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Survivors Remember Masonic Abuse & Satanic Symbols Interwoven

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posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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From The Egyptian-Masonic-Satanic Connection by David L. Carrico

"Many survivors whom I have worked or spoken with observed that they had terrible reactions to their breakthrough memories, that after they had a memory, some became suicidal, felt that they were losing their minds or had other strange responses. Why should they suddenly feel so negative at the very moment of a leap into freedom? These reactions helped them and their therapists understand that this was not solely a phenomenon of physical and spiritual torture. An advanced scientific system of mind control was the main ingredient in satanic cult abuse.

People's recovery process deepened, and survivors and their therapists discovered more about imposed and natural disassociation and repression. Some survivors remembered that Masonic abuse also occurred. As each month goes on, more and more therapists and survivors are reporting this connection. Some remember their fathers taking them to Masonic meetings and rituals occurring on the characteristic black and white checkered floors. Other survivors have done art work describing their abuse, in which Masonic and satanic symbols are interwoven. Some of Ann-Marie Germain's conversations with her father, which support her memories of having been Masonically and satanically abused were recently published in Margaret Smith's book Ritual Abuse (HarperSanFrancisco, 1993).

David L. Carrico's book The Egyptian - Masonic - Satanic Connection presents the characteristics of Masonic abuse. With Rick Doninger, he describes the characteristics of satanic abuse and demonstrates how they correspond. In addition, some of what he describes as Masonic practices are also reported by satanic cult survivors, such as the kissing of certain parts of the body described on page 126. The double subterranean level shown in the illustration on page 64 matches what some survivors have described as hidden ritual sites. The demonic presences described on page 137 reflects some satanic cult survivors' experiences. Another similarity is the extensive and exact use of hand signals and motions to communicate messages."




posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 11:44 PM
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Ummmm do you hold any opinions on this topic? Or did you merely want to share this site with us? I read through it and I was not impressed. I read the next few pages and I haven't seen a single case report, or a shred of evidence to support any of the accusations that have been brought up.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 12:27 AM
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The Final, O.K. just read the whole link of what goes on in Australia and keep in mind that it's comments and reactions like yours, by people like you, that stall justice and help keep the issue buried. Eudiamonias post is not ment to"impress" anyone but wake people up to the depth and breadth of the problem. It strikes me as "telling" that certain groups ferociously defend their right to keep certain things "private" yet demand that anyone raising the issue of organized/ritual/stanic child abuse is asked for identifying "proof" before many will even treat their claims with any human compassion. EVIDENCE needs to HEARD, GATHERED, STORED, HANDLED and PRESENTED PROPERLY before charges can be laid let alone convictions made yet in these cases that all rarely gets done properly by those who put the "good names" of the accused above true justice for the victims. So, saddly alot of survivers can only speak out about the issue as naming names will only get them sued for slander BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WON'T LET THEM PROVE THEIR CASE. DO YOU GET THAT POINT YET OR DO YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT ALL THE WORLDS LEGAL SYSTEMS ARE FAULTLESS?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 12:57 AM
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Well, hell, there is your problem. Its AUSTALIA! It was a penal colony. You sure you are not stuck in the 1800's?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:08 AM
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Good post Suzy..... and spot on

and yup wiggy Australia was a penal colony before your great great great great grandaddy was a twinkle in your great great great great great grandaddys eye. lots has changed since then, and then again lots hasn't changed.

Are you sure you are not still stuck in the 1800's after all you seem to remember the history so well.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:14 AM
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Oh Wiggy, you're off topic and insulting, yet again! Isn't this topic worth SOME HUMAN COMPASSION? Did you read the link? It's pretty discusting, what survivers have to go through to be heared, and you certainly don't seem to be wanting the issue to run. Why is that?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by The_Final
Ummmm do you hold any opinions on this topic? Or did you merely want to share this site with us? I read through it and I was not impressed. I read the next few pages and I haven't seen a single case report, or a shred of evidence to support any of the accusations that have been brought up.



Well, just the fact that I'm posting this shows how much I feel about it. I definitely am not a skeptic, so to speak, when it comes to SRA. I for one believe this is real tragedy going on today, I believe there is a connection, I do believe people are capable of doing evil, I do believe there's been an effort to cover-up, but most importantly, I believe the survivors. Suzy pretty much summed up how I feel, and how others should feel about all this. I think when it comes to SRA, which I find almost impossible to imagine the horrific things that must be going on, its the survivors that are being basically being told to either keep quiet (from authorities) or usually end up needing psychiatric therapy for the rest of their lives that disables them from ever speaking about it. But that does not mean there is no signs ever of recovering or signs of "remembering" their abuse. Some survivors through the help of intensive therapy or just simply waiting until they "break out" from their emotional scars, that's when we start the hear the real story behind the abuse. Keep in mind that mind-control plays a major role in SRA. Again, I have to emphasis, there are no words to describe the degree of mental torture that these survivors must have gone through. It's not a question of "Where's the evidence" if you mean "Where's the official documents that prove so", because the evidence lies within the survivors and their recollection of their abuse. Even if these documents or hard evidence that some of you need in order to believe, even that kind of sensitive information is not likely to be out in the open. You either believe what they're saying or you believe that everything that's been told (including the author of the book/site) are flat out lying. People need to look at this with an open heart and open mind. Your response is basically saying this: that if a child or adult is reporting an abuse and when the parent or friend confronts them with questioning the parent or friend will say "Well, that's sad, but I need proof, is that all you got?" Do you understand how illogical that sounds? From a human perspective. I'm not sure if there's a detailed report concentrating on one particular case online, but the book by David L. Carrico has done extensive research on the cases and their investigations.

Actually, if you go to the following links, you'll find a lot more information on SRA and an indepth look at several cases:

More on Ann-Marie Germain's SRA Case

Information on Ritual Abuse and Secret Societies

[edit on 26-8-2005 by eudaimonia]


df1

posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
It's not a question of "Where's the evidence" if you mean "Where's the official documents that prove so", because the evidence lies within the survivors and their recollection of their abuse.

The same tests that convict a bank robber must apply to convict someone of SRA. I agree with the anonymous quote, "It is more of a crime and a tragedy to convict one innocent person, than to let 1000 criminals go free."
.



[edit on 26-8-2005 by df1]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Great link! Lots of very interesting history and information to be found there.

There is definitely something evil going on behind the scenes all around us, all over the world, and there always has been. This quite possibly could be its modern incarnation, rooted in the Ancient Mysteries, and twisted to enslave mankind.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by df1
The same tests that convict a bank robber must apply to convict someone of SRA. I agree with the anonymous quote, "It is more of a crime and a tragedy to convict one innocent person, than to let 1000 criminals go free."



Not really. It is harder to find the perpetrator(s) of an SRA victim than a bank robber because SRA is done in secrecy. With a bank robber, at least you know who to look for, you can have the person present to interrogate, you have something to work with, someone to put behind bars. With SRA, you have some idea where it took place (because of the descriptions given by the victims), but to figure out who exactly did the harm is another story. The most that the authorities, friends or family can do is investigate any local masonic temples, ask questions, get to the bottom of what is really going on. The idea that the victims might be lying or fabricating some fantasy is absurd. They can recall important details, and that's what should be used as evidence. Especially if you have more than one victim coming foward with a similiar story.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
Not really. It is harder to find the perpetrator(s) of an SRA victim than a bank robber because SRA is done in secrecy. With a bank robber, at least you know who to look for, you can have the person present to interrogate, you have something to work with, someone to put behind bars. With SRA, you have some idea where it took place (because of the descriptions given by the victims), but to figure out who exactly did the harm is another story. The most that the authorities, friends or family can do is investigate any local masonic temples, ask questions, get to the bottom of what is really going on. The idea that the victims might be lying or fabricating some fantasy is absurd. They can recall important details, and that's what should be used as evidence. Especially if you have more than one victim coming foward with a similiar story.


Proving that the "perpetrators" of this alleged abuse had access to the "victims" would be a good start. Mont parents would know if their children were being carted off to the lodge in the middle of the night... Right?

I read the links you provided, even the other articles at the bottom; Freemasons and Mystery Religions and such. Not impressed.

Now if these "victims" could identify the "perpetrators," give time frames, locations, things that can be verified by outside sources, then you might be onto something.

Something else I found interesting; when their "sources" were talking about Masonic involvement, etc. there was no credit given to the quotes. It just said "A practicing psychologist said..." or "A Midwest counter-cult Ministry said..." things of that nature. That is not credible information. Sources should be documented. I noticed that when non-biased explanations of disorders and such were given, names and credentials were provided, but not when Masonry was mentioned... Hmmmm... I find that interesting.

Bottom line, lots of talk, lots of speculation, nothing solid to go on. Investigations cannot be conducted in this manner. Either you have leads and you follow them to the perpetrators, or you have no leads to begin with. The way it's looking, the latter is the case.

Keep trying.


[edit on 8/26/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman


I read the links you provided, even the other articles at the bottom; Freemasons and Mystery Religions and such. Not impressed.


I dunno, one of those links (members.aol.com...) contains my favorite quote of the year:

"Last year during medical treatment for inflammation of my right eye, a memory surfaced in which my abusers poked my eye and told me they had taken my eyeball out and would not put it back until I vowed lifelong obedience to the Penis God.

Bwahahahahaha!



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
The Final, O.K. just read the whole link of what goes on in Australia and keep in mind that it's comments and reactions like yours, by people like you, that stall justice and help keep the issue buried.


So 16 year old boy from California is keeping this issue buried due to the fact that they would like to see some evidence?



Eudiamonias post is not ment to"impress" anyone but wake people up to the depth and breadth of the problem


MEMBERS: Do not simply post news articles in the forums without comment. If you fell inclined to make the baord aware of current events. please post the first paragraph, a link to the entire story, AND your opinion, twist or take on the news item.






BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WON'T LET THEM PROVE THEIR CASE. DO YOU GET THAT POINT YET OR DO YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT ALL THE WORLDS LEGAL SYSTEMS ARE FAULTLESS?


Please explain this more, are you suggesting that since these people have NO EVIDENCE besides their "memories"?

[edit: Grammer, Spelling]


[edit on 26-8-2005 by The_Final]


df1

posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by eudaimonia
The most that the authorities, friends or family can do is investigate any local masonic temples, ask questions, get to the bottom of what is really going on.

I suppose you could get a search warrant for the Masonic Temple, however you still would be stuck on the issue of probable cause. They don't hand out search warrants like gift certificates at the mall. It seems like that thing about needing evidence keeps coming up and none ever seems to be present.

Perhaps the best place to start is by the victim going to the hospital and receiving a rape exam for evidence. It would be hard for anybody to deny dna evidence. Men from every walk of life are prosecuted everyday using this type of evidence. It seems odd that in a country as large as the U.S. you can not come up with one scrap of evidence showing Masonic involvement in SRA. In fact if you include the entire planet, you still can not come up with one scrap of evidence to establish the probable cause necessary for a search warrant, let alone the evidence necessary to prove a crime.

How do you explain this?
.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by The Axeman


I read the links you provided, even the other articles at the bottom; Freemasons and Mystery Religions and such. Not impressed.


I dunno, one of those links (members.aol.com...) contains my favorite quote of the year:

"Last year during medical treatment for inflammation of my right eye, a memory surfaced in which my abusers poked my eye and told me they had taken my eyeball out and would not put it back until I vowed lifelong obedience to the Penis God.

Bwahahahahaha!




All Hail The phallic god!!!!! And how would a phallic god be represented? the freaking sun perhaps? you cant get more male than the sun itself. And i wonder what he poked his\her eye with! rofll



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by eudaimonia
The most that the authorities, friends or family can do is investigate any local masonic temples, ask questions, get to the bottom of what is really going on.

I suppose you could get a search warrant for the Masonic Temple, however you still would be stuck on the issue of probable cause. They don't hand out search warrants like gift certificates at the mall. It seems like that thing about needing evidence keeps coming up and none ever seems to be present.

Perhaps the best place to start is by the victim going to the hospital and receiving a rape exam for evidence. It would be hard for anybody to deny dna evidence. Men from every walk of life are prosecuted everyday using this type of evidence. It seems odd that in a country as large as the U.S. you can not come up with one scrap of evidence showing Masonic involvement in SRA. In fact if you include the entire planet, you still can not come up with one scrap of evidence to establish the probable cause necessary for a search warrant, let alone the evidence necessary to prove a crime.

How do you explain this?
.


The FBI did a study on SRA for about 10 years and found that it just isn't found to be a widespread issue at all. I will see if I can find the study results and post a link. This is simply one of the funniest attacks I have ever seen. Anybody at all can stand and watch a Lodge of Masons meet and see for themselves there are no children there.

If there are children at the Masonic Temple then it isn't a lodge meeting and there will be women as well and there will likely be food set out that one could observe them doing the eating ritual. They do this ritual because they have this problem called hunger. I know it is rare in the unMasonic world, but Masons are commonly found eating food when they meet together and are not forming a Lodge.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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I have really tried to stay out of this topic, for more than one reason, but damn people, this is the third thread in as many weeks on the same thing. Getting old. While I feel that Tinkleflower has done a fabulous job at debating this issue in the context presented, I just have to throw in my bits. Suzy, feel free to say whatever you want; at this point your words are like water off a duck’s back to me. You believe what you believe and you stick to your guns and I respect that in a way, however you refuse to acknowledge the lack of evidence and this hurts your position. I don’t need to say that this is not an issue of whether child abuse exists; it is a matter of the SRA and the implication of Masonic involvement that has drawn me into it. Having said that, I have some information that I feel is relevant.


from: www.psychologicalscience.org...

The controversy over the validity of repressed and recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) has been extraordinarily bitter. Yet data on cognitive functioning in people reporting repressed and recovered memories of trauma have been strikingly scarce. Recent laboratory studies have been designed to test hypotheses about cognitive mechanisms that ought to be operative if people can repress and recover memories of trauma or if they can form false memories of trauma. Contrary to clinical lore, these studies have shown that people reporting CSA histories are not characterized by a superior ability to forget trauma-related material. Other studies have shown that individuals reporting recovered memories of either CSA or abduction by space aliens are characterized by heightened proneness to form false memories in certain laboratory tasks. Although cognitive psychology methods cannot distinguish true memories from false ones, these methods can illuminate mechanisms for remembering and forgetting among people reporting histories of trauma.


Eudaimonia: This is what I mean by “credible resources.” Mmkay?

So as you can see it is theoretically possible, but not probable that all these people spontaneously remember these horrible things. Then there’s this:



from: answers.org...

Corroborative evidence: what it isn't. True believers, as we already stated, offer four main "proofs" for SRA: (1) all conspiracies are secret and unknown; (2) evidence against a story is evidence that a satanist planted false evidence; (3) only a conspiracy such as true believers describe has the capability of destroying all the evidence; and (4) the very people who should be fighting this are part of it. To this can be added (5) the firm belief that only therapists can tell that victims are telling the truth; (6) children (whether physiologically children or the fractured child personalities of an MPD client) don't lie about such horrible things and no one would make up these horrific tales; (7) accused perpetrators' refusal to confess show the depths of depravity to which they have descended; (8) non-determinative evidence validates the conspiracy (what a true believer calls an abuse scar a skeptic calls an appendix operation scar); (9) individual occult-related criminal acts validate the whole conspiracy; and (10) the conspiracy explains the abduction of thousands of children each year.

Trying to disprove a negative. In addition to these ten methods of support for SRA conspiracy theories, true believers often demand that doubters disprove their theory. That is, the investigator is required to adduce overwhelming, unequivocal evidence that the conspiracy can't possibly be happening or else the true believer will consider his own view vindicated. This matches the absurdity of a man, charged at random, having to prove he didn't kill a murder victim last January 24. Fortunately, our justice system is based on the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty. In the same manner, the more reasonable theory should be adopted unless there is overwhelming evidence in favor of the more sensationalistic. The "evidence" in favor of SRA conspiracies is negligible, not overwhelming.

Conspiricists' fallacies. Logical examination of each of these ten "proofs" quickly reveals their fatal flaws. While conspiracies are certainly secret, they cannot continue to exist and function in society without leaving a trail. For example, the FBI may not have known how extensive the Mafia's network was until years of painstaking investigation and the confessions of some members, but the Mafia left plenty of physical evidence in the form of bodies, bullet holes, arson cases, beatings, and a host of other illegal activities. No one has found Jimmy Hoffa's body, but at least there is evidence that he existed. Statistically, such an invincible secrecy is impossible. Let's say there are 100,000 adult survivors. They represent only a small subgroup of the conspiracy. They are the ones who were not killed, who eventually escaped the control of the cult, who got into therapy, who "remembered" their abuse, and who then were willing to tell about it. If we peg the average number of abusive events per survivor at fifty (a conservative figure), that would give us 5,000,000 criminal events over the last fifty years in America alone. And not a shred of corroborative evidence?


Hmmm... doesn’t sound unreasonable to me. And I’m not the only one, either:


from: books.guardian.co.uk...

...The more rigorously Medway searches for satanism, the less of it he finds. Even in 19th-century Paris - the place where many of us think satanism "really existed", as in J K Huysman's novel Là-Bas, with its notoriously authentic Black Mass scene - satanism turns out to have been largely the invention of a journalistic fraudster named Leo Taxil...

*snippage*

...the real meat of Medway's book is much more serious: the recent "satanic abuse" scares. It was a Canadian husband-and-wife team - Lawrence and Michelle Pazder, therapist and patient respectively - who launched the notion of "ritualised abuse" in 1980, building on Michelle's alleged recollections of satanism in their book Michelle Remembers. It all went with the now discredited craze for "recovered memories" of child abuse. The combination of Christian fundamentalism and Oprah Winfrey-style psychotherapy was hugely powerful, and before long there was no stopping the black rumour-mill.

Stories began to circulate of women who were "breeders" or "brood mares", producing unrecorded babies and foetuses purely for satanic purposes. A man named Mike Warnke maintained that satanists carried out 2 million human sacrifices a year in the US alone. After telling the tragic story of a little boy named Jeffy, Warnke would hand out envelopes to collect money "for all the children like Jeffy", which brought in around $800,000 in 1991. The year before, the Bishop of Oxford had told Radio 4 listeners that by the year 2000 satanists would be sacrificing one baby per minute. Another informant revealed that satanic MPs were carrying out human sacrifices in the House of Commons.

*snippage*

...Medway is, of course, not denying the reality of child abuse, but he convincingly refutes its ritualistic occult role within some nebulous thing called satanism. In fact satanism does exist, after a fashion, in the relatively respectable form of the Church of Satan. Founded in 1966, it is sufficiently recognised to have conducted the service for at least one American military funeral. But the church's creed - basically one of materialistic self-interest, a sort of Ayn Rand philosophy with horns on - has nothing to do with abusing children. The whole business of satanic child abuse has only arisen with the recent hysteria about child abuse in general, in a neat instance of what can only be called demonisation.

Medway shows that religious fundamentalists have done far more practical harm than satanists, with low-church exorcists having a particularly bad record. Throughout this book, highly entertaining stories go hand in hand with far less amusing ones. A scare story about demonically possessed pets (possibly purchased from satanist pet shops, for which we should all be vigilant) occurs amid reports of exorcists gouging a woman's eyes out, holding a three-year-old over a fire so she could feel "the heat of Hell", forcing a crucifix up a girl's nose so it entered her brain, and hitting another "possessed" child around the head with a block of concrete.

*snippage*

In its distinctive way - altogether less Pulitzer-winning in style, more English, more eccentric, somehow more homegrown - this book is an occult counterpart to Ethan Watters and Richard Ofshe's demolition of "recovered memory syndrome" in their milestone study Making Monsters. Medway occasionally lets himself be diverted into trivia, but Lure of the Sinister is a sane, impressively researched and important study that decisively bangs another nail into the coffin of "satanic abuse".


Let me reiterate something: A lack of sources and proof does not constitute proof. You want people to believe you, dig up stories that support your position; not just stories, but studies. Case studies, investigations, psychologists’ reports on patients and their experiences; credible information – not some Bible-thumpers’ web site, claiming as fact what they cannot even reasonably demonstrate to be so, much less compellingly.

[edit on 8/26/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Axeman, are you calling Christian masons "bible thumpers" too or just those who do want the truth to be known?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by suzy ryan
Axeman, are you calling Christian masons "bible thumpers" too or just those who do want the truth to be known?


Bible thumper = Fundamentalist Christian.

I'm certain that there are Masons who would qualify as Bible thumpers, but I have yet to meet one.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:28 PM
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If its bunk, why are you guys falling all over yourselves to debunk it? Seems to me you would be better served to blow it off. You draw more attention to the topic, and arouse more suspicion (especially among conspiricists) by going on and on.

Those who engage in SRA are extemely secretive, and I believe swear their initiates to silence on pain of death. They've been around for a long, long time, have been persecuted severely, and know how to cover their tracks to protect their own. Sound familiar?





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