Survivors Remember Masonic Abuse & Satanic Symbols Interwoven

why are you guys falling all over yourselves to debunk it?

Please define the " you guys".

As for the why the motto here is " Deny Ignorance".

hows this for a first conversation between Lawrence and Michelle.

Ya know Micky if ya can come up
wit some good stuff we could do a book , maybe even a made for tv movie.

that would be cool larry. maybe even get some of thesefundie whack jobs like Chick and Warnke
involved huh?


Isnt there some kind of ethics thing about a Dr. boning his patient?

And so here we are again.

Please, humour me.

Please explain to me why neither eudamonia or suzy have been able to rebuke even one of the umpteen sources of information that have so far been submitted. Have you guys even read the sources and/or books?

You've been shown personal accounts (mine), professional resources, independent reviews of cases, and yet the "Eeew Masons are really a front for SRA" allegations are still being bandied around, without a shred of evidence, other than a few AOL homepages which contain so little credible source material that it's almost laughable.

You know what I think is really tragic?

That real victims of child sex abuse are being used as pawns in what appears to be a rabid anti-Masonic campaign.

If the worst of it is true, child sexual abuse is rampant all over the world. I personally would be happy to field-dress anybody I caught in the act of sexually abusing a child.

These pedophile rings are deeply entrenched, and what we hear about them is just the tip of the iceberg. Like it or not, lives are being shaped by these horrific experiences, often perpetrated by parents, family members, and trusted friends. They depend on the social stigma and the secrecy and the 'Oh! That could never happen here!' mentality to maintain their stranglehold on these terrified kids.

Saying "Masons, wouldn't, couldn't ever do this, they don't have the opportunity or motive" simply isn't true, for them, or anybody else for that matter. This issue needs to be fully investigated wherever the trail may lead, and whatever resources necessary need to be applied to root out this evil and eradicate it. The fact that this isn't already being done to the extent that it could and should by law enforcement and public and non-profit agencies in this country is a conspiracy in itself.

The child protective and social services system in the US is a disgrace, imo, doing little to shield children from divorce and the destruction of the American family, serving as a conduit to instead of a barrier insulating these vulnerable, bewildered kids from these violent predators seeking exploitation and control.

I know this sounds harsh. It is harsh. Our children deserve much better than this.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
These pedophile rings are deeply entrenched, and what we hear about them is just the tip of the iceberg. Like it or not, lives are being shaped by these horrific experiences, often perpetrated by parents, family members, and trusted friends.

Absolutely, Icarus

I don't think anyone is disputing that paedophile rings exist, and more often than not are controlled by the victim's family members and friends thereof.

Saying "Masons, wouldn't, couldn't ever do this, they don't have the opportunity or motive" simply isn't true, for them, or anybody else for that matter.

I don't think anyone's actually saying that individual Masons would never harm anyone. It'd be equally inaccurate to say "Christians never hurt anyone", but it's the same train of thought as this:

Joe abuses 2 six year olds. Joe is a Christian. Does this mean Christianity is responsible, or that Christianity is a front for SRA?

Fred abuses children with a horrifying regularity, as part of a "ring". He's a Big Brother, and Jewish. Does this mean that the Big Brother organisation and/or Judaism are both fronts for SRA?

People are abusing children because that's what they like, and are compelled, to do., not because they belong to any religious/social group.

I know this sounds harsh. It is harsh. Our children deserve much better than this.

Yes, they absolutely do deserve to be protected as fully as possible.

And that also means they should be protected against being used as pawns in any kind of religious or political debate.

I agree that it is the individuals not the organizations that are to blame.

By the same token, it is individuals that control these organizations, and have for a very long time, that can carry on these activities right beneath the noses of those saying 'Oh, no! That couldn't happen here!'

For example:

Boy Scout Leader Guilty of Child Porn

and there are many others.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I agree that it is the individuals not the organizations that are to blame.

Then why do you keep dragging organizations into the fray?

By the same token, it is individuals that control these organizations,

It has nothing to do with the organizations and the individuals that control organizations, but yet you continue to harp on the organizations with your namby pamby worries. It is preposterous for you to expect the Masons, PTA, Kiwanas, Elks, Chamber of Commerce or any other organization to screen each member as you desire. But despite your lead sentence, "I agree that it is the individuals not the organizations that are to blame", you continue to harp about the organizations and their leadership.

'Oh, no! That couldn't happen here!'

Nobody does anything of the kind. Bad people are everywhere and some are in every organization. This is a given. They are dealt with once discovered by an organization. Such representations are those of whiners that do nothing except whine.

Perhaps you'd like some cheese with your whine.
.

Oh Great Snipy One,

I harp on the orgs because they are the vehicle for this abuse, and yes they do need to do a better job of self-policing. Unless, of course, its ok with you that these children are being exploited and abused by the members of the very organizations that were designed to help them in the first place.

I don't drink wine, and I won't have any of your bile, either, bless you very much.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I harp on the orgs because they are the vehicle for this abuse...

You keep saying the same things, but you fail to provide one stitch of evidence against even one organization. Putting on your ruby slippers and clicking your heels together 3 times doesn't make your fantasy true.

and yes they do need to do a better job of self-policing.

Explain to me how you propose that the PTA self-police its members. And even if they did self-police your next whine would be "how can you trust them to self-police their own members". It is a no win situation with you people.

Unless, of course, its ok with you that these children are being exploited and abused...

More whining drivel. Everytime some whiner has no evidence for their position the children card is played to get sympathy for their baseless defamation of noble organizations.

Here is an organization you can go after with my blessing, NAMBLA. This organization really has an agenda to abuse and exploit children, unlike the organizations which you and your whining chorus attack. In a single link I have provided more relevant information on the exploitation and abuse of children than all of you SRA whiners put together.
.

At least NAMBLA is out in the open about what its aims are, not purporting to be anything but what it is, an abomination in the eyes of God.

Its the slimy serpents that infiltrate what you call these noble organizations and smear that noble legacy with the excrement of their behavior while they glad-hand their charges for the public eye that should really demand your attention.

But its easier for you to spit your venom at me than to admit your cherished lodges and kid's clubs have issues with their members that aren't being properly addressed, that are ongoing and embedded in the very fabric of their operations. Instead of just saying 'they can't' and 'they shouldn't have to' clean up their act, why don't you put your apparently considerable intellect to finding better ways to protect kids, rather than your beloved status quo.

Your logic escapes me Icarus, if the police, trained for this, can't apprehend these felons, how do you expect accountants, firemen, doctors, etc. that are members of Masonry to do it? Do you think a person goes to the Masons and says, "I'd like to join. BTW, I'm a pedophile"? C'mon be reasonable at least. What you're doing here is nothing less than a Drumhead.

I don't get it. I'm not attacking his personal beliefs or calling him names, just suggesting there may be a better outlet for his ire. I'm stating nothing more than possibilities suggested by the link that started the thread. I'm not whining about anything, simply stating my concern that milk cartons and mailers aren't enough to save these kids. Why aren't more resources devoted to this issue? Why don't police have a better success rate? Why hasn't a better system of screening these sickos out of these organizations been developed and implemented?

These are good questions. I was trying to have a philosophical discussion here.

Oh, well. Goodbye.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Its the slimy serpents that infiltrate what you call these noble organizations and smear that noble legacy with the excrement of their behavior while they glad-hand their charges for the public eye that should really demand your attention.

Can you say "Catholic Church"?

In one sentance you have just areed that it really is single "slimy serpents" that infiltrate these organizations you heap blame on. Face reality and realize that if they can fool everyone around them then they sure can fool the local organization they might belong to. Unless you have some super duper secret new method of identifying these perpetrators then maybe you should just hand it over instead of crying like a child and blaming the organizations.

quote: Originally posted by eudaimonia
The most that the authorities, friends or family can do is investigate any local masonic temples, ask questions, get to the bottom of what is really going on.

LOL My lodge has public functions and opens the lodge to the public. If a visitor asked politely, I would be happy to show them about and if they wanna see the basement/attic then fine. If the police did the same, I'd be just as happy.

eudaimonia - I fail to see how you are able to make so many false and unsubstantiated claims without so much as a warning. It must be a conspiracy!!!!

Originally posted by suzy ryan
The Final, O.K. just read the whole link of what goes on in Australia and keep in mind that it's comments and reactions like yours, by people like you, that stall justice and help keep the issue buried. Eudiamonias post is not ment to"impress" anyone but wake people up to the depth and breadth of the problem. It strikes me as "telling" that certain groups ferociously defend their right to keep certain things "private" yet demand that anyone raising the issue of organized/ritual/stanic child abuse is asked for identifying "proof" before many will even treat their claims with any human compassion. EVIDENCE needs to HEARD, GATHERED, STORED, HANDLED and PRESENTED PROPERLY before charges can be laid let alone convictions made yet in these cases that all rarely gets done properly by those who put the "good names" of the accused above true justice for the victims. So, saddly alot of survivers can only speak out about the issue as naming names will only get them sued for slander BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WON'T LET THEM PROVE THEIR CASE. DO YOU GET THAT POINT YET OR DO YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT ALL THE WORLDS LEGAL SYSTEMS ARE FAULTLESS?

Suzy do you believe everything that this "novel" says? do you think for a moment some of this might be planted memories" by so called professional psychologists or hypnotists? do you ever think some force these "memories" into the mind of the person to give themselves more clients and or more business? quite a few after these so called trials are revealed to have a shady past. I know some masons myself none of their practices are even remotely close to these "accusations" and sometimes I see these "recalled" or "supressed" memories are actually lies implanted just to give these hypnotists more business or more standing in the public eye to try to discredit or try to get secrets from these groups. This was the lie that was made into judgement on the knights templar accusations and lies.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
If its bunk, why are you guys falling all over yourselves to debunk it? Seems to me you would be better served to blow it off. You draw more attention to the topic, and arouse more suspicion (especially among conspiricists) by going on and on.

Those who engage in SRA are extemely secretive, and I believe swear their initiates to silence on pain of death. They've been around for a long, long time, have been persecuted severely, and know how to cover their tracks to protect their own. Sound familiar?

This is ridiculous. If everybody on a website was sitting around discussing what a child molester you were and bunches of people were sitting around agreeing with them then you too would state something to the negative. Especially when it is so easily refuted. All one has to do to prove it incorrect is go and watch a Masonic Temple on one of their meeting nights. Those are publicized and are often on the sign in front. Watch, see that no children enter. If there are women and children going in then it is an open night where either everybody can come in if they wish and you could simply walk in and check it out, or they are having a dinner where you would need to purchase a ticket to eat and take part in the festivities.

You can easily see for yourself that this inane chatter is exactly that if you wanted to spend even a dime of the energy that you spend telling others what horrible pedophiles and satanists that they are. It is easy to believe the worst in what you do not know, even easier if you simply repeat whatever bad you hear and never attempt to find out the truth.

eudaimonia I checked out the website you mentioned on the Egyptian masonic connection and there was a reference to Alastair Crowley. Crowley was a clandestine mason never recognized by a recognized grand lodge.

The police need doctors and other professionals to make their cases. When those doctors and other professionals are the fellow "brothers"of those who claim they're are being falsly accussed....Get real...what would you do to be able to continue satisfieing your lust for sex with children if that was your addiction, hand out all the high powered favours you can or commit suicide? I've been the round of my cases being handed over to "unsimpathetic" investigators like so many others and none of your properganda will change the fact that certain people get away with murder and worse. Yes there is something worse than murder, I hope that those of you belittleing survivers and their supporters never get to find out what it is.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
The police need doctors and other professionals to make their cases. When those doctors and other professionals are the fellow "brothers"of those who claim they're are being falsly accussed....Get real...what would you do to be able to continue satisfieing your lust for sex with children if that was your addiction, hand out all the high powered favours you can or commit suicide? Yes there is something worse than murder, I hope that those of you belittleing survivers and their supporters never get to find out what it is.

Do you realise you're basically saying every doctor involved is part of the conspiracy? You realise how implausible - just on it's premise! - that sounds?

When are you going to stop accusing anyone who disagrees or rebukes your claim as being part of the group who are "belittling survivors" ? (if anything, these survivors are even more victimized by the heinous actions of those using false memories and coercion to get accusatory statements from them, too)

You're ignoring what you don't want to read, suzy. Don't the actual accounts of someone else involved in such a case matter, either? Or do you only want to believe the accounts which support your side? Does it matter to you that witnesses have provided accounts which directly contradict some of these allegations? Or are you just going with "every witness contradicting the statements has to be in on it too"?

and when are you going to quit believing/assuming that "there's no SRA" means "child abuse doesn't exist"?

Originally posted by suzy ryan
The police need doctors and other professionals to make their cases. When those doctors and other professionals are the fellow "brothers"of those who claim they're are being falsly accussed....Get real...what would you do to be able to continue satisfieing your lust for sex with children if that was your addiction, hand out all the high powered favours you can or commit suicide? I've been the round of my cases being handed over to "unsimpathetic" investigators like so many others and none of your properganda will change the fact that certain people get away with murder and worse. Yes there is something worse than murder, I hope that those of you belittleing survivers and their supporters never get to find out what it is.

You can falsify this report yourself if you had any inkling to do so. Masons do not hide their affiliation. You could simply stop by and watch as Masons meet, you will notice that on meeting nights there are no children there. If it is an open lodge night and children and women are entering with the Masons you could enter as well, and would be welcome to do so usually. You could watch the eating ritual that they do to stave off their hunger and watch as they give awards to recognize good scholarship or to police officers and firefighters to recognize their service to the community. You would find no evidence of such things at all, not because they hide in their building, but because there would never be an opportunity for such. It would not take very much investigation for you to find out exactly how ridiculous this is.

Such easily identified falsehoods are amazingly inept attacks on a fraternity that was put together to promote friendship, morality, and brotherly love.

Suzy & eudamonia:

Since this is such a widespread problem according to you both (and your crappy sources), I officially challenge you to go out into your communities and find me, say... oh maybe 5 people each that will be willing to state under oath and a polygraph test that they were abused by Masons (in a ritually satanic fashion!) as children. Since this problem is so rampant, I doubt you will have any problem finding real-live FLESH AND BLOOD people from from your own communities who are SO WILLING to be heard if given the opportunity, since you claim their stories are being buried and and the victims silenced.

Are you up for it? Because when you find them. I want to speak to them myself and look them in the eye while they take that polygraph.

So if you're so freakin' concerned about this "social issue", simply put down the mouse, stop hiding behind your anonymous monikers and lack of documentation, and go find me some survivors who will corroborate what you say is really happening on such a mass scale. Find me all these traumatized kids that are willing to point the finger at the Masons and let me ask them a few questions myself. They should be everywhere around you, according to your logic, so I expect results in a relatively short amount of time.

Just five. Not public cases that have been recycled all over the web, just everyday people living right next door who have been "silenced" by the "conspiracy". Let's give these "survivors" a chance to come forward into the limelight where they want to be, right? Where YOU want them to be, that is...

Yeah, right. Anybody taking bets on this one??? NOT gonna happen.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by Stegosaur]