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Provide Witness Challenge

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posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:08 PM
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For months and months I've seen video's and non-expert statements by purported witnesses/unwilling participants in the 9/11 event at the World Trade Center.

Many express the idea that pre-placed demolition charges led to the progressive collapse of WTC 1,2 and 7.

Since several hundred people would have been involved in planning, placing and timing sqiuibs to demolish the WTC 1,2 and 7 towers without a doubt offering no disagreement as to the wide existance of a complicated conspiracy leading to the destruction of the trade center towers.

How come no one has come forward after four years claiming knowledge of an intentional demolition.

The Challenge:

Find one credible witness (IE: Participated in pre- placed charges) that corroborates a pre-planned/placed explosive charge at the WTC 1,2 and 7 buildings on 9/11, 2001.

Please post away I am awaiting the results................................





Phoenix

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Phoenix]




posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 11:30 PM
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Now here's an almost impossible challenge.

First, what happens when there's a cover up .. evidence is covered up.
So all we can do is provide you with signs to a coverup, the occasional smoking gun, the whistleblowers. So hopefully one of them is a member of the demolition team.

I hope someone can meet this challenge, but I don't believe it is the right way to convince someone of a cover up.
If you really needed a confession for every murder there wouldn't be many people brought to justice.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 12:52 AM
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Better yet, why don't we try and list all of the people who would have had to be in on the plot.

let's start with planting the demolition charges.

Since the exterior columns were inside the tenant spaces, behind drywall partitions, you need to be able to get into these spaces, open up the ceilings and walls, scrape off the fireproofing, attach your charge, wire your charge, repair/replace the ceiling tiles and drywall as necessary, repaint and clean up the mess.

First you need access to the building, so you need to coordinate with security and probably with the building management as well.

Second, you need to involve the building engineers. Engineers are generally pretty picky about construction work that goes on in their buildings. Not only do they know all about it, but they usually know the contractors, subs etc. Especially since this would obviously be a long term project that would cover most of the floors in the building.

Oh, and did I mention the tenants themselves? Many of the tenants were in the financial sector and thus sensitive about internal security. Most of these tenants had their own security systems. Many of them operated 24/7. It would not have been possible to just walk into these spaces and conduct this work without some interaction with the tenants.

As far as planting the charges in core areas, that would be even harder then around the perimeter, since most of the core columns were buried within the shaftways and vertical chases of the core.

In any event, it is just more activity to attract the notice of the building engineers, tenants and other people who would have had to have been in on the deal.

Finally, lets not forget the high ranking brass of the FDNY. did these men give the orders to blow up the buildings and kill 342 of their fellow firefighters?

Maybe all of the firemen that were killed were actually the most vocal of the union leaders and this is nothing more than a strikebreaking action?

OK, I'm being a little facetious on that last bit, but my point is that there would have had to be a huge coordination among the people that worked at the WTC to wire the buildings for demolition charges.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 01:27 AM
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Very good points Howard.

It's too bad that most of them are ignored by people who watch the video and think that controlled demolition is the only possible answer.

To add to your total lets bring in the 2600 full time employees of FEMA, and their 4000 standby employees, all of them in on it.

www.fema.gov...

And all of the engineers making the NIST report.


You know it might be a shorter list to find all the people who wouldn't be in on it.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong here.. but didnt the Elevator shafts run through the center of the core?

If so.. it wouldnt be hard at all to place charges..

I may be completely wrong here.. so correct me if I'm wrong..



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 01:43 AM
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True, but I don't know how much clearance they had along the walls. Also, a complex that size likely had a number of dedicated elevator mechanics working in it. Wouldn't they have noticed something?

It appears that a some of them were killed that day, but many others survived.


"Port Authority elevator engineers Bob Lynch and Francis Riccardelli, Silverstein Properties Elevator Project Manager John Griffin and ThyssenKrupp elevator mechanic Charles Costello were lost."


"ACE Elevator Co. provided elevator maintenance for the WTC. They were in the middle of a modernization project and were working out of an office located on the 35th floor in the south tower when the tragedy occurred. ACE reported that all of their employees are safe and accounted for.

Otis personnel were involved in the evacuation of the 7 WTC Building prior to its collapse and as can be imagined experienced some pretty rough times, but in the end, Otis reported that all of their employees are safe. We received a report from Schindler Elevator Corp. that all Schindler employees were accounted for and safe. Schindler Corp. had been installing escalators in the Pentagon as well as maintaining the elevators in the WTC Marriott Hotel.

CEC had some people originally scheduled to be in the WTC high-rise machine room the morning of September 11, but they instead had decided to work until 10 p.m. the night before to complete the work. God was with them.

Elevator mechanics know the buildings best and can actually help the police and firefighters get around to perform search and rescue operations.

This was, in fact, about to commence following the first hit on the north tower, when the second plane hit the south tower and all rescue operations ceased and a massive building evacuation commenced. Fortunately, all ACE, Otis and Schindler elevator personnel got out safely."


www.elevator-world.com...

Also, there is the whole issue of being able to access one side of the column only.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 02:22 AM
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Nice to see that you guys resort to the lack of "witnesses," or, more aptly, the actual conspirators, rather than sticking to aspects that are more objective.

I didn't know that it was common procedure for those that have just committed a conspiracy to come out and announce to everyone. Sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?


It's simply foolish to assume that every government employee from every related agency knew about the conspiracy. If the government did indeed commit a conspiracy, you know they wouldn't be that freaking sloppy. These guys are professionals, aren't they, Howie? Well, some of them are anyway.



Originally posted by HowardRoark
let's start with planting the demolition charges.

Since the exterior columns were inside the tenant spaces, behind drywall partitions, you need to be able to get into these spaces, open up the ceilings and walls, scrape off the fireproofing, attach your charge, wire your charge, repair/replace the ceiling tiles and drywall as necessary, repaint and clean up the mess.


This is total assumption, and of course it may not have happened like this in the slightest.

If we're allowed to dream up such things and post it as if it's evidence, then these debates have degraded to a new, even sadder level for the "debunkers."


First you need access to the building, so you need to coordinate with security and probably with the building management as well.


Now how could we go about getting access to the buildings.. If only Bush's brother was in charge of the security of the Twin Towers leading up to 9/11... Hey, wait! He was!


The name of the company was Securacom, and "[a]ccording to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center 'up to the day the buildings fell down.'"

911research.wtc7.net...
www.septembereleventh.org...
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...
216.177.7.126...

Also, as you'll recall, security was laxed by the Thursday before the attacks, and on that Thursday all bomb-sniffing dogs had been suddenly removed from the WTC buildings.

www.nynewsday.com...
911research.wtc7.net...

Well, there's one problem solved.



Second, you need to involve the building engineers


Wtf, why? Why would the government need to inform these people? Any engineer or etc. with demolition knowledge and access to the plans of the building would've done just fine in working out the details, and afterwards the person would've just been killed if they were deemed dangerous to the operation. If your government did this, they would not be total slack-offs and idiots about it, and you can rest assured of that.


Oh, and did I mention the tenants themselves? Many of the tenants were in the financial sector and thus sensitive about internal security. Most of these tenants had their own security systems. Many of them operated 24/7. It would not have been possible to just walk into these spaces and conduct this work without some interaction with the tenants.


Who, in all likelihood, are now dead anyway.


As far as planting the charges in core areas, that would be even harder then around the perimeter, since most of the core columns were buried within the shaftways and vertical chases of the core.


And were totally inaccessable? This is what you're suggesting, but I wonder if it's actually the case. QuietSoul just brought a point about the elevator shafts for one possibility, which you conveniently left out here as you suggest total inaccessibility. There's no reason to believe there would not have been any possible access to the core columns.


In any event, it is just more activity to attract the notice of the building engineers, tenants and other people who would have had to have been in on the deal.


I don't see why the engineers or tenants would have to be in on the conspiracy at all, and I don't even know who "other people" are to begin addressing. Only a very few would have had to have known to ensure a proper execution. Employees follow orders. They don't have to be told why; they just have to do it. And it's this sort of basic understanding that permits actions to be taken without people knowing fully what they are contributing to.

Even within NIST, FEMA, or the FBI, a few head guys passing down orders to employees would work just fine. Again, the guys in these agencies, especially the CIA, do not have # for brains and would not make such a foolhardy mistake as to make the conspiracy common knowledge to a whole freaking agency. You guys are going off some pretty weak evidence to suggest that that's how a conspiracy would have to work, and then expecting others to take such "evidence" seriously.


Finally, lets not forget the high ranking brass of the FDNY. did these men give the orders to blow up the buildings and kill 342 of their fellow firefighters?


And why would the firefighters have to demolish the buildings? Again, you wouldn't need to enlist these people in the conspiracy to bring the buildings down. You're just trying to lengthen your list.



OK, I'm being a little facetious on that last bit, but my point is that there would have had to be a huge coordination among the people that worked at the WTC to wire the buildings for demolition charges.


Says you.

The only hard part would be planting the explosives, and the opportunity was there for that. Marvin Bush's company had security lowered prior to 9/11, with bomb-sniffing dogs removed from the buildings, and the perfect opportunity to try something sly. And I'm sure that if our government was to carry out a conspiracy, they would not send in guys to place the explosives, and then let them live unless they were convinced the guys were of no threat to the operation. You guys tend to take the potential of the CIA for granted. After all, they have a virtually unlimited budget that, via Cold War policy, they don't even have to release publicly. These guys aren't baboons, whether they perpetrated a conspiracy or not.

What's sad about this post is that these arguments over witnesses and who must've seen what, etc., are going to turn into nothing but assumptuous, unfounded arguments, lest they fall into the usual circular trap of 9/11 in general. You could have at least tried to start an objective thread.

[edit on 27-8-2005 by bsbray11]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Oh, and did I mention the tenants themselves? Many of the tenants were in the financial sector and thus sensitive about internal security. Most of these tenants had their own security systems. Many of them operated 24/7. It would not have been possible to just walk into these spaces and conduct this work without some interaction with the tenants.


Who, in all likelihood, are now dead anyway.
\

Ah, and now something more to add.

This was reported by David Ray Griffen in his Hustler interview, as just posted. I'll look into it more after some sleep if you guys want some further verfication.



Several people who worked in the towers reported that there were times [shortly before the attack] when a certain part of one tower or the other was sectioned off for several days, and no one could go there except these special workers who were called "engineers." So it does appear that there could have been this kind of advance planning and that there would have been time to do this.





posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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I'd just like to see people acknowledge that:

Thinking you have heard an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Feeling an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Being hurt in an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Saying "it felt like....bombs going off" does not mean there were bombs present.

The presence of an explosion absolutely does not imply it was a bomb.

It could have been, yep! Absolutely. But there are also many other possible reasons.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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Wow BS, you really bring out the venom on that one.

And yet still make no reasonable assumptions. Very nice.


From what I've been able to find the elevator shafts alone would not have been enough. You need to destroy load bearing colomns and many of them.

I found a great picture of what a demolition looks like on the inside.

science.howstuffworks.com...




As you can see almost every support is wired up with explosives. All protective insulation is removed, and the demolition devices are large and conspicuous.

Even without bomb sniffing dogs, and a few rooms being closed down, I don't see how it's possible to rig the whole building without anyone noticing.


I also found a great illustration on controlled implosions which give an idea at least, of how many columns need to be rigged.

science.howstuffworks.com...


Generally speaking, blasters will explode the major support columns on the lower floors first and then a few upper stories. In a 20-story building, for example, the blasters might blow the columns on the first and second floor, as well as the 12th and 15th floors. In most cases, blowing the support structures on the lower floors is sufficient for collapsing the building, but loading columns on upper floors helps break the building material into smaller pieces as it falls. This makes for easier clean-up following the blast.




edit: Just had to add that Bush's brother was no longer a principal at the time of the attacks. Nice try though.

911research.wtc7.net...


Marvin P. Bush, brother of George W. Bush, was a principal in the company between 1993 and 2000. A private Kuwaiti-American investment firm with ties to the Bush family was one of the company's backers.


[edit on 27-8-2005 by LeftBehind]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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For years and years I've seen video's and non-expert statements by purported witnesses/researchers of the JFK Assassination.

Many express the idea that JFK was assassinated by other gunmen on the grasy knoll, possibly acting on behalf of the CIA, the mafia, international bankers or whoever.

Since several hundred people would have been involved in planning and execution of the assassination of the Presdent of the United States without a doubt offering no disagreement as to the wide existance of a complicated conspiracy leading to his murder.

How come no one has come forward after 40 years claiming knowledge of an inside job?

The Challenge:

Find one credible witness (IE: Participated in the assassination or planning thereof) that corroborates a planned, inside job.

Please post away I am awaiting the results................................

[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
For years and years I've seen video's and non-expert statements by purported witnesses/researchers of the JFK Assassination.



wecomeinpeace,

I love the dripping sarcasm (no really I mean that)

The difference is a cast of dozens vs. a cast of thousands.

LeftBehind,

Thanks for posting that demo setup image - its what I had in my minds eye as to what would be required to pull off a demolition.

Most should see the extent of visible work required and wonder at the distinct lack of witnesses to anything like it in relation to the WTC.

Working as an engineer (one of those guys with secret access as mentioned by another poster) I have full knowledge of all activities at my property and so does management and the tenants. In my case thats 700 people to notice something unusual, the WTC witness potential was orders of magnitude higher.

One can hardly sneeze without it getting noticed by someone in an office building.

Sure a building can be demolished into its footprint. The question of having one where an arrangement has been made to have airplanes run into it so a demolition can be arranged secretly without witnesses leaking the plan is far fetched at best.

So lets list those involved, Government agencies, FAA, CIA, FBI, DIA, NRO, FEMA, local building officials, city government, fire administration, building owner, port authority, building management, building security, building engineering, janitorial staff, trade unions for subcontracted work, outside repair technicians and of course occupants of the building.

I'm sure I've left someone out on the list but I think I've made my point of the extensive conspiracy required to pull off a "secret" demolition.

If the demolition theory is hold any water at all would there be even one witness of thousands who came forward,

To date I have heard of none.

Either its the PERFECT conspiracy or no conspiracy at all.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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I think the root of the problem is that too many people watch movies like 'James Bond' or XXX and truely believe it is possible for one man to single handedly destroy a whole complex with some chewing gum explosive.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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wecomeinpeace, I love the dripping sarcasm (no really I mean that)


Fight fire with fire, I say.
Still, the curse of sarcasm is: Now I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
Yeah, I was being facetious, sorry mate, but there was a point behind it all.


The difference is a cast of dozens vs. a cast of thousands.


Your first estimate was "hundreds", now it has become "thousands"... next post, "millions", I assume. I think you're being very conservative with your estimate of the number of people involved in the JFK assassination and very liberal with your estimate of the people involved in the 9-11 conspiracy.

I'm no expert on the JFK assassination, not by any stretch of the term, but I know a little of the theories, some even involving coffins being switched and loaded on and off planes, the body being "worked on", the secret service limo driver deliberately staying at low speed until the killing shot hit, the CIA hiring the mob to do the job, the Warren Commission being fixed just like the 9-11 Commission, evidence disappearing, photographs being doctored, evidence being planted (such as bullets being planted on the stretcher), Hoover directing it all from above, maybe even GHWB having a hand in it, etc, etc. So we're talking a LOT of people here, not just the guys who pulled the trigger(s). Doctors, nurses, pilots, drivers, photographers, police, FBI agents, CIA agents, secret service guys, mobsters, Warren Commission members, Oswald's handlers, Oswald's killer(s), the list goes on and on... Why have none of them come forth and said, "Yep, we did it. I can't live with the guilt anymore." Not even on their deathbed, facing judgment, has anyone admitted to anything. And that's only the people involved, what about witnesses to bizarre events, body switching, etc etc. Heck, I'm even sticking to the conservative theories surrounding the assassination. Add in the bankers or Commies and suddenly the web gets even bigger.

As for the limits of who could be in on, or witness to, explosives being planted in the towers it's been laid out by a poster above so I won't bore you by repeating it. There were witnesses to sections of the building being sectioned of for "special work", so there's some witnesses for you. There are many witnesses to unusual events and phenomena on the day. Let's say some janitor dude did see a small team of engineers working in a coordined-off section of the basement, at the time do you think he would have thought much of it in a building that size with work going on all the time? Enough to call the Washington Post and say, "There were suspicious guys working in the WTC basement on 9-9. Maybe they were planting explosives. They had "BOOM BOOM CREW" written on their overalls."
And even if he did, do you think the newspapers would listen to him? Also, when surfing around ATS all day, it's easy to forget that 99.9% of the population, workers in the building included, have NEVER entertained the (to them fantastical) thought that the towers were demolished by their own government, even in hindsight.

What about the OKC bombing? Anyone who thinks that a truck of fertilizer did that kind of structural damage to the building needs to have their head checked, let alone considering all the other smoking guns. But somehow, the FBI/BATF were able to place bombs in the building without anyone batting an eyelid, nor coming forward after the event.

What about the Gulf of Tonkin? How many sailors have come forward and said, "We were shooting at nothing"? Think of how many would have been involved in that exercise...

Hey, pick any conspiracy you like...

Lastly, WTC1 & 2 aside, there is absolutely no sane denying that WTC7 was brought down by controlled demolition, whether planned before the event, or as a reaction to it and the subsequent fires. So why has no one come forward and exposed that?

Your logic, while seemingly reasonable, is a bit of a stretch especially when taking into account your inflated estimates of who would have been involved or witness. And if we are to accept it as completely valid, then congratulations are in order since you have successfully debunked every single conspiracy ever discussed on this site; might as well call Simon and tell him to close ATS down and just concentrate on PTS, ATSNN and BTS.

[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I'd just like to see people acknowledge that:

Thinking you have heard an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Feeling an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Being hurt in an explosion does not mean there were bombs present.

Saying "it felt like....bombs going off" does not mean there were bombs present.

The presence of an explosion absolutely does not imply it was a bomb.

It could have been, yep! Absolutely. But there are also many other possible reasons.


Which is precisely why it's more valuable to resort to objective evidence rather than people's subjective recounts.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Wow BS, you really bring out the venom on that one.

And yet still make no reasonable assumptions. Very nice.


Assuming who had to have been in on it is nothing but assumptions. Whether or not they're unreasonable is based on how likely you think they were. I have my opinions, you have yours.

I'd like to reiterate, though, for the less creative of us, that you would not have to set up an obvious demolition rig to bring the buildings down, nor even a conventional one. They could've planted # in walls where no one would have seen, etc., and no one would have suspected a thing. As DRG brings forward, there were reports of sections of the building being closed for days at a time leading up to the collapse. Coincidence, I'm sure. The WTC just needed, uh, upgrades on its.. uh... drywall.


Edited for my weird habit of thinking one word, and typing a totally different one.


[edit on 27-8-2005 by bsbray11]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
As DRG brings forward, there were reports of sections of the building being closed for days at a time leading up to the collapse. Coincidence, I'm sure. The WTC just needed, uh, upgrades on its.. uh... drywall.


Marvin Bush's company finishing it's contract on the towers the very day of the collapses is just a coincidence too, I'm sure. As is FBI Deputy Director and Bush cabal whistleblower John O'Niell being given the job as head of security for the towers and dying on his first day on the job.

And I'm sure the bomb-sniffing dogs needed a well-earned vacation.

[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Your logic, while seemingly reasonable, is a bit of a stretch especially when taking into account your inflated estimates of who would have been involved or witness. And if we are to accept it as completely valid, then congratulations are in order since you have successfully debunked every single conspiracy ever discussed on this site; might as well call Simon and tell him to close ATS down and just concentrate on PTS, ATSNN and BTS.

[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]


ATS has no problem debunking false UFO reports, why should there be a problem basing the demolition theory on credible witness data rather than objective
conjecture making for a he said she said type debate that has in reality gone nowhere but in ever increasing circles.


So far I have yet to see one single citing of a credible witness and one heck of a lot of avoidance of the original question this thread is based on.

[edit on 27-8-2005 by Phoenix]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by Phoenix
ATS has no problem debunking false UFO reports


I know, but I made no mention of "a psychic vampire from mars turned my dog inside out" theories. Your "enigmas have no solution" logic debunks every single conspiracy theory ever, including the ones based more in reality which I mentioned. I gather from your position that you believe Oswald assassinated Kennedy since no credible witness/conspirator has ever come forward in forty two years. If you believe this to be the case, let us know now so that we can guage your stance and objectivity as far as conspiracies go.

Reminds me of CatHerder's First Law of Conspiracies.

[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
If you believe this to be the case, let us know now so that we can guage your stance and objectivity as far as conspiracies go.


[edit on 2005-8-27 by wecomeinpeace]


Still dissembling and avoiding the subject of this thread I see.

What do they call this? oh yeah its ad hominim isn't it.



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