there. Not that they really built it. Some of the survivors fought so much between them self that they forgot everything about their ancestors, about culture some of them almost forgot how to speak because they were thinking only bout killing. Also it is important to mention that few humanoid species lived here through milleniums. They existed at the same time. Giants, smaller people, mountain people of the north ( Jeti) etc. Its apsolutely true that we are kept in dark for 2000 + years because this civilization's systems is created on monotheistic personificated religion. If they give official confirmation about atlantis, lemuria, mu and about previous cycles we wont go to church anymore which will be their total colpase. Every human is a temple and we will rich spirituality within ourself for $ FREE.

reply to post by Earth Angel


This is the fourth epoch of man...and one day this one will fall too....

Originally posted by JB1234

Howdy JB1234

Ah I started to reply but there are so many fringe misrepresentations and out right errors in your comments above I'm unwilling to spend the hour or so to address them. Now I know you've gotten those from reading fringe websites and alternative books but I must challenge your uncritical acceptance of them.

Here is what I suggest, from the mass above select three points you feel you have sufficient evidence for and we can go from there.

As for the original posting - his ideas failed spectacularly at the start when he stated the biblical flood as fact....it kinda went down hill from there.

Originally posted by JB1234
As an outrageous example, I find it incredulous that an ancient underwater city amoungst many has been found off Japan & yet unbeleivably to date no scientist/mainstream archaeologist has been willing to do any serious research on this find!

Like Hans, I hesitate to waste any time at all on you.

However, the above is simply outrageous in and of itself.

Perhaps you should look into the veracity of a claim before you make it.

Otherwise, you look like an idiot.

Dr. Robert M. Schoch is a tenured associate professor of science and mathematics at Boston University's College of General Studies. Trained as a geologist (Ph.D. in geology and geophysics from Yale University), Schoch has done field research in the Canadian High Arctic, the western United States, Pakistan, Egypt, and most recently Japan. Dr. Schoch's latest book is entitled Voices of the Rocks: A Scientist Looks at Catastrophes and Ancient Civilizations (coauthored with Robert Aquinas McNally; Harmony, Crown Publishing Group, Random House Inc., 1999, ISBN 0-609-60369-8). In Voices of the Rocks Dr. Schoch discusses, among other things, his work on the Yonaguni Monument of Japan, the redating of the Great Sphinx, and a new interpretation of ancient history.

Dr. Masaaki Kimura, a professor in the Department of Physics and Earth Sciences at the University of the Ryukyus, Okinawa, has carried out an extensive underwater mapping project of the Yonaguni Monument. During my trips to Japan I have had the opportunity to visit with Dr. Kimura several times, both on site in Yonaguni and in his office in Okinawa. Based on his research, Dr. Kimura has espoused the view that the Yonaguni Monument is, on the whole, an artificial structure. If this is the case, then the Yonaguni Monument appears to bear testimony to a previously unknown, yet very early and highly sophisticated civilization.

The above is from a paper published by Dr. Robert Schoch.

They aren't the only mainstream scientists to have investigated that site. They're just the only two that won't come right out and say that they wasted their time.

Kimura is the world's expert on Yonaguni. He now says it was overcome by the ocean only 2,000 years ago (or so.)

Schoch's conclusion? Natural formation, which is exactly what the site is.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Actually Schoch did not conclude that Yonaguni monument was a natural formation.. what he said was.... "I am not yet absolutely convinced that it is an artificial structure - - but in my opinion, even if it is primarily natural, it may have been modified by human actions in ancient times. This enigmatic structure merits more detailed examination"....

To date that detailed examination has not taken place...since 1999. Despite many more dives being made & more footage of this underwater structure being made available.

Watching a video of divers who have dived to over 9,000 sites both man-made & natural all over the globe...in their words and the film I saw - the only explanation is that it was made by human hands. The enormous statue face that is shown on one slide & the divers said there are more than one.... reminds very much of the face of an Easter Island/Mayan figure. They are convinced as is Kimura this is is no natural structure...

What's more Yonaguni is not the only place on earth where we find evidence of undersea man made structures they are found all across the globe. Ancient maps show for example non existant islands like New Brazil off the UK coast, which simply does not exist as a land mass anymore.

If Kimura is correct, and indeed Yonaguni was flooded about 2,000 years ago, then this would kind of back up Gray's flood theory and that of the Bible, which dates the Great flood or deluge to 2345BCE, although Gray states 2370BCE.

then this would kind of back up Gray's flood theory and that of the Bible, which dates the Great flood or deluge to 2345BCE, although Gray states 2370BCE.

We have inscriptions and writings made before and after that date.....with no change of language, culture or location. You seem to have forgotten that the Indus, Sumerian, Chinese, Egyptian, Hittite and a whole bunch more civilization exist before and after that date

Sorry no flood